[00:00:05] Ray Latif: Hey folks, I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of BevNET's Taste Radio podcast. And you're tuned to the latest episode of Elevator Talk, the series that profiles early stage and disruptive brands from across the food and beverage industry. Today's episode will focus on five food brands whose entrepreneurs will have an opportunity to hear feedback and advice from our co-host for this episode. That's Rifle Hughes, who's one of the co-founders of Integral CPG. Rifle, so great to see you again.
[00:00:36] Rifle Hughes: Hey, Ray. Glad to be back. I think it's been a year and a half or so, so excited to dive in again.
[00:00:40] Ray Latif: Yes, indeed. You are a multi-episode guest co-host of this show, and so you know what it's all about. And you know all about the food and beverage industry because you've been in this business for a very long time. That's not to call you old. I'm just saying you're experienced. That's the way I took it, but it works. Please tell us about your experience.
[00:01:00] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, so I've been, as you alluded to, I've been in the industry a little over two decades now. And primarily, I've always had a role helping brands identify growth strategies and largely around innovation. So a couple of years ago, my co-founder and I, Glenn Pappalardo, we founded Integral CPG to really help brands find more actionable paths to that same growth strategy and innovation journey as they're looking to find sort of their next stage with their brand.
[00:01:30] Ray Latif: You know, it's a difficult business that our founders are in, CPG that is, because there are so many things that can go wrong. And there is no founder that I've ever spoken with who said, I have 100% track record on getting everything right. But what are the most common mistakes that you've seen early stage companies make and how can they avoid them?
[00:01:52] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things, and this is so true today, is sort of not having a plan, but then having too much of a plan. So kind of going off of that sheer intuition, that passion that drives founders is a powerful spark to begin the journey, and then you start the process, but then sort of over-indexing as you've got it all figured out, you know the way, and then not reacting to the market conditions. So especially now, where there's so much volatility and change with consumers and market conditions, economies, climate change, everything that's coming at us all the time, businesses, brands have to be nimble and react to those conditions. So yeah, just staying too close to lockdown, not learning from actually what's going out there tends to be a recipe for about to hit a brick wall.
[00:02:44] Ray Latif: Yeah, and I also think coming out of the gate strong when it comes to your branding as much as you can as it relates to your ingredients and how your product tastes is really important because now more than ever, the industry and store shelves are clogged. There are so many brands out there. There's so much competition. You know a thing or two about branding and package design. Just as quickly before we get to our first guest, what really, in your mind, what's required for great branding, great package design for early stage brands?
[00:03:19] Rifle Hughes: It all comes down to some sort of distinctiveness and differentiation, the way it would be commonly phrased or recommended. So really interrogating, okay, this is my idea. But look at all the products that are on the shelf today. If you can't very powerfully and with lots of challenge of people trying to beat up what you're suggesting, show that you've got something to offer to consumers that isn't already the same as four or five other brands there, it's going to be a tough, tough, tough road. So finding a way to truly stand out and then solve a pain point in a job that hasn't been answered for consumers yet.
[00:03:58] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think that's the most important thing because, you know, people have products, new products that they bring to the market. And in all likelihood, there's 10 other products just like it. But how do you stand out? What's different about your ingredient deck? What's different about your nutrition deck? What's different about your packaging, your ease of use? So these are all good, good points to make. And I'm sure you're going to make a few more for the rest of this episode. But are you ready to meet our first guest? Let's do it. Let's do it. Indeed. That person's name is Wyman Shaw. He's the CEO of Statesman Marinades. Wyman, it is great to see you.
[00:04:36] Wyman Shaw: Hey, Ray. Hey, Rifle. Thanks for having me on. Good to see you too.
[00:04:39] Ray Latif: Yeah. Thanks so much for being on the show. Statesman Marinades. I have a sense of what you sell, but not necessarily why it's different. So please tell us all about what you do.
[00:04:49] Wyman Shaw: Created the company in 2023 and doing it I've been in restaurants for a majority of my career, chef by trade. You know, I was seeing and hearing a lot of these problems of people's busy lives and, and how they're, they're struggling to figure out what they want to have and what they want to eat and, and, and how they don't really have the time. And so I tried, I'm trying to, trying to solve the problem by doing a 30 minute marinade. So you can literally marinate something, any kind of, any kind of food product and it's ready in 30 minutes. So it kind of solves that.
[00:05:31] Ray Latif: Well, everyone's on the go these days. Everyone's looking for convenience. But as Rifle pointed out earlier, you know, taste is so important. How do your products differentiate in terms of taste?
[00:05:41] Wyman Shaw: Taste? Oh, they are extremely flavorful. I'm gluten-free, vegan, cholesterol-free, fat-free. I do a lot of traveling in my experiences, and this is kind of what drove me to give the multiple flavors that we do. We do a carne asada, teriyaki, Italian steakhouse, and Mediterranean citrus.
[00:06:08] Ray Latif: Before we get to Rifle, just quickly, where are you sold? What's your distribution footprint look like and what's your price point per bottle?
[00:06:16] Wyman Shaw: We do two different formats. We do a 5-ounce and then also a 12-ounce bottle. The 5-ounce actually marinates up to 2 pounds of food, and the 12-ounce marinates up to 5 pounds of food. So it's very, a little bit goes a long way with it. And currently, I am selling through my personal website. We're on Amazon, Etsy, and then we're also in about approximately 40 retail locations across the country.
[00:06:44] Ray Latif: And I'd assume you're trying to get into more stores, yes?
[00:06:47] Wyman Shaw: Oh, for sure. Yes. It's a big focus.
[00:06:50] Ray Latif: Yeah. Rifle. Marinades are tough for me because I don't want to do the work on my own. But then again, you know, going back to what we talked about before, you go to the grocery store, you see a sea of marinades and you don't know which one to pick necessarily. You know, what are your initial thoughts on Stateman? And, you know, how do you see it as being a standout brand or potentially standout brand in this category?
[00:07:14] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, so the center of your sort of pain point you keyed on, I think is spot on. We're all seeking ways to build flavor and everyone has less and less time and we're on the go. So like that central notion of how do we take something that. would normally take maybe six hours at the least, more likely kind of an overnight, throw it in a Ziploc bag and put it in the refrigerator kind of thing. What's your magic there without getting into, you know, the secrets of your food science? How do you, how do you make it work in 30 minutes?
[00:07:45] Wyman Shaw: It's just, it's concentrated. So, I use a lot of my ingredients or whole ingredients and they, you know, when they work together, they literally do come together and it actually penetrates the food as opposed to coating it like a lot of marinades do. So, you know, my main ingredient is tamari, which is a gluten-free. Um, so, and then I also double that up with a little bit, a little bit of, uh, anchovy free Worcestershire. So it really just gets in there.
[00:08:17] Rifle Hughes: Got it. It's a powerful stuff. Well, that, I think that's, that's really what, what struck me when you were describing it and did, did some, did some digging before, uh, coming onto the show here today too. And so I was kind of curious, it, it. It's a powerful statement. Not hitting me square between the eyes in your packaging. I was kind of curious if you've had any feedback on, it's a super easy thing to explain like you did. I'm wondering if you've had any feedback. Is the power of your brand and your product connecting at shelf or even on the website? Did people get it?
[00:08:54] Wyman Shaw: Yeah, they are. We tried to create, we actually did exactly what you were talking about. We went to the grocery stores, we were looking at what's on the shelf and like how can we differentiate? How can we stand out above and beyond it? And so, that's why we went for more of a luxury look with the gold, the black and the clean and simple. Because a lot of other brands out there, their labels are just so convoluted and they're trying to get the point across. on everything that they do and it just gets messy. And so we were just trying to stand out by being the clean one and the one that looks more boutique on the shelf.
[00:09:32] Ray Latif: Rifle, can I ask you a question? This is a product that I believe would be ideal to be merchandised in two places in the store, obviously, with other marinades on the ambient shelf and in that sauce space, whatever you want to call it. And then certainly with fresh meat. But, you know, I'm sure you've talked to brands and founders who have wanted that shelf space, wanted that, you know, to be merchandised in two different parts of the store. But it's kind of difficult, isn't it?
[00:10:02] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, it's a good, the notion's really good. You're hitting people where they're faced with a challenge. When they're at that meat counter and they're picking up their proteins, right here is the convenient solution. You've got it, but maybe you don't know fully what you're going to do with it yet. Um, finding them there makes a lot of sense. It tends to be a challenge to to merchandise in in 2 areas. You know, quite often it's represented by completely different buyers. So you can get into that that center store aisle with the traditional buyer, but now you're. you're trying to fight it out with the 80 other products to the left and the right and get your story across. And then that's that perimeter of the store's management by different groups. And so as a small brand, that is a tough one, but it's doable and it probably gives credence to kind of stay small, not expand too fast, you know, really build a partnership with the key retailers that are where you're working with first and maximize velocity there before trying to open more and more and more doors.
[00:11:13] Ray Latif: And Wyman, what's been your pitch? What's been your most effective pitch to retail buyers? Is it the convenience? Is it the speed of the marinade itself? Is it the flavor? Why are they buying your product?
[00:11:24] Wyman Shaw: Actually, all of it that you just mentioned. It is literally the speed, the efficiency, and the quality of the ingredients. And also the fact that it does fit a lot of dietary restrictions as well.
[00:11:35] Ray Latif: I think for me, and I've mentioned this in the podcast a number of times, pretty much every week nowadays, but taste is king. It always has been. And you really have to convince people that this is a product that's going to taste great for them to spend their money on it. So how are you? Are you demoing? How are you demoing? Is it with steak? Is it with fish? I mean, what's your preferred method?
[00:11:58] Wyman Shaw: steak, chicken, shrimp, you know, because Mediterranean citrus goes amazing with chicken and shrimp. The carne asada goes great with pork and steak. The Italian steakhouse is amazing on chicken wings, like the best ones you ever have. And then the teriyaki, you know, you know, a lot of different Asian cuisines too. So I would do like a stir fry or things like that.
[00:12:21] Ray Latif: Rifle, just back to you for a sec. The words, 30 minute marinades, I think might, I don't know. I mean, what are your feelings? Is there any kind of conflict in between the convenience and the sophistication of what this brand is all about? Can those two things align in a way that is really intuitive to the consumer?
[00:12:46] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, I think so. I don't think it's so black and white that, I think consumers could even be lowering their bar of expectations. They still want the flavor. They need it needed to pass a certain level. But are they going to expect it to be the same thing of someone that's, you know, building up like a burrito over days or something? So it's like there's there's we all are comfortable at lowering our expectations and a trade off for convenience. So I think that's fine. It wouldn't it wouldn't put me off.
[00:13:17] Ray Latif: Wyman, I can't believe we're out of time, but this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for being with us today. Please stay in touch and let us know if we can help in any way.
[00:13:26] Wyman Shaw: Great, Ray. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thank you, Rifle. Pleasure meeting you.
[00:13:33] Ray Latif: All right. Great start to the show. Let's keep it going with our next guest. That man is Charles Devine. He is the co-founder of Harlem Baking Company. Charles, it's great to see you.
[00:13:43] Speaker 1: Great to see you. Nice to meet you in person earlier today, Ray, and wonderful to meet you as well.
[00:13:50] Ray Latif: Good to know you. Yes. Charles is actually here at BevNET headquarters. There was a little bit of a mix up in terms of whether, you know, this was in a virtual show or somewhere you need to be in person. And Charles is just like, screw it. I'm driving to Boston. That's it. And here he is at BevNET headquarters. And I'm so happy to meet him in person. I didn't get to meet you at the Summer Fancy Food Show where I was introduced to Harlem Baking Company and blown away by what you guys sell. Tell us all about the company.
[00:14:20] Speaker 1: As of last year, I was a restauranteur still in New York City and things were, you know, I'd been in the business for 25 years. We survived the pandemic and we had a really, in 2020 when everything was shut down, We stayed open. We did so by, you know, sending meals to health care workers through donations and whatnot. One problem we had is we had an amazing dessert portfolio. And when we delivered our desserts, they would arrive in a mess. So we brainstormed ideas and we decided to bake them in little glass jars. Here we are. And you know it was it was just something to do to fix a problem. But then we got so many great responses from the community and other stores wanting to carry them. Restaurants wanting to use them because they had shortage and stuff that it became very very evident to me. and to my partner, Tom, whom you met at the Fancy Food Show, that there was a gap in the packaged goods as far as desserts were concerned. And we just went with it, followed the breadcrumbs. And to be honest with you, it's been, I never believed that I would be a brand marketer, creator, but here we are, no more restaurants. Survived a pandemic, couldn't survive a New York City landlord, but here we are and now fully focused on the Harlem Baking Company and we're having a great time and just doing some great stuff.
[00:15:50] Ray Latif: I have a thousand questions, but I already know some of the answers, except for a couple. Where are you sold? What's your price point per jar?
[00:15:59] Speaker 1: Okay, so jars are being sold anywhere from $4.99 to $7. We are in multiple channels. We're all over the place. We are online. We are on Uncommon Goods. We did some runs on QVC, traditional retail, restaurants, hotels, theaters, you know, a small a large demographic but you know everywhere in a little bit and it just that's really one of the things that's been so much fun with the Heart of Baking company is that it's such a super premium product that it fits in a lot of different niches and it's also the way it's delivered and the way the rest of the operators can store it in a freezer and then slack it out. She's very, very customer friendly, but also what's amazing is what's inside the jar. And that's what really separates us from everybody else, because there is, you know, this might be a question, but there's 25 plus years of New York City restaurant that goes in these jars. And we really are, as you've probably tasted them, amazing product.
[00:17:03] Ray Latif: I have tasted them. They're incredible products. The key lime pie just blew me away. The mousse. So Charles was so kind to send me some samples. And anyone who came near them just got the death stare from me because I was just like, these are not for you. These are for me. Charles sent them to me. It has my name on the package. Don't even think about touching them. No, that's not true. I shared some of them, but you really make amazing products. Like I said, I have a thousand more questions, Rifle, but I know you have a lot to ask as well. So please ask. Ask away.
[00:17:35] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, so Charles, yeah, I'm admittedly a little jealous that I didn't get to sample some, so maybe it's a little plug, but let's hook up afterwards. But yeah, it sounds like most of where you're fitting in are kind of food service and specialty channels today.
[00:17:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
[00:17:53] Rifle Hughes: What does the three years from now, crystal ball, and of course, who knows, it's probably pretty fuzzy, but like what does success for you on a three year timeline look like? What's the shape of the business?
[00:18:06] Speaker 1: I think Harlem Baking Company can become an everyday name for quality desserts for households all over the United States. I mean, again, the fact is we are, you buy us like you buy us at a grocery store in the yogurt, right? But you get home and you get to enjoy something really special. You don't have to go to a bakery. You don't have to spend tons of money to be able to get a wonderful, premium-quality, restaurant-quality dessert. And what's great about it as well is that it's portion control. So, you know, you're getting your jar. It's an indulgent treat, right? We're not pretending to be anything that we're not. I've got customers in New York City that, when I drop the dessert, they get so excited, because they're like, it's the real stuff, where they look back, and they're like, oh, look, there's eggs, and there's cream, and there's wheat, and there's all the stuff that we love. So, really, it's something that we want to be We want to become, you know, the place to go for quality single-serve desserts that can be enjoyed, you know, at home for parties and whatnot. And we're also, you know, on Common Goods, we just started selling with them. We're selling them little six-packs. So the gifting opportunities is incredible, and we're doing very well there, surprisingly very well.
[00:19:27] Rifle Hughes: Very cool. Yeah, I've encountered some products like this, and certainly it's a little bit more established. In Europe, there are products sold in more retail settings like that that are- Absolutely, absolutely. Like you said. And the occasion, the pain point, desserts and baking are hard. People don't know how to do it. It's chemistry versus savory cooking. It's far more approachable by a lot of people. The occasion makes sense. I think what I'm curious of a little bit is, there's solutions for this, is what's the shelf life, and then how does that come into play as you start to spread your tendrils outside of the New York City area?
[00:20:06] Speaker 1: Right, well, that's where the Harlem Baking Company also has a secret weapon, and that's called the freezer. Everything that we make is immediately flash frozen. And surprisingly, I think that there is a sense in this country that frozen food product is inferior or the corners have been cut. But actually, it locks in the flavors for us. But not only that, more importantly, it allows us to not have to use any preservatives, all real ingredients. Because I send this to you in California, you treat it just like ice cream. From the moment that it leaves my warehouse to the moment you arrive, it's all frozen. So the clock doesn't start. And it's great for restaurateurs and delis and and small shops like that, because the way they can handle it is they'll put five on the refrigerated case, and then the rest in the freezer, and then they slack it out. So let's say the quinoa pie is selling because it's the summer, and the carrot cake is not, then you don't have to worry. And that's the way we approach that whole very, very important aspect of our growth.
[00:21:15] Rifle Hughes: Makes a ton of sense.
[00:21:16] Speaker 1: About the key lime pie, can I just say something? Very cool. So we started working with a distributor. You know who's selling this right now? The Miami Dolphin Stadium. I don't know in what capacity, but it's really wild that a Florida team is buying their key lime pie from New York City to sell at their venue. Isn't that cool? So, I mean, you know, initially, I'm excited, like, we're in an NFL stadium. Yeah, but wait, actually, the more important thing is, like, we're in Florida, and I'm sure they've been looking for Key Lime Pine. This is really... explains why Ray likes it so much. Sorry, I just wanted to share that, because that's very exciting to me.
[00:21:56] Ray Latif: If it can sell in Miami, I'm sure, Key Lime Pie, that is, it can sell anywhere, because they're pretty specific about their flavors down there. Yes, they are. But, you know, I, again, I really love what you're doing, Charles, and I love when I encounter those portion control desserts, like you mentioned. I think there's a brand called Petit Pol. I'm pronouncing it the very French way of its pronunciation. And Maxime and his team have just done a really good job of introducing a very indulgent dessert or a brand of very indulgent desserts that aren't very big. They're just a nice little after dinner kind of meal. And there are more brands like his coming to market, including yours. And I think in addition to the flavor, the brand and the story has a lot to do with why people are interested. You chose the name Harlem Baking Company. What does it mean? And how does it relate to the brand and what you're doing?
[00:22:57] Speaker 1: So the restaurant when these were created was in East Harlem. I lived in East Harlem. My kids went to school at the time in East Harlem. It had become quite a huge community for me. And when we The restaurant's name at the time that closed at the end of last year was the Lexington Pizza Parlor. And when we tried to find a different brand, I've always loved the story of Harlem, which was really a melting pot where you had multiple different generations of immigrants living there. There is a sense of incredible amount of culture and excitement. And it's really this whole area is being revitalized. And I felt to me it made complete sense that we are creating them here. We're part of the community here. And we're just going to call it a Harlem Baking company. And you'll notice there's also a little bit of Fedora there. There is something very important to me about about history and about who you are and integrity. And I really wanted to just not create some fancy idea about what we were selling but more about who we were where we were coming from and to grow with a brand that way. We have you know, experience questions like that on a regular basis. And it actually has reinforced my commitment to Harlem Baking to getting more involved in the community there, even though I don't have a restaurant. And I'm very excited. To me, it's a little bit like what Brooklyn was 20 years ago. And the name really has been special for us.
[00:24:34] Ray Latif: That's amazing. I love that story. And I love the way that you explained Harlem as a real melting pot and a place that is sort of becoming more of a hotbed for innovation and entrepreneurship.
[00:24:47] Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's incredible what's going out there.
[00:24:50] Ray Latif: We're out of time, but just quickly, do you have your own manufacturing facility? Do you have your own kitchen? Are you using a shared kitchen?
[00:24:55] Speaker 1: We use a shared kitchen in Queens right now. Since we lost the restaurant, we had to kind of pivot. And it's been really great because the help there that we get and the knowledge, but we're in the process of looking for a co-packer because eight, nine hours in the kitchen is becoming, it wears on you pretty quickly. We're up for the task and it's been a joy. And nothing like being hands on, being in the product, selling it, delivering it as an entrepreneur, you really get a sense of whether or not you want to do this. And I'm still looking for a reason to quit. But people like yourself and people that taste our product continuously drives us to push this forward. So I'm very, very excited about what the next year has to come.
[00:25:39] Ray Latif: Please, for the love of God, don't quit because you make an amazing product, amazing products, and I see a great runway for Harlem Baking Company. You're not only a great founder and a good person, Charles, you're a great ambassador for your brand. that the energy you bring and the excitement that you that you have shown in this episode is just so palpable. So please keep that going. And can't wait to see you again in the near future. I got to come out. You came out to my house. I got to come to yours now.
[00:26:10] Speaker 1: So I'll keep you posted and I'll get right for some samples. So I'll just have to get his address at some point.
[00:26:16] Ray Latif: All right, Charles, great seeing you. Thanks so much. All right. What a great start to the show. Let's keep things going with Maxie Heidenblatt, who is the founder and CEO of Häppy Candy. Maxie, great to see you.
[00:26:29] Speaker 2: Hi, Ray. Hi, Rifle. Great to see you.
[00:26:31] Ray Latif: And Häppy Candy, what a wonderful, amazing name for a brand. How did you get that brand? How did you trademark it?
[00:26:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I came up with the brand name actually as an idea during the pandemic when we were all lacking some happy moments. And I was toying with the idea of launching my own candy business for a while. And back then during the pandemic, I came up with Häppy Candy to create more happy moments for all of us.
[00:27:00] Ray Latif: Yeah, and you trademarked it, yes? This is your brand?
[00:27:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's protected. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, which the umlaut helped with that. Because happy as you can imagine, there's a lot of happy kitchen, happy baby whatnot. But Häppy Candy because of the umlaut that helped us actually.
[00:27:17] Ray Latif: The umlaut over the A in happy, which is fantastic. You know, there are so many more better for you candy brands coming to market. And it is so timely because I think, you know, parents want to give their kids better candy. Adults want to eat better candy, not the candy of their youth, because all that stuff is just so full of, let's call it what it is, garbage, stuff you shouldn't be eating. How did you go about formulating? What was your vision for this brand? You know, how did you think about the ingredients behind Häppy Candy?
[00:27:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, so just for context, I'm German by origin, and I grew up in Germany where gummy candy is just part of our culture. Haribo, for instance, is a German company too. And so I grew up loving it. But when I had an autoimmune condition diagnosed, I had to make better health choices and cut down my sugar intake and worked with a nutritionist, and so I stopped eating candy altogether. And when I came across Better For You gummy candy, and as you mentioned, Ray, that category is just booming, I was really excited because now I could have candy again, gummy candy. However, I was quickly disappointed by fake aftertaste from stevia, from monk fruit, from all these fake sugars, as I like to call them, and side effects like an upset stomach and not feeling great after having them from all those sugar alcohols like erythritol. And so I said there must be a better way to create a gummy candy that, yes, contains less sugar, but does not use any of these fake sugars. And to answer your question, that's how I came up with the idea of the formula and found a great manufacturer to work with on bringing this idea to life.
[00:29:01] Ray Latif: We tried some of your products in a past episode of Taste Radio, and I was pretty amazed at the fact that they were so sweet and indulgent, but without all those fake sugars that you mentioned, and 70% less sugar than typical or competing products. You know, this rifle, we've mentioned it a couple of times now, the better for you candy space is booming. And you gotta differentiate, you gotta stand out, but then you're also fighting the big guys. You're fighting the traditional players that own a lot of the shelf space, that have a lot of marketing muscle. But I think Häppy Candy, I think this has got some serious legs here. What are your thoughts on the brand?
[00:29:44] Rifle Hughes: You know, I tend to agree that We're seeing a moment in Better For You Candy. There was one, I don't know, maybe like 10 or so years ago that I don't think got traction in the same way, but whether it's Unreal or I know Ray and you and I are friends of Better Sour and fans of the brand. Modern consumers like yourself, Maxie, there's different nutritional aspects, but we still want that fun. We still want that excitement. You want to reward yourself, your family, your kids. you know it just a great piece of candy just makes you smile it's it's it's you might say makes you happy but so the legacy brands they have all the distribution and the muscle and the power but there's they don't really speak to the modern consumer or resonate with them so I think it's a great moment and we're seeing it happen. And by the way, so my mother is from Munich. I grew up on eating gummy bears as well. So yeah, definitely celebrate it.
[00:30:45] Speaker 2: Oh, that's great. So you're familiar with the obsession with gummy candy in Germany. Yeah, it's a big thing. And Reifel, to your point, I think consumer demands are changing. Yes, we all know Americans want less sugar and that's been addressed with previous better for you gummy candy brands and there are a lot of great brands out there. But there's also an emerging trend of Americans turning away from these fake sugars and diet products. I think we're moving away from that diet culture and it all started with aspartame and diet coke and we all know it's now we know it's not good for you. And I think the same applies to stevia monk fruit that just don't taste great erythritol allulose which by the way is banned in Canada and in Europe, and is on the blacklist of other, you know, natural grocers and retailers so. Just living without any of these fake ingredients and creating a gummy candy that we, by the way, only use 10 simple ingredients and you can pronounce all of them. We're non-GMO and we don't use any of these dyes. I think that's something you kind of implicitly mentioned or alluded to, Rifle, as well. which is part of these fake ingredients and the traditional gummy candy brands that use these artificial dyes that are really not good for you and your kids either. So Häppy Candy is, I wanna argue, the cleanest candy out there with 10 simple ingredients, none of the fake sugars, no artificial dyes, and it's all non-GMO ingredients. So we really took it to the next level and created, in our view, the next generation of gummy candy.
[00:32:23] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, that's fantastic. Part of, I think, part of the challenge of, like, you just were just alluding to all of these sugar alternatives, and there's a full spectrum there. We've been on this journey for a long time. I think part of the challenge that You know, consumers certainly don't realize this, but brands don't as well as sugar is just not for sweetness. It actually provides functional structure. It is the it is the skeleton, the lattice work that a lot of foods are built on, even like baked goods. They perform so much better in sugar because it can bind to bring things together. So it's not just sweetness. So long way of getting to my question of. With that heritage Haribo experience that I love as a little child, how is the texture as you're winding that down? Are you able to maintain a great gummy experience by also dialing down a functional sugar?
[00:33:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. It took us a while, quite frankly, to get to a really good texture that is very close to your Haribo experience. I will mention, though, that we do not use any gelatin. So it's also vegan, our gummy candy. We don't use any animal-based products in our gummy candy. And so it was really hard to get to a chewy texture that's not sticking to your teeth, but we nailed it, I wanna say. And I'm happy to follow up with some samples and send them to you, Rifle, as well, so you can try and compare it to your Haribo childhood experience. But I think the texture is really great because what you will find with other vegan gummy candies that it typically sticks to your teeth, because they use starch, We use something called pectin, which is from the peels of citrus fruits, apples, and it's a great gelling agent. And combined with the real sugar we're using, just a lot less of it, we created a really good body, gummy candy body, that has the texture that is very close to a regular gummy candy.
[00:34:19] Ray Latif: If I were a retail buyer sitting across from you and you shared your story about the origins of Häppy Candy and why it's different, I would probably put the brand on my shelves immediately. And you are on a lot of shelves in the country. You're everywhere in all the fresh market stores. Is that right?
[00:34:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So we launched with the fresh market. We're at ShopRite. We did the innovation set, It's Proud. growing quite a bit. And yeah, thank you. And I appreciate that feedback if you were a buyer.
[00:34:54] Ray Latif: Well, I think the reason is because you've concisely and very articulately described what the problem was and how you're solving it. And the fact that these are products that are not compromising on what people want out of traditional candies, but also without all the junk in them as well. And the fact that you have a fun name, you have fun packaging. But what's really moving the needle for the retail buyer? When you went into the fresh market and you were trying to sell the brand and make sure that you could get into all their store shelves, what was really resonating with the retail buyer specifically? I know it's easy to say this entire package, but were there one or two things that really stood out?
[00:35:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's what you and Rifle mentioned earlier as well. How are you different from what we already have on shelf in order to help us drive incremental sales? Meaning, how do you get buyers, consumers, sorry, to come into the store and then now they're starting to buy gummy candy even though they have stopped consuming it in the past because of sugar artificial dyes or alternative sweeteners. And now they're having Häppy Candy because it combines that lower sugar with clean ingredients, so the incremental sales I think is a big driver, but also just standing out. We come in rainbow packaging, it's Häppy Candy, it's heart-shaped candy, it's fun, it's cute, and most importantly it tastes really good as well.
[00:36:21] Ray Latif: Yeah, the best part for me is that it feels like a candy that you're familiar with. The packaging just speaks to, okay, I know what this is, I know what I'm getting into. And then you go closer at the packaging and you're like, oh, wow, it's actually better for me, much better for me than what's out there. So I think that entices a lot of people to buy. I guess the one hiccup is price point, right? You can go buy, a package of gummies filled to the gills with artificial ingredients and it's like $1.99. What's the price point for Häppy Candy?
[00:36:58] Speaker 2: So we retail for 1.8 ounces at $3.99. But yeah, you're making a great point. We're trying to be more accessible. And we actually launched mini bags, which are smaller in size. And so we sell those very soon and variety packs too to make it more accessible and working on that.
[00:37:19] Ray Latif: Rome wasn't built in a day and Häppy Candy has a lot of room to grow. And I'm so happy to see where you are right now in terms of your foundation. I'm excited to see where the Brandt Gehrs from here. If there's any way we can help along your journey, please don't hesitate to ask. Reach out anytime. You can send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. And certainly we'll do our best to point you in the right direction. And of course, now you have a new fan in Rifle who can do the same.
[00:37:47] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Rifle, I'll send you some samples.
[00:37:49] Rifle Hughes: Oh, I love this. It's turning into the Rifle Begs for Samples show.
[00:37:52] Speaker: Thanks.
[00:37:54] Ray Latif: Maxie, thank you so much for being on the show and please, please stay in touch.
[00:37:58] Speaker 2: Thank you again. Thanks for having me.
[00:38:01] Ray Latif: Let's keep things going with Jane Coxwell, who is the founder of OCO. Jane, it's great to see you.
[00:38:09] Speaker 3: Hi, Ray. Hi, Ryan. Nice to see you guys too.
[00:38:12] Ray Latif: This is an example of a brand that I didn't know anything about, but I got an email. I think it was from your PR team, Jane, and I didn't see anything but the packaging. I didn't know anything about the brand. I could see that it was some sort of dip or marinade. It came in a little bit of a tub, but I was just like, whoa, this is awesome packaging. I want to learn more about it. Please tell us all about what you do.
[00:38:35] Speaker 3: I'm really happy to hear that. So Oko, we are a line of fresh vegetable blends that kind of do it all. They work as a dip, they work as a spread, they work as a sauce, as even a soup. I'm a chef by trade. I've been a chef for over 20 years. And this is a product that I've had in my kitchen that I've used in my kitchen forever. I used to be a chef on private yachts and so like limited time and limited space meant that before trips I would make lots of variations of this product and then when the time came I had a very quick you know solution to like I said, a soup or a sauce or a dip, like send out a credit update, whatever it was. And they've really become a staple in my cooking process, in my kitchen. And we really, our mission is to make eating well effortless. So they are incredibly healthy. They're fully organic. They are free from any dyes, from any fillers, from anything like that. There's really just nothing in them that you couldn't buy at a farmer's market. What was really important to me when we were developing them is that I didn't make a version of what I was using in the kitchen. I made like exactly the same thing, which is now what people are able to buy. And it makes me really, really happy to hear that you like the packaging because really the packaging is just the product. It's a clear It's a clear tub and so the burst of color that you see is just the natural product coming through. So it's all nature doing the work in the packaging.
[00:40:17] Ray Latif: from 10 yards away, you might mistake it as being a hummus because it comes in that plastic tub with a plastic cover. And it looks like it's about eight, nine ounces per tub. I think it's nine ounces, is that right?
[00:40:29] Speaker 3: Nine ounces, yeah.
[00:40:30] Ray Latif: Yeah, and there's three varieties. There's a beet ginger blend, a carrot turmeric blend, and a cauliflower lemon blend. You, Jane, explained that there's a number of ways you could use these. What's the primary way that people consume these products?
[00:40:42] Speaker 3: I think the intro is usually kind of as a dip. That's probably the most accessible way to use it. But as a source, as a spread, soup is probably the least used. That's one of the ways that I use it the most. But I think people buy it as a dip and then sort of start reaching for it in the fridge to use it for other things. It really is wonderful. We're kind of rethinking condiments in a way. It's to be able to use a product that's a condiment that is just completely good for you and with all ingredients that you know and kind of trust. is a great way to use it as sauce. You can warm it up. It's good on pasta. It's good, you know, chicken. It's really, I don't think there's one particular use case. A lot of other products now like hummuses are definitely venturing into kind of like versatile, but this isn't a product that was made for one thing and then is is trying to be useful in other areas. It really is just genuinely something that is multi-use. It's not, you know, as a chef, it's not a product that I invented. Vegetable purees have been used for years in professional kitchens. So we're just kind of, I just sort of brought that to market and took any butter and other unhealthy fats out and just made it super healthy.
[00:42:19] Ray Latif: No, I'm excited to try these products. I also want to spend like an hour with you talking about your experiences being a chef on private yachts. We don't have that kind of time right now. I want to get to rifle. As someone who has developed and created some of the most outstanding packaging that you'll see in CPG, I think you would appreciate what you see in OCO. But I also want to ask Rifle about the versatility of the product and whether you would recommend to Jane to be a bit more specific in the use case.
[00:42:54] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, you went right to where my head was going as I was digging into this before the show. So I get the, you know, I've done a lot of work with chefs and the multitaskers, you know, Alton Brown was certainly the, you know, a champion of tools like that. But when it comes to sauces and bases, you make it once and you can use it lots of different ways as the champion of back of house environment. The challenge to solve for is you continue to find ways for consumers to engage and use is it's a lot to digest. And so typically landing on the, you know, it's it's this is the thing that it's used for is where most products find traction. And then people then discover, oh, and I can also use it for this, this and this. So it's how do you how do you balance that communication challenge of You've got five seconds to make an impact. How do you, you know, bring it together and then and then allow them to discover? So that's part of it would be that you said most people are buying it for a dip. What would be your what's your one champion if you had to put all your weight behind one usage?
[00:44:05] Speaker 3: Oh, it's so difficult. I really have a hard time seeing it as one thing. And I know that that's not the greatest answer. But when I introduce it to people, probably the easiest way to sort of show it to them is as a dip. It's really delicious. It's really like big, vibrant flavors. So it is a wonderful dip. You can dip anything in it. But then that leads you to want to like spread it on things and everything else. So that kind of, it kind of leads.
[00:44:35] Ray Latif: Yeah, and I think the education piece is really important too. I'm on your Instagram page and I think teaching people how to use the product and the versatility is really important. I think also trying to figure out the right price points and the right place to merchandise the brand in store is really important. Again, I mean, if You know, if there are multiple places that this brand can be merchandised in-store, it seems like the most intuitive one would be with the hummus, and people would expect a certain price point then if you are, you know, selling it as a dip. So, I guess to make a long story short, where is the ideal place for this to be merchandised in-store, and what is the typical price point?
[00:45:14] Speaker 3: So you're right, it is the best place for it to be is around the dips and pestos and tzatzikis, that kind of area in the fridge. We retail at 8.95 for nine ounces. So we are a little bit more expensive than a straightforward hummus, anything like that. You know, we could have, We could have made the product for a lot less money but for me personally my real focus was on quality and integrity of the product and I think that there are enough people out there who will want that. Being fully organic, using HPP to maintain color and freshness and nutritional value and shelf life, like all of those things cost money. And I know that I am a consumer that reads every label. I'm so careful about what I put in my body. And I spent a huge amount of time in grocery stores. And I really, just because I'm still a chef, and you can see people trying to make the right decision. You can see people trying to, you know, like the part in the grocery store that's full of all of the vegetables that are kind of pre-prepared. so like spiral zucchini and chopped carrots and all that kind of stuff and people are buying that so they they want to eat well and they they like wanna but they still want to cook so I do think there's this like middle section of people that are willing to spend money on their health and to putting good things into their bodies, into their children's bodies. That's where we come in. We're not just like a snack food that you put on the table and people, whatever. We really want to become a part of people's everyday habits, everyday meal-making. So it is a premium product, but that's by choice. And there were definitely ways to cut corners and make it a lot less expensive, but yeah.
[00:47:25] Rifle Hughes: I'd say to jump in on that, I'd say that like, to hold ground on the pricing angle, because every product's sort of in the race to, as you scale, you're gonna get whittled down, right? And ultimately, it's almost impossible for any brand to take the care that you put into it, and then consider that it's distributed globally, and it's served to billions of people. By nature, it's gonna get dumbed down, it just has to. So I would look at lessons, You know, the two that come to mind is if you roll back the clock 15, 20 years, 15 years ago to like Blueprint and Suja when they originally came out. What were they? 9, 10 bucks for 16 ounces, right? And like your products, they were gorgeous, especially the beat when I'm a fan of beats like that intense red. And then over time they came back down. But as an entry point, yes, you're not competing with you know, the hummus that's on shelf today, you know, and even we now we have tomb and stuff that people are getting excited about and it's way cool. So like hold the high ground as long as you can, but I think you have to be open to finding ways to bring it down if it starts to make sense to do so.
[00:48:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point, Raifal. And it is true, because we make it ourselves. We have a facility in Brooklyn where we make it, package it, and then send it off to HPP. So our vegetable orders right now are really the most expensive that they could possibly be, hopefully. Hopefully, we'll only grow. But so, yeah, all of our minimum quantities are much more They're pretty expensive, but we are definitely, like we want to be, as you said earlier, we want to be adaptable and nimble and all of those things. So just kind of open to making sure that we're maintaining our quality, but that we're doing what works, what makes sense.
[00:49:22] Ray Latif: Yeah, and for viewers and listeners who are not familiar with HPP, it is a safety method similar to pasteurization, except they don't use heat to remove the bacteria or kill the bacteria in foods. It uses pressure to do so. And it's pretty common in cold-pressed juices and hummuses and other dips and salsas and things like that. And the benefit is that you're not cooking the food. It is maintaining the flavor, the color, the nutritional value of the food as well. So great to hear that you're using HPP. I know it's an expensive step, but it's definitely worth it. Jane, like I said, I feel like we could sit down for another hour. Maybe I will hit you up because I think there's a lot more to talk about.
[00:50:06] Speaker 3: I would love to send you both some samples as well. Please, I'll follow up and get your addresses, but would love to send you some.
[00:50:15] Ray Latif: Yeah, Rifle, he did the double thumbs up. I thought you were going to say no, Rifle. I thought you were going to be like, nah, no samples for me. I'm good. Thank you very much. But no worries. I know that would be fantastic. And this has been a fantastic conversation, Jane. Thank you so much for taking the time. And yeah, please stay in touch. If there's anything we can help with along your journey, just let us know.
[00:50:36] Speaker 3: That's so kind. Thank you very, very much. Thanks both.
[00:50:43] Ray Latif: All right, onto our final guest for this episode of Elevator Talk. That's Farnoosh Family, who is the founder of SunGhee. Farnoosh, great to see you again.
[00:50:51] Speaker 4: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:50:53] Ray Latif: Yes, you and I met at the Summer Fancy Food Show, and I really love what you're doing. I particularly love your last name. Raifal and I were marveling that your last name is actually Family. That's fantastic. Please tell us all about SunGhee.
[00:51:07] Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah. My last name causes lots of confusion everywhere I go. We are the family family, but yes, that's my name. Yeah, so I'm the founder of Sangee. A little background, I was a chemist and then I had kids and I got ill and needed to kind of revamp how I was eating and that was when I really turned to eating whole foods and good and better for you ingredients and leaned into more cultural foods and flavors, particularly into Ayurveda, which is an old traditional system of of medicine, really using spices and herbs and foods to feel better at a time when you are pregnant or when you have kids and you're nursing, you can't really do much with modern medicine in terms of being able to take other things. So I really needed to use good food to be able to feel better. And so that was when I started to do that, and G.E.A.T. was a part of that journey. Having a good, better-for-you fat that was really nourishing and really supportive. just became really integral to everything that I was doing. And so infusing it with herbs and spices was also a very natural kind of fit for me at that time. And in my household, you know, I'm Iranian and my husband is Mexican and we kind of blend our foods and our flavors and spices like all the time. And so that was just kind of like a natural fit for us. And At that time, I thought I would maybe sell some of these products to boutique shops or places where I thought postpartum moms would go. And I didn't realize that with food, you can't just do that. And so I had to learn about what it means to actually start a food business. Kind of the natural point of entry for us was farmers markets. So I started to make this as a cottage food in my home kitchen, just making jars and bringing it to markets on the weekends. And I got really great feedback and learned a ton about you know, the process of how to explain this product to consumers that maybe are not familiar with it, what kind of questions come up, what would we really need for our branding to make that work? And then from there, you know, moved into the commercial kitchen space and started selling in retail and food service.
[00:53:37] Ray Latif: You know, for people who are not familiar with ghee, what is it specifically?
[00:53:41] Speaker 4: It is essentially it's clarified butter. It's the concentrated form of butter. It has none of the milk solids, the lactose or the casein have all been filtered out. So it's just the oil of butter. And you would use it to cook with as your fat or your oil in your pan when you saute or roast or bake. Any way that you would use an oil, you could use ghee.
[00:54:07] Ray Latif: I tried your ghee at the fancy food show. I believe it was the Aleppo chili variety and I really loved what I tasted. I think that was just what sold me. I saw your brand. I thought your branding was great. I thought just the few seconds we chatted were great, but you really sold me on the flavor of these products. And it's interesting because I don't expect any flavor from ghee. I've had it before and you just like... It just tastes like kind of a bland, you know, oil or butter substitute. And what you make is really great. Why did you feel like, you know, the flavors were, I know you talked a bit about your background, but why did you choose the flavors that you did?
[00:54:45] Speaker 4: You know, when we came up with the flavors that we have, like, for example, we have a rosemary sage ghee, we have a chives, parsley, and tarragon ghee along with the Aleppo. We wanted these to be good entry points for people to bring more people to the table for ghee. Like you said, you might not expect much from ghee as just like in terms of the flavor and And maybe you have some preconceived notions of what ghee should be used for, but we're trying to show you that you could really use it for anything and everything. Like from cooking your eggs, from, you know, your orzo pasta dish with asparagus, all these other like applications for ghee, that's what we're trying to do. And so some of these like, you know, flavors that are from different parts of the world and infused into ghee, you can kind of explore a ton of different cuisine with that.
[00:55:35] Ray Latif: We let off this episode talking about differentiation, the importance of differentiation. There is a big-ish player in this space. Let's just call it what it is, it's Forth and Hart. Yeah, and I think that what I'm seeing with Sangi is really interesting in that I think flavor is the key differentiator for this brand and certainly more small batch and, you know, a bit more of a local brand, at least at this point. But do you see that as the key differentiator? Do you see another way that Farnoosh and her team can amplify what they're doing?
[00:56:07] Rifle Hughes: You know, I do, Ray, that the flavor feels like it's something that's unique and differentiated. I mean, let's be honest, ghee's still finding traction. I mean, people are figuring out what it is and how to use it. But we're in a season where, thank goodness, like healthy fats are sort of noted back as someone that the amount of grass-fed butter from Ireland and New Zealand that's consumed in this household could be criminal. The right place, right time. We are on a path of coming your way, Farnoosh. So I think it makes a ton of sense. And then the flavor, I do believe, will be one of the standouts. If you take analogous scenarios from, look at everything, could even consumers in America who could pronounce aioli five or 10 years ago. And then now you can get just all these variations of using it as a base to build flavor on. So, you know, like we talked about earlier, with the marinades of getting more flavor into food faster. And so if this is something I can cook with and bring flavor at the same time, like that's a win. And most oils or other fats aren't bringing a path to flavor. So long way of me just like saying, yes, flavor makes sense. Keep leaning into it. I think you're onto something here.
[00:57:32] Ray Latif: For a new show, where's the product sold? Where's the brand sold right now? What's the price point per jar?
[00:57:37] Speaker 4: Yeah, we have three different sizes of our jars. They're 5-ounce, 7-ounce, and 12-ounce. And so the price ranges from $11 up to $18, depending on which store it's in. But we sell through our website as well as independent shops around the country. Our biggest retail partner right now is Central Market in Texas. They've been a great, great place for people who want to try these types of products.
[00:58:06] Ray Latif: Outstanding. Central Market's a fantastic retailer, especially for up and coming and emerging brands. I think the question a lot of brand founders have is, well, where am I going to be in store? And for a brand like Sunghee, a buyer might be saying, hey, well, I want to put this in the ethnic food aisle, which used to be a bit more of a less traffic, dustier aisle. But I feel like there's a lot more people looking for innovative and unique products in that space. Where is the ideal place for Sangi to be sold in-store?
[00:58:38] Speaker 4: It's interesting because I think it really depends on where we're talking about. For example, in Central Market, it's actually sold in the butter section. So even though it's not a refrigerated product, it's a shelf-stable product, it's in the refrigerated section right next to other butter. I think just because people will associate it with butter and think about that there. However, in other stores, we're next to the olive oils and the pasta sauces.
[00:59:05] Ray Latif: Again, Central Market, brilliant on their part for putting it in the butter department or putting it next to butters, because I think this is primarily the way it's going to be used. But there's still another, I think, form of education that is required, because even if people see it, they might wonder about clarified butter. You know, Rifle, in your experience, How do you get to a consumer who is not familiar with a particular type of ingredient or product, get them to be as educated as quickly as possible? Is it a point of reference and you say, you can use it like butter, you can use it as an alternative to oil. Do you have to get into the history of the ingredient and the fact that it's better for you? I mean, how would you go about just trying to succinctly explain what ghee is and why Sun Ghee is a product that they should try?
[00:59:55] Rifle Hughes: There's some thinking that you can do on communicating more about the purpose and the reason to use it. It's similar, like what I was recommending with Statesman earlier, is this is a methodology to cook and bring a lot of flavor at the same time. And right now the brand is expressing it with its sort of cultural heritage, which I admire, you know, fourth and heart is the, you know, the Western expression of something, you know, trying to attack back in that, but then like even Vital Farms now sells their like squeezable ghee and some things like that. So I guess the question is, is how much of the heritage do you hang on to? Does ghee have its moment when it becomes more functional? So is there a path here where it's just like it's a flavorful cooking butter or does it need to Yes, there's a statement of identity issue, but is it more around communicating itself? Use this to get this result. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but that's those are the type of questions I'd be asking as we try to solve it.
[01:00:58] Speaker 4: That's like exactly what I think about for most of the time. Like in our, at least our social media marketing, I try to do a mix of both of here are ways that you can use it. You know, the Aleppo chili ghee we use to make flour tortillas and look at that, or, you know, but then also give you some of the education on why you would want to use that at all.
[01:01:18] Rifle Hughes: Flavored ghee on tortillas sounds like the perfect food, by the way.
[01:01:22] Ray Latif: In the mishmash of your family, I love it. I think based on all the different brands that we've heard from or seen today, we would have just a gourmet feast if we just had everything on the table right now and we could really go at it. My mouth is watering. Whenever that happens on the show, it's a good thing, I think. Farnoosh, we're out of time, but I can't thank you enough for being with us on Elevator Talk today. I love what you're doing. Again, I think your flavor is something that was unexpected and really showed a different side of ghee that I was happy to experience because I feel like now I have a better appreciation for what it is and what it could be. So thank you so much for creating a great brand and for being with us on the show today.
[01:02:09] Speaker 4: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the support and opportunity.
[01:02:12] Ray Latif: Yeah. Please stay in touch. Let us know if we can help in any way. Absolutely. Great to know you. Yeah. Rightful, as promised, five great brands, five amazing founders, and another example of how this industry is evolving and meeting consumers where they are and what they want to see out of modern food brands. And it's really exciting, isn't it?
[01:02:37] Rifle Hughes: It is, and I'm regretting my decision to have a little bit of a light lunch because like you, maybe we change it to elevator food coma or something. I want to just go eat all these things right now.
[01:02:49] Ray Latif: Yes, yes, indeed. And we want to taste even more and we want to talk to even more folks. So if you're interested in being in a future episode of Elevator Talk, just go to Taste Radio.com slash Elevator Talk to learn how to do so. Rifle, for folks who want to get in touch with you directly or anyone at Integral CPG, what's the best way to do so?
[01:03:10] Rifle Hughes: Yeah, you can email me at rifle at integral cpg.com or look me up on LinkedIn. Thank goodness. There's there's not a lot of people named rifle running around. So you should be able to find me and integral there as well.
[01:03:23] Ray Latif: Yeah, just type in rightful in the search bar. You're probably the first person that's going to come up. Might be. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Well, we got to have you back soon. Yes. I love it. Thanks for having me, Ray. I really appreciate it. Fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much to all of the entrepreneurs who joined us today. Thanks to everyone who's watching or listening to the show. And thanks to our amazing team at BevNET, Nosh, and Taste Radio, the best in the business. Signing off for everyone, I'm Ray Latif, and we'll talk to you next time.
