[00:00:03] Ray Latif: Well, it's September and the Red Sox are chasing the pennant in the AL East, which hasn't happened in a few years, which means that most people are in a good mood here in the office and in the city. So good for that. Hey, I'm Ray Latif. I'm here with John Craven, Jon Landis. This is the BevNET podcast. And today we're also joined by Jeffrey Klineman, BevNET's Editor-in-Chief Jeff you doing, Jeff? Just grand. Good to hear. Good to hear. John Craven, Jon Landis, how are you guys doing? Oh, well, AC's broken here. Is it? Is that why it's been like so musty? Musty.
[00:00:39] Jeffrey Klineman: No, it's actually musty because it's an old, sick building. And we've had creeping fungus all summer long. So if I don't make it to Expo West in March, it'll be because BevNET killed me. The particulate matter? Creeping fungus. I don't know anything about this. All right. Well, that's...
[00:01:02] John Craven: Didn't they used to make paper bags in this building or something?
[00:01:05] Jeffrey Klineman: Something like that. They left the paper bags to rot apparently. This seems like a great segue to our topic of the day though.
[00:01:11] Ray Latif: Well, I was going to say it feels sultry in here, but I'm going to leave that alone for now.
[00:01:14] Jeffrey Klineman: The night was sultry.
[00:01:16] Ray Latif: Yes. All right. So, you know, we asked Jeff to join us for this edition because he recently wrote a story about the probiotic beverage category or at least probiotics in beverages for the September issue of BevNET magazine. And we thought that would be a timely topic for the podcast, particularly where probiotics are in terms of ingredient use in beverages and, you know, how those beverages that are marketed as probiotic beverages are doing and, you know, what the runway for those are at this point. So, Jeff, can you give us a little sort of overview of where probiotics stand as an ingredient and, you know, how they're being marketed in beverages?
[00:02:00] Jeffrey Klineman: Yeah, so there's, I guess what I was writing about was this sort of rising debate over what constitutes probiotic. There's a sort of really natural thought that if I have a Kombucha, if I have a yogurt, if I have anything that's fermented, a kimchi, I'm ingesting a probiotic organism. Now, there's also some level of debate as to whether or not those organisms whether or not they survive transportation, remain probiotic, and then whether or not they're efficacious in my gut. would also determine whether or not they're actually probiotic. And so what you get is, because the regulation around this is really not definitive, and in fact, there just really isn't much regulation around this, what you get are sort of long-term ingredient companies, folks like Gnaden, any number of large ingredient companies who are basically coming up with their own supplemental probiotic lines for food and beverage manufacturers to push into their products. so that they can call them probiotic. And it's like they're researching a drug. They do a lot of scientific study to show that they survive both transportation and into the gut and have those effects that consumers believe that they get from probiotics. If they do that, they want to erect a higher wall around the definition of probiotic, because as the category grows, efficaciousness, they think, is one of those barriers that'll define it. And if they're able to say, well, we're probiotic, that other stuff isn't, they'll be able to really take advantage of the growth of the market. Well, but that still makes it seem like it's sort of a, I don't know, almost binary thing as opposed to something that is understandable, right? That's exactly right. And they are trying, this is how regulation works. You want to create a binary system. You're in or you're out. Sure. And these guys have a lot of money, and they're trying to do it in some ways the right way. They're forming an association. They're trying to set up standards. They've begun a lobbying practice. And again, they are doing a lot of the studies that entrepreneurs usually can't afford to do.
[00:05:08] Ray Latif: And by regulation, you don't mean government regulation. You mean sort of self-regulation of the category and of brands that are participating in the category.
[00:05:16] Jeffrey Klineman: Right. But what happens is government regulation tends to evolve out of accepted practice through non-government bodies a lot of the time. So if you look at something like grass standards, generally recognized as safe standards, It's sort of on the companies themselves to say this is safe. They submit the report to the government because the only people less well-funded than entrepreneurs would be government agencies. True enough.
[00:05:52] Ray Latif: Yeah, I mean it's interesting with probiotics because, you know, they've been a few years ago as sort of a bleeding-edge ingredient or added ingredient. Now it's really come to be one that is pretty widely incorporated into beverages and foods for that matter. I think the interesting thing from my perspective is whether or not it's just one of these buzzwords that means healthy and people don't really know what it does for you, or whether or not there is an actual efficacious demand for these probiotics.
[00:06:25] Jeffrey Klineman: I mean, it's sort of like antioxidants in that sense. And to that point of binary, it's either it has it or it doesn't. But I would imagine most consumers and probably even product marketers would be hard pressed to really explain the differences between the strains and the The volume of it, right? Except that probiotics offer this idea of a shorter lead functionality than antioxidants. They do, but again, I would say that it's pretty... And the studies that really have consumers hyped up, and they're not great studies. I just want to be clear on this. You open up the New York Times and read through the science section and you read this sort of consumer literature on probiotics, a lot of times they say, Eh, there's nothing conclusive that says this works. But there are studies that are pushing the category that are, you know, this is better for my gut, this is better for my mental well-being, this is better for immunity. I saw one study that pegs it to reducing the effects of autism in children. Strike that from the podcast. Sounds dangerous. You get this wide spectrum of things that people want to believe a product can do. And then you get what's provable. It's interesting because that's one side of the discussion. What can we prove that's efficacious because that's where this category can really take off. And then the other side of it is, hey man, let's drink kombucha. It's a natural drink. This is something people have been consuming for thousands of years. Isn't that good enough? And the answer is, yeah, it probably is from a company building perspective. But is it good enough to build out this massive category that people say could be $40 billion by 2020? Well, I think that's a great point. I mean, sure, there's part of, well, certainly for me, like I drink kombucha because I like the way that it tastes. If you eliminated any potential for health benefit, would I still drink it as much? I don't know. I mean, at this point, I'd probably just say, screw it. I like it. I'm going to keep drinking it. But I don't think I ever would have become the fan that I am without that functionality.
[00:08:49] Ray Latif: And I don't think it's going to become as big a category that people think it could be if people rely on kombucha as a function-first beverage.
[00:08:57] Jeffrey Klineman: But that's how it's largely marketed still. If nothing else, it's drink kombucha, it's good for you. Well, why is it good for you? It's got live probiotic cultures in it. Well, but they're not probiotic cultures if we're able to set up a definition that actually, and this is where I think it's really fun and sort of curves back in on itself, that the naturally produced live culture bacteria is what a certain part of the market would rather have you say isn't probiotic, but the stuff that you can shoot into a probiotic pizza or a probiotic chunk of cheese is probiotic because it's provable to be live and beneficial within your gut.
[00:09:47] John Craven: It's almost like it's going the exact counter to the organic and natural channel and the whole movement there.
[00:09:55] Jeffrey Klineman: And to be fair, these are natural organisms, but it's still sort of this, you have a lab grown version of what's natural or what we're trying to achieve functionally through a natural product. And that's why I thought it was just an interesting way to go after the story. And that's just about control more than anything else. One of the things that was sort of, I think, talked about in your article was that, again, the probiotics that come from things that are naturally fermented, even down to like the farmhouse culture guy at the end, you know, it's just a different thing. I mean, they're not building their product. And I thought it was, you know, neat, his sort of taste, his king line, but they're not building their product to achieve a certain level of probiotic output. They're just building their product for, you know, flavor, some health benefit, but it's not like the Ganogen product that is very much to deliver like X, you know, load of probiotics or whatever the right term is. But retailers are getting very choosy about this as well. And it's interesting because all the little, you know, the yogurt folks have their live and active seal. You know, I don't know that there's a kimchi seal But this guy is John from Farmhouse Culture is very interested in making sure he markets an efficacious product. The question is, will he be able to afford the science that proves he's marketing an efficacious product?
[00:11:24] Ray Latif: Yeah, but once again, I'm I get caught up on how big this category can be and how mainstream it could be. I mean, if you think about, and I could be wrong about this, but you know, in Greek yogurt and yogurt in general, as you touched upon, you know, started to really pick up consumption wise, it was their probiotics. It was people thought about gut health, as you know, Jamie Lee Curtis was on TV. Now that was a little bit more specific, the Activia stuff, but as Greek yogurt grew, it became less and less about, the health benefits, I think, and more and more about just they know or they think, consumers, that is, it's a healthy product for you to eat in different day part uses.
[00:12:01] Jeffrey Klineman: I think there's a line you've got to draw between Activia which is a probiotically enhanced yogurt, and Greek yogurt, which really caught on, I think, more because of the heavier protein and lower sugar content. And a loose sort of, you know, healthier choice kind of claim. And John Stamos. And maybe John Stamos, I don't know.
[00:12:25] Ray Latif: But wasn't, I mean, wasn't probiotics a big... No, more so than any other type of yogurt. Exactly.
[00:12:32] Jeffrey Klineman: I think that was all that it was, was just that loose, people knew that yogurt had probiotic content, at least, you know, the old school kind, right? Yeah. And that's, again, like where this sort of natural versus R&D focused, aspect of the industry gets interesting. How do you grow yogurt? Like it's, you know, you grow it through having bacteria create this sort of cheesy stuff. But at the same time, you know, some folks who are working in a lab to grow specific lines of bacteria are going to say, oh, well, that stuff's dead.
[00:13:10] John Craven: One thing that you said, though, stood out is that it's more about marketing the product towards retailers than consumers a little bit. I recall, I don't know, do you guys recall this during the New Beverage Showdown and the finals with the Vive organic shots, and it had 2 billion active Yes CF use and then and then Bill Weiland in his judging of the product says you got to have at least four So he was like really sold on like this threshold this number of how many billion CFU probiotics, you know you you need in a product to make it I don't know if it's to make it efficacious or to make it appeal to consumers and or what you said to make it even appeal to retailers who seem to pay more attention to specific thresholds like that or seal certifications. That was just something that I thought of.
[00:14:01] Jeffrey Klineman: I think what you're talking about, it's all going on, right?
[00:14:03] John Craven: Right.
[00:14:04] Jeffrey Klineman: So, John brought up antioxidants and we can remember back 10 years ago where it was an antioxidant arms race with regard to ORAC value. Whatever that meant. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What does CFU mean? Cultures per... Culture forming units.
[00:14:21] Ray Latif: Yeah. Culture forming units. Okay. There you go. The thing I keep coming back to is whether or not probiotics from a category standpoint can get past this sort of amorphous concept of billions of CFUs and whether or not it's something that- Something like that, there's no way to like quantify it, right?
[00:14:42] Jeffrey Klineman: I mean, it's just a big number and 4 billion is bigger than 2 billion. Like people understand simple stuff like that. People do understand- Yeah, except there's an efficaciousness level that is one of the few places where we've actually seen this run into government. And that has to do with Activia, several years ago, had to settle a lawsuit not over whether or not the probiotic content was efficacious, but whether or not it contained enough of that product to be efficacious in per dose. Isn't that the difference though, is that they were making a claim with it? I mean, a product that's just saying... They were making a claim that exceeded what the science said was efficacious. Right, but my point is that most of the beverages that we see don't make any claims around probiotics, right?
[00:15:35] Jon Landis: Not yet.
[00:15:36] Jeffrey Klineman: You know, you look at And I was thinking about this with the Suja product, the drinking vinegar. And there's a lot of stuff on there, but obviously they're pretty savvy in terms of how their labels read. And there's no claim on there about it. It just is sort of kind of banking on the fact that people at this point understand that probiotics are good for you. Yeah, and you know, what's interesting about that is the vinegars themselves aren't necessarily probiotic at all. They're not live things. And yeah, you know, so they're sort of sitting in the shadow of the exoticism of the kombucha, right? Like if it, you know, call them beverages that taste like salad dressing, all contain a health halo. Sure. You know, if it tastes like salad dressing, it's got to be good for you, right? To what Ray was saying, like, I mean, your question or point was just about how big these categories can really get, right?
[00:16:37] Ray Latif: How big they can get and how much the average consumer is going to understand what this ingredient does for you and why they should care. Now, gut health is, you know, a pretty catch-all or can be a catch-all term for a lot of different ingredients and for a lot of different beverages. The question I have is whether or not the scientific studies that some ingredient companies and some beverage companies are doing and the call-outs of 2 billion versus 4 billion CFUs is really going to move the needle for a large number of consumers or if it's just going to affect, you know, the current consumers of probiotic beverages.
[00:17:17] Jeffrey Klineman: Yeah, it's a good point because the one thing that a lot of the folks at the Probiotic Association hate is another competing standard. So they kind of look askance. at the yogurt association's live and active cultures, they're like, oh, that seal is meaningless. It is meaningless according to their definition of probiotic, but it's obviously pretty important to the consumer and to the yogurt producer to have some standard in there. Now, where the rubber meets the road on these things is often in the courtroom or with the FDA, where you have a standard that is widely publicly available. to the consumer so that they can understand, yeah, this works, or yeah, this doesn't. And look at what's happened to the claims around ORAC, or around vitamin water, or other products when they've come into contact with the FDA, or when they've come into contact with the courtroom. It really takes the wind out of their sails. It can really just if not kill the category, what it does is it sort of stops growth right then and there. So the less specific you are in a claim, that helps a long time. The ORAC thing certainly, you know, to your point of taking the wind out of the sails, I mean, you effectively had this sort of loose, I don't even know if you call it ingredient. Don't see a lot of blueberry juices out there right now. No, I mean, you don't. And I remember it was, you know, all those juices that were, I don't know, X times more antioxidants than blueberries or whatever it was.
[00:19:13] Ray Latif: That certainly helped. I got it started. I mean, like they started marking their coffee berry as having significantly more ORAC value than blueberries and things like that.
[00:19:21] Jeffrey Klineman: And then it just sort of evolves to the point where they've certainly shifted their, well, everything almost. And it kind of doesn't really matter anymore, right? I mean, at the end of the day, like products like that, and to some extent the probiotics are basically trying to say, hey, here's this drink, you know, hopefully you like how it tastes, and oh, by the way, there's this added health benefit, which might not really be something you can quantify, but it's more healthy than it not being there. Yeah, but I think that burden for the probiotic products is heavier than it is for something like bi or for vitamin water, because these products have a much higher taste barrier than a sweet vitamin water or a sweet buy that you can sort of chug down and get some caffeine in. Look, I don't know how many non sort of low-haas, non-Nosh friendly, natural, organic, sustainable, healthy, product-friendly consumers are sitting there thinking, well, I got to try kombucha because of the taste. No, they're not. But I think, you know, all I was going to say, and I totally agree with you about the comparison with antioxidants and in the sense that you actually expect some level of functionality that you can feel from probiotics, whereas with antioxidants, what expectation can you have that you feel healthier?
[00:20:49] John Craven: That's exactly what I was going to say. isn't there an advantage for probiotics because it's really objective, the functional benefits?
[00:20:56] Jeffrey Klineman: Like everyone- Yeah, if they were.
[00:20:58] John Craven: It's measurable and everyone can feel it. It's similar to energy, which is really one of the only functional categories that's really taken off purely because of its functional benefit and not because of its taste.
[00:21:09] Jeffrey Klineman: It's like a distant cousin of energy, I would say.
[00:21:13] Ray Latif: There might be some people that disagree with us. I mean, in terms of antioxidants as a function,
[00:21:19] John Craven: Yeah, but you can't actually say, like, I didn't get sick because I drank antioxidants or something. You can't necessarily say that about probiotics either. But you're not talking about getting sick, you're talking about the drug.
[00:21:28] Jeffrey Klineman: Well, no, you can't, but the common thinking right now is, I'm not going to get sick because I'm drinking kombucha. And there are a whole lot of claims around probiotics, again, that Look, some of them are more noticeable than others. For example, I know that if I consume certain kinds of products, I might not be in the room for a really long time. I might be in a different room.
[00:21:59] Ray Latif: Please tell us you're not drinking those products right now. No, he's drinking an Honest Tea.
[00:22:02] Jeffrey Klineman: We're all good. And some people might say I'm spewing those products right now. But what I'd say is that does line up much closer in terms of speed to effect, in terms of short lead functionality. They're much more lined up in that way. I drank my own kombucha for a week, and my skin cleared up, and I felt better than I'd felt before.
[00:22:29] Ray Latif: Now, I want to bring up another ingredient that people really point to and say similar things about, and that's matcha. And matcha has had some of the same issues that probiotics have in that there's a wide variety of preparation, there's a wide variety of ways to grow and cultivate this ingredient. And what's promoted about matcha is the antioxidants or are the antioxidants.
[00:22:56] John Craven: I don't necessarily agree with that, though. It's energy. Isn't that what's mostly promoted by matcha?
[00:23:01] Ray Latif: It's promoted for energy. It's promoted for relaxation in some ways because of the L-theanine, I believe. And it's also promoted for its antioxidant benefits. And there are producers out there who, similar to those from the probiotic category, want to create a standard. that says, okay, the way you grow and prepare matcha is a very specific way. And the way you get the antioxidants out of it is how it is grown and prepared.
[00:23:27] Jeffrey Klineman: Yeah, well, I think the difference with something like that, or I don't know, frankly, like you could probably list off, you know, a dozen different ingredients that are kind of up and coming and, you know, I'm trying to think of another one or maybe I shouldn't name names, but I mean, there are definitely ones where people are talking about standards and it's very premature. Now I would say with, you know, matcha, it's a little more well-known, but I think, you know, the big difference with the probiotics and pretty much anything is just that, you know, the amount of money that's been put behind it is so much greater and the big companies that you have behind it doing national advertising over long periods of time, they have done a great job of cementing it as something that is healthy. Again, I maybe say as far as antioxidants, probably pomegranates and POM Wonderful, in recent memory, did the best job of establishing that. But for anyone else who's going to try to get a piece of that, matcha being one potential for that, I just think it's such an uphill battle that the ability for someone to do that, it's going to have a really, really long runway to do that.
[00:24:32] Jon Landis: Yeah.
[00:24:32] Jeffrey Klineman: I would say matcha is dealing, you know, aside from the kind of caffeine energy that you're getting, like you're still talking about long lead functionalities. This makes me have a better life versus short lead functionalities and short lead effects that people ascribe. for the most part, to probiotics. My stomach feels better after a week on this stuff. And I will say that the marketing for companies, particularly for companies that are trying to say, well, I have the best strain, is really based on efficaciousness and tracking how I feel. You talk to someone like Alan Murray at GoodBelly, and their whole marketing is based on this 10-day challenge. And they will say, how do I feel at the end of these 10 days? And they'll offer you a refund if you don't like it. Because they want you to notice the change that these things create with your body. You're almost your own scientific test subject. Well, if you can feel it, that obviously helps a great deal for any of these companies.
[00:25:49] Jon Landis: Absolutely. Testimonials.
[00:25:51] Jeffrey Klineman: And I think we've talked about other functions on this podcast and BevNET Live, etc. And having some tangible benefit from it is always that challenge, right? And there aren't that many functions out there that really have that. I mean probiotics is one of the fortunate ones. Tom first always used to tell me that he believed in caffeine as a function. He believed in salt as a function of hydration. And I would tell him I believe in beer. Pretty functional stuff, for sure.
[00:26:25] Ray Latif: Hydration as a function has been pushed for a while now, and it's still strange to me. But I guess I do feel more sated now that I had a bottle of liquid. So I was hydrated, but this doesn't say hydrated anywhere on it. Anyway, all right, great conversation. Let's talk about what we're drinking right now and what some of our favorite drinks are for the week. Jeff, you're the guest star on this edition. What are you drinking?
[00:26:49] Jeffrey Klineman: I'm enjoying a cinnamon sunrise herbal tea from Honest Tea, mostly because I've been drinking coffee all day long and would like to sleep tonight.
[00:27:01] Ray Latif: Downers or something? A little bourbon? I'm also drinking something that's relatively relaxing. This is the Tease Tease Caffeine Free, of course it's caffeine free, herbal chamomile teas with peppermint and lemongrass. Tasty.
[00:27:14] Jeffrey Klineman: I actually just opened what I was, what I'm drinking now.
[00:27:17] Ray Latif: What is that?
[00:27:17] Jeffrey Klineman: Jeff started. This is called Freya. I believe it's, um, appears to be from Austria, Hungary. I don't know. Somewhere, somewhere. It's chia drink. It's a basil seed drink.
[00:27:29] John Craven: They're, they're aiming for the U S for 2017. Yeah.
[00:27:32] Jeffrey Klineman: It's pretty interesting. It basically is like the consistency of chia seeds, but it has basil seeds. Not really sure what the, uh,
[00:27:41] John Craven: Functionality of that is- It's a popular Asian beverage, isn't it? Basil seed? You got me, I'm not really sure.
[00:27:47] Jeffrey Klineman: It's a pesto drink. It just says it's a refreshment beverage with basil seeds. I wish it tasted like pesto, actually. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with rose cherry, but a little pesto right now might be- That seems like- Might be tasty.
[00:28:00] John Craven: Is it refreshing?
[00:28:01] Jeffrey Klineman: I don't know, let me get one more swig here. Superfood drink? I don't know, it's a little too sweet for my liking, and chewy.
[00:28:06] Ray Latif: Okay. Chewy and sweet. Chewy and sweet. Landis, you get the last word.
[00:28:11] John Craven: I got a couple bottles here. Well, I have a hydrogen rich water and an oxygenated water. And I was curious if I poured them in the same glass, if I'd get more water. Well, you need two of two bottles of the hydrogen water to one bottle of the oxygenated water. I actually have another one of these over my desk.
[00:28:31] Jeffrey Klineman: I'm going to go with that's not going to work, but it's not. I'm probably not.
[00:28:34] John Craven: But what's the benefit of, you know, I don't understand either of these products.
[00:28:39] Jeffrey Klineman: Those are examples of products that have some complicated education that's required. That's all I would say. Mad efficacious stuff.
[00:28:47] John Craven: This one, the hydrogen says it improves athletic performance and recovery, increased energy and circulation, and reduced fatigue and inflammation, which I'm assuming there's- That's a lot of stuff. Yeah, I'm guessing that, you know, they think that, I actually don't know. How does hydrogen do that? It doesn't make any sense. This one is even stranger, this oxygenated water. For best results, consume on an empty stomach 30 minutes before or one hour after eating. Very precise. But what are the results? It's water.
[00:29:20] Ray Latif: I couldn't tell you. You're going to have to find out on your own. You look rather angry.
[00:29:24] Jeffrey Klineman: If you drink the hydrogen water, John, you'll be able to say, I am hydrogenated. Hydrogenated.
[00:29:31] Ray Latif: There you go. It's interesting though. From a long time ago, I remember, what was that? It was that pouched water. It was eight to go. Was that correct? Oh, 8 to Go, yeah. 8 to Go, there was a lot of promise for that. I haven't seen that brand in a while.
[00:29:43] Jeffrey Klineman: That didn't have any oxygen in it. But an interesting little beverage fact, I think the first oxygen-enhanced bottled water was launched in, I want to say like 1997, pretty long time ago. And it's been one of those things that every once in a while pops up. Penta. Was Penta oxygenated? Yeah, yeah. I think it was. No, the first one that I remember was a brand called Life 2.0. I think that's the name of it. Yeah, it's just one of those concepts that companies keep trying to go with. Cool.
[00:30:16] Ray Latif: All right. Well, this is the end of this edition of the podcast. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time. So stay tuned and see you next time.
