[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello friends, I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with Elizabeth Stein, the founder and CEO of Better For You granola and breakfast brand, Purely Elizabeth. After 15 years at the helm of one of the most admired Better For You brands in the food industry, Elizabeth Stein is ready to share. The founder and CEO of Purely Elizabeth, which markets natural and organic granola, cereal, and oatmeal, Elizabeth Stein long been at the forefront of incorporating ancient grains such as chia seeds, quinoa, and amaranth into products that are designed for mainstream consumers. Since launching in 2009, Purely Elizabeth Stein gradually expanded beyond its roots in the natural channel and into conventional and mass retailers, including Publix, Target and Walmart. Consumer demand and consistent retail growth has expectedly attracted investors. In 2022, Purely Elizabeth announced the close of a $50 million Series B funding round, one that has fueled investment in marketing and product innovation. I sat down with Elizabeth Stein Expo West 2024 for an expansive conversation in which she shares lessons learned during her journey as a food entrepreneur, including how she positioned Purely Elizabeth Stein stand out in a crowded category, what it means to create something that retail buyers perceive as unique and incremental to a category, the two most important considerations when raising capital, and the impact of hiring the quote, right people. Hey, folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. I'm here at Natural Products Expo West 2024 at the Purely Elizabeth booth. And sitting with me right now is the founder and CEO of Purely Elizabeth, Elizabeth Stein. Great to see you.
[00:02:08] Elizabeth Stein: So good to see you.
[00:02:10] Ray Latif: It is fantastic. I feel like I haven't seen you in person in some time. I don't know why. And it's not because we haven't been at Expo the last few years. It's just because, I don't know, I'm a jerk and haven't been able to come to your booth.
[00:02:20] Elizabeth Stein: It's just been crazy. But here we are.
[00:02:23] Ray Latif: Here we are indeed. You have a beautiful booth, by the way. Is this your typical one or is this brand new?
[00:02:27] Elizabeth Stein: We've had this booth for about the last three years and it's a great reflection of the brand.
[00:02:33] Ray Latif: It makes a difference from the attendees' perspective when a booth looks good. You actually want to come. It's inviting. You actually have a little seating area here. It feels like, you know, it's not an intimidating kind of thing. It's just like, I want to learn more about this brand. It makes me feel comfortable. That's kind of how I feel. Good.
[00:02:50] Elizabeth Stein: Well, that's what we're trying to do. I sent a picture of the booth this morning to my dad to show him, and he was like, that booth just screams Purely Elizabeth Stein's so on brand.
[00:03:00] Ray Latif: It's you.
[00:03:00] Elizabeth Stein: It's me.
[00:03:01] Ray Latif: Yeah. And there's pillows too, which is nice. Screw pillows, that is. You've been doing this for some time. Before we hopped on the mics, I asked, how many years have you been doing this? And you said?
[00:03:09] Elizabeth Stein: It'll be 15 years in September.
[00:03:11] Ray Latif: Congratulations. That's so amazing. Thank you. Did you ever think you'd still be doing this 15 years later after you started?
[00:03:17] Elizabeth Stein: I didn't think I'd ever be doing this period.
[00:03:20] Ray Latif: Fair enough.
[00:03:20] Elizabeth Stein: When I started, it certainly became this is my passion and this is my path. So I did envision being here 15 years later.
[00:03:29] Ray Latif: I think it's good that you say that because some folks who enter the industry are like, oh yeah, I'll probably be doing this for three or four years and I'll sell my company and then I'll go do something else. It doesn't really work that way.
[00:03:41] Elizabeth Stein: No, it doesn't. And quite honestly, when I started, I never had a vision of building the brand to sell it. This felt like my calling. My background was I was a holistic nutrition counselor. I wanted to make better food, change people's lives, starting with food and creating this platform to do it. And so it was really a passion. It wasn't I'm creating a business to sell. So it was a definitely different time than it is today in the industry, I think.
[00:04:06] Ray Latif: Well, that's a good segue because the focus of our conversation today is very much about what you've learned as a leader, as an innovator, as a CEO, as a founder. And people here at Expo West, founders here at Expo West will say, I had this idea. It's a great idea. And I feel like there's opportunity to commercialize that idea and enter a particular category that they think is ripe for innovation, ripe for disruption. It's not easy, though. When you were starting out and as the brand has evolved, what have you learned about how to stand out in a crowded category? And I know you didn't start with granola, but as the brand has grown, how has your approach changed? How has your approach been sharpened as it relates to the categories that you're in now?
[00:04:50] Elizabeth Stein: Yeah, so I really think from the beginning, you know, we started with muffin mixes, and it was sort of a happy accident and how it started. But from the beginning, it was all about creating something that was truly unique. And I think that's certainly continued as we have innovated over the years, really always wanting to be incremental to the category. And I think back to you know, one of our brokers early on saying he would go into a meeting with Wegmans and the buyer would just sit there and be like, give me something that I actually care about. You know, I don't want to see another drink. I don't want to see another me too. And so that really resonated with me as we've continued to innovate is how can we actually be meaningful? Like we don't need excess products just to have products. And so as we look at that innovation process, It's what are those ingredients that are really standing out and what is something that's truly unique that the consumer is going to want and care about.
[00:05:47] Ray Latif: So it's the ingredients first and foremost that needs to be unique and different from anything else in the category?
[00:05:51] Elizabeth Stein: That's how we look at it. Yes.
[00:05:53] Ray Latif: So what was different? I mean, what did you see as being able to stand out from a formulation perspective, something that you could put on front of pack and it would be easy to communicate to the consumer?
[00:06:03] Elizabeth Stein: Well, certainly when we started, we were using chia seeds, coconut oil, coconut sugar, ancient grains. We were really one of the pioneers in this space. I remember going to Expo West for the first time in 2010, where we won Best New Product at the show and explaining to buyers what chia seeds were, which is like so, so wild to think about.
[00:06:26] Ray Latif: I think education in the natural industry peaked when it came to chia seeds, maybe around 2011, 2012. But in 2010, I would expect that some people would know what it was.
[00:06:36] Elizabeth Stein: Yeah, it was definitely, I was surprised by that. And so we've continued to utilize those ingredients, certainly as the base of our products, but bringing in other superfoods throughout the years, whether it was probiotics that we brought in 2014, prebiotics. There's other better for you ingredients and bringing that and marrying that with taste because ultimately you can bring all these great ingredients to a product. But to your earlier point, ingredients are important, but it's not just the ingredient that's going to set you apart and be on the shelf and make you successful. You've got to marry that with the taste, which is really number one for us.
[00:07:16] Ray Latif: Other ways to stand out are via the story, via the packaging, and I mean the brand story, the founder story. Today, when it comes to packaging, let's start there, everything is slick. Everything is beautiful. It seems like every new brand that is launched these days, especially ones that are launched by Gen Z founders in particular, are just so perfect and ready for market. But when you launched, I think there was still this acceptance of, oh, it can be crunchy granola and look like it's fine for Whole Foods, but nowhere else. How did you try to stand out in the categories that you were in from a visual perspective?
[00:07:52] Elizabeth Stein: I think that's such a great point. And I honestly think that was one of the biggest things that put us in the map in the beginning. So back to that first Expo West that I went to in 2010, I didn't even know what a broker was. I didn't know what a distributor was, but I went early on really wanting to get validation from the retail world. And for our packaging, from the beginning, it was very sleek and clean. And I knew that I wanted the packaging to remind me of a clean beauty product, really taking nods from that versus what was happening in other CPG products. So the design of it was so clean. It was white. It was not too far off from what our packaging looks like today, although it's certainly evolved. And that was one of the biggest things that really stood out at that show, that We had buyer after buyer come by complimenting the brand, the booth, because it really stood out. And so that's been something that's been super important from a brand perspective that has certainly evolved over the years, but it was very unique at the time.
[00:08:57] Ray Latif: Earlier you had said, your dad said, this booth is very much you. Or he said it's very much Purely Elizabeth. But Purely Elizabeth Stein you. I mean, the brand is named after you, or you named the brand after yourself, I guess. But how much of your founder story, how much of your being present at an Expo West and being, I guess, the face of the brand or the embodiment of the brand made a difference, again, in standing out amongst your competitors?
[00:09:24] Elizabeth Stein: I think it's made a huge difference. You can feel that passion from your team, but having the founder there makes a big difference. And that really has come across over the years with our retail community. I don't necessarily go to our tabletop UNFI shows anymore, but I did that for the first probably 11 years. And having that interaction with our partners is so crucial in building the brand and really setting it apart from some of the bigger players. And, you know, the buyers really appreciate that this is important for so important for me and they see how important that is and respect that as well.
[00:10:07] Purely Elizabeth: Vibrant Ingredients is the natural ingredient partner powering food and beverage innovation, delivering flavor, function, and protection through a science-backed portfolio. Vibrant delivers purpose-driven solutions that help brands create extraordinary experiences. Discover what's possible with Vibrant today. Visit VibrantIngredients.com.
[00:10:35] Ray Latif: You are showcasing your cookie granola here at Expo West. Anyone who's ever paid any attention to Taste Radio knows that we are fiends. And maybe I wouldn't call myself a fiend. I'm a fan. My colleagues, my co-hosts, are fiends for your cookie granola. And it's fantastic. It really is a fantastic product, all kidding aside. But when you're thinking about launching a brand extension, a line extension, what have you learned about that process? How long it should take, the timing, how do you incorporate research and data, and when to trust your intuition?
[00:11:12] Elizabeth Stein: Well, first of all, thank you for loving the cookie granola.
[00:11:15] Ray Latif: It's not hard. It's a really great product.
[00:11:18] Elizabeth Stein: It's interesting. So Cookie Granola was actually our first product line in the last 15 years that we've done a proper innovation process, stage gate, the whole nine yards, historically up until now. I mean, it was, I came up with an idea and I, everyone was like, this is great. And we would put it in a Ziploc baggie and send it off to Whole Foods. And the review was like two weeks later and they loved it. took it in and then we rolled with it. I mean, it was really not much of a process.
[00:11:53] Ray Latif: Can I pause for right there? Hearing feedback and hearing feedback that you might not like or that someone might think would rub the wrong way is sometimes the most helpful feedback, right? Like if someone says, you know, Elizabeth Stein don't like this idea. I think this is a bad idea for the brand, for the company. How do you take that? I mean, I'm not the best at taking advice like that. And I'd be like, hey, what the hell do you know? This is my brand. I wouldn't say that, but I mean, I would think in the back of your head. So, but how do you, how have you learned to take feedback, not personally, but constructively?
[00:12:24] Elizabeth Stein: I actually like really welcome it because I do think people are definitely probably a little nervous to give feedback sometimes. And so when someone does give me feedback, I find that like, I really encourage people to do it because to me then it's something that they feel passionate about and they're seeing it in a different perspective that I'm not seeing it. And I'm certainly not the expert by any means. And now certainly we've got a team that knows a lot more about things than I do. So I think I've gotten pretty good at taking the feedback and respecting it.
[00:12:58] Ray Latif: But when do you know when to push back and say, I appreciate the feedback, but I'm going to trust my gut on this one.
[00:13:03] Elizabeth Stein: I think when I feel it in my gut, you know, a lot of times, for example, cookie granola launch, we are actually going to launch a fourth cookie granola flavor.
[00:13:13] Ray Latif: Oh, can you reveal what it is?
[00:13:15] Elizabeth Stein: Don't tell our head of marketing I just said this.
[00:13:16] Ray Latif: No, it's good. You didn't tell me the flavor yet.
[00:13:19] Elizabeth Stein: We don't have the flavor yet. But we weren't planning to do that for another two years. And after month one of seeing the product on the market, I was like, we have to pivot from the other direction. We were going to go on granola, line extension, and we need a fourth flavor because this is already resonating. I was like, I know my gut. We don't need to see the data. Let's just go.
[00:13:39] Ray Latif: So you said you did a really proper analysis before launching this cookie granola line. What went into that? And again, there's a lot of brands out there that don't have the resources, don't have the funds for data, can't do a focus group, can't do surveys, things like that. But what did you do that you felt could be cost effective, perhaps, for a smaller brand?
[00:14:04] Elizabeth Stein: Totally. And I will say some of my learnings from my, hey, I have this great idea that's not going to put it in a Ziploc bag and send it to Whole Foods. Well, that was at times wonderful and great and fast. And we could bring something to market that was ahead of the curve. What we did learn is that oftentimes it didn't work. And had we had a little bit of rigor behind it, you know, most of the times it didn't work because we were ahead of the time. So, for example, we'd come out with mushroom granola bars probably six years ago. And now here we are at the show and mushrooms are
[00:14:40] Ray Latif: the perfect fit for Expo West 2024.
[00:14:42] Elizabeth Stein: Perfect today. So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of ways looking back that when we didn't have the resources, whether from a people perspective or financially, that we could have done a couple of things to learn. And so as you talk about surveys, you know, you can do a survey monkey. Those are free. whether it's polling your online community, whether that's via a newsletter or just even social. Like we just asked, hey, what would you rather like this flavor or that flavor? There's also a platform called Suzy that is not very expensive and you can ask a lot of great survey questions and it'll onboard. You can get a thousand respondents within 24 hours to answer questions. So that's actually something we've used quite a lot.
[00:15:25] Ray Latif: Is it S-U-Z-I-E?
[00:15:26] Elizabeth Stein: S-U-Z-Y. OK. And so we have now in the process done that, whether it's through a concept, asking questions, asking questions on packaging, like what's more important to have this call out or that call out? And they can answer those sorts of questions. And then from an actual food product perspective, you don't have to have a focus group, but you could, you know, have your own focus group, whether that means friends of friends of the brand, or, you know, you don't want to necessarily do it internally, because there's certainly bias, but building a little community that you could build your own focus group around different tastes in trying your products.
[00:16:02] Ray Latif: How much are your retail buyers involved in that planning process?
[00:16:07] Elizabeth Stein: they're not too much. There's a little bit in the sense of we give them a sneak peek, but I do think it becomes a little bit complicated in that you get everybody, then they want an exclusivity and they want to be the one to bring it to market. And then another retailer gets upset because you have an exclusivity. So it can be tricky. And we definitely have gone that route and there's benefits and disadvantages as well.
[00:16:34] Ray Latif: Yeah, and I think the review cycles are different for every retailer. At this show in particular, I've been hearing about a lot of brands that are getting into Sprouts in June in particular. I used to hear that about Whole Foods, which is interesting, but not so much anymore. And I don't know, I haven't asked them, OK, well, when did you present this to Sprouts? But just in your experience, when do you start to make that reveal to retailers?
[00:16:58] Elizabeth Stein: Well, for example, I was just chatting with our Whole Foods buyer here at the show. So we have our review will be in May and that'll go into stores in January. So that'll be our first time that we we reveal this new cookie granola flavor.
[00:17:15] Ray Latif: Gotcha. Right now, the cookie granola is available.
[00:17:18] Elizabeth Stein: It is. It's available in Whole Foods.
[00:17:20] Ray Latif: Yeah.
[00:17:21] Elizabeth Stein: Publix and Walmart as an exclusive.
[00:17:24] Ray Latif: There you go. For all that. After all that.
[00:17:28] Elizabeth Stein: And it's still hard because, you know, every retailer wants it right now.
[00:17:33] Ray Latif: So, you know, it's really helpful. It's really tough to be in business for 15 years bootstrapping. You got to raise capital at some point, at least, you know, historically, it seems like that's the way to do it. How do you go about or what's been your process for raising capital? What have you learned about the ways that it's been successful, the ways that it's been pretty smooth and streamlined versus chaotic and a lot of sleepless nights?
[00:17:59] Elizabeth Stein: Well, certainly the first time that we raised capital, was very different than the world is today. So it was certainly very different. I definitely waited as long as I could to get outside funding.
[00:18:13] Ray Latif: Why?
[00:18:15] Elizabeth Stein: I wanted to stay in control as long as I could and really control my destiny. And like I said at the beginning, I think I wasn't building this at the beginning to say, I'm going to build this $100 million brand and sell it. And it was, I'm going to be thoughtful and take my time. And I didn't feel, I guess, this rush, this need to have to like race to the top from day one.
[00:18:38] Ray Latif: You didn't want the headlines that said, Purely Elizabeth raises $2 million in a Series A round?
[00:18:41] Elizabeth Stein: Right. I didn't care about that.
[00:18:44] Ray Latif: No, I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's like it's funny how that headline is meaningful, but not really meaningful, right? I mean, it's great that you raise money, but that shouldn't be the reason that people are talking about your brand.
[00:18:58] Elizabeth Stein: Completely, completely. So that was not an attractive thing to me. I mean, certainly if I could have never raised money, that would have been even better. but really wanting to stay in control. And certainly you hear all the horror stories at the beginning that people are warning you about. So the idea of bringing in a partner certainly sounded not like the best thing. And so when the time came to raise money, I really started to talk people before I needed money. And so I think that's a really great lesson because you don't want to be in a place where You're needing that and rather a place of strength. And you're just being able to talk to people and make those relationships without feeling so insecure that you're like on a month by month, hey, can we make payroll perspective? So I was very lucky in the beginning in our first series A raise. It was with 301, the General Mills. group. And they were great partner. And we did our Series B in 2021. And with that really did a full process for the first time. To your point, how do you not make that chaotic? I mean, we did use bankers for that. It was, you know, at that point, the business was bigger. I certainly couldn't be running a process myself, as well as running the business. at the same time. And so that was certainly very helpful to have that help and ultimately ended up with the same guys from 301 and having great partners. I think the most important thing for me was it's all about the relationship and the people. And so I just wanted to make sure that I had partners who had the same values, who believed in the business, who would really continue to help strengthen where the brand was going, but not have different agendas. Because it's, you know, as they say, it's like getting married and you're with these people and partners. And so to me, the partnership was more important than a multiple that I was going to be given on the deal.
[00:21:03] Ray Latif: Partnerships are based in trust and Unfortunately, when it comes to outside investors or outside investor groups, we've seen a consistent stream of investors who just don't think that the founder should be running their company anymore for one reason or another. Either there's some sort of disagreement about strategy or they just want to bring in something a bit more experienced or whatnot. And the founder who trusted the investor not to try to replace them feels jilted, feels unhappy, feels like there was a breach of trust. How do you enter into a relationship with an investor such that there is trust that you will continue to run the company as long as you want to?
[00:21:52] Elizabeth Stein: God, I think that's such a great question because certainly, like, those are the horror stories that you hear. And I have friends who've been through that and are no longer running their brands. And it's like, I can't even imagine that feeling. So tough. And so, you know, part of that is Perhaps coming back to my beginning point of not looking for money when you need it so that you can really take the time to build relationships before doing a deal. Because you really need to get to know people. And even, you know, when we did our process back in 21, There's only, I mean, so you have a Zoom call, you might have a dinner with someone. It's maybe like five hours that you spend. And that was part of it to me that I was like, how could I possibly really get to know someone in this amount of time? So I do think as slow that you can take it so that you're able to really get to know the investors and Again, it's like dating to be able to tell how can you trust them and build that rapport together.
[00:23:02] Ray Latif: I have also heard a couple of horror stories, not a lot, but enough that it's concerning where a founder will present to a group of men, a female founder will present to a group of men and be treated differently than male founders or be asked, you know, who's the CEO here? Or, you know, who's running your business? That kind of stuff. That's pretty condescending kind of stuff. How have you learned to, I guess, push back against that undercurrent of sexism that seems to be not as prevalent as it had in the past, but it's still out there?
[00:23:42] Elizabeth Stein: Yeah, I would say I didn't experience that in the fundraising process. I will say I've certainly been to one or two Expo West and West where people will come up to the booth and granted, again, the name of the brand is Purely Elizabeth. Here I am standing there as a woman and they'll say to like our head of sales, Oh, so are you the owner of the company? It's like,
[00:24:05] Ray Latif: Yeah. It's the person with the badge that says Elizabeth.
[00:24:08] Elizabeth Stein: Right. And I have a badge that says Elizabeth Stein that's really been probably the biggest example that I've had. And, you know, as I'm thinking about that, that hasn't happened in years. So that is a memory that is probably just sitting here in the back of my mind. That's probably at this point, like five years ago that that happened. But I've been fortunate to not experience that on the fundraising side, because that would be, I think, quite difficult to be dealing with.
[00:24:33] Ray Latif: Has it been an issue on the retail and distribution side of things?
[00:24:36] Elizabeth Stein: No, I haven't seen that from that perspective.
[00:24:38] Ray Latif: That's really good to hear. And maybe there is change that has finally come to, you know, the industry and beverage in particular, actually. I mean, I started out in this industry on the beverage side of things. It's still very much a problem. The number of female led beverage brands is minuscule in comparison to the food side of things.
[00:24:58] Elizabeth Stein: Yeah, that is true.
[00:24:59] Ray Latif: Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth Stein is such a great brand that you created. It's a successful brand. It's a brand that is doing good by feeding people better food. I assume all those things make you happy, but what have you learned about what makes you happy and how to incorporate that into your life on a regular basis?
[00:25:17] Elizabeth Stein: I have a list of things that make me happy. Literally a list of my iPhone notes. This is like things that make me happy.
[00:25:24] Ray Latif: That's great. Do you reference that? I do.
[00:25:26] Elizabeth Stein: And so it's actually a list of things that make me feel good is what I call it because You know, you in this world, this business, we are in a constant roller coaster. You can have one day that's amazing. And in the same day, it's also horrible. And so having a list of things, whether they're big or small, so it could be something as simple as like, go for a five minute walk to go on a vacation. But this list that I use that if I'm having a day that I'm not feeling so great, it's like, what can I do to make myself feel good and happy. And I think that that's a really simple tip that's really worked for me. Those things that I know that will truly make me feel relaxed, get my parasympathetic system in play. And ultimately, you know, I know that I can be the most effective leader when I am feeling the best. And to your earlier question of like, when can you feel it in your gut? I can also feel my gut instincts best when I am the most relaxed and balanced.
[00:26:31] Ray Latif: It always helps when you have a good group of people around you, a great team. I've been working with one person on your team for some time. That's Brooke, who is your director of PR. She's amazing. She's fantastic. She's someone it seems like you can rely upon, and it feels like she can rely upon you as well. What have you learned about hiring the right people, the quote-unquote right people?
[00:26:49] Elizabeth Stein: I mean, team is everything. Definitely, we would not be 15 years into the business without our incredible team. And my first two employees are still here today. Our head of sales has been here for... Wow. Yeah.
[00:27:02] Ray Latif: They've been with you the entire time?
[00:27:03] Elizabeth Stein: For 14 out of 15. They were my first hires. They moved from New York to Boulder. Our head of sales has been here for 11 years. You know, we've got a lot of people who've been here for many, many years. And I certainly had no background in hiring people and people management. And so it's been really a journey for me personally, which has been a challenge and one that I've really enjoyed. And as I think about hiring people, certainly, yes, they need to have skills and in some roles, more skills than others, but ultimately it's the values and having that passion. And so I feel so fortunate to really have our entire team have that like inner passion that yes, it'll never be their business like it's my baby, but I can see for them that they treat this brand with so much like care and respect. And it's that kind of that trust that we talked about earlier and having just so much trust in them that I think they reciprocate that in how they treat the brand.
[00:28:06] Ray Latif: Elizabeth, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sitting down with me. I know you have a lot of experience in this business and you have a lot of wisdom from that experience. So I really appreciate you sharing that with our audience. I know they do, too. I'm sure there's going to be some people being like, oh, listen to that. And I want to go get in touch with Elizabeth Stein mean, do you do mentor? Do you do advising with other brands?
[00:28:27] Elizabeth Stein: Yeah, I'm always happy to help.
[00:28:29] Ray Latif: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again. Congrats on everything. And thank you so much for creating the cookie granola that has made our office so elated these days.
[00:28:39] Elizabeth Stein: Amazing. Thanks so much for chatting.
[00:28:40] Ray Latif: Appreciate it. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. you
