[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello dear friends, I'm Ray Latif and you're tuned in to Taste Radio, the leading podcast for entrepreneurs, makers, and innovators in the food and beverage industry. What separates beverage brands that break out from those that burn out? In this episode, industry veteran Ken Sadowsky, often known by his sobriquet, The Beverage Whisperer, offers a behind-the-scenes look at what's working and what's not in the fiercely competitive drinks industry. Ken, who is the Executive Director of the Northeastern Independent Distributors Association and a senior advisor with Belgium-based investment firm Verlinvest, draws from decades of experience and shares practical, battle-tested insights from store checks in New York City bodegas to the growing influence of non-alcoholic spirits. He dives into a range of hot-button topics, including the ROI of trade shows like Expo West crucial role of effective packaging, and the delicate balance between innovation and consumer confusion. Along the way, he shares candid opinions on up-and-coming brands, expressing optimism for some while voicing skepticism toward others. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. I am once again joined by the man known as the Beverage Whisperer. That is Ken Sadowsky. Kenny, it's so great to see you. It is always an honor to be here and to see you as well. Indeed it is. This is the first time I've seen you at BevNET HQ in a while. I don't think it's been a year. We talked one year ago in this very studio, but we've seen each other multiple times since, but just not in the office. Right, but I've been in the office and you haven't been here.
[00:02:02] Ken Sadowsky: I apologize. No, no worries. I popped in unannounced to pick up some random beverages and then to drop off some, uh, sneakers for Mike Schneider.
[00:02:12] Ray Latif: Well, that was very kind of you. Sneakers for beverages. I think that's a good trade. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, you came to the office just to rate our cooler in a good way. And we encourage people to do that, by the way.
[00:02:24] Ken Sadowsky: I wouldn't say that I came just to do that, but while I was in the neighborhood, I figured I would see what I was missing. It was early, like from, you know, when I moved back from Miami seasonally. So it was like June, but it was just after your New York BevNET. So I just wanted to see what y'all had, as they say.
[00:02:44] Ray Latif: It was akin to a store check. coming into BevNET headquarters to see our coolers and what's in there. Absolutely. Yeah. You love store checks. Ever since I've known you, you talk about this a lot. Store checks are a primary way for you to know what's going on in the industry.
[00:03:00] Ken Sadowsky: Yes, I have been called by some publications the king of store checks. Was that us? It was not. If it had been you, I would have given you credit. It is a BevNET adjacent beverage publication, and it was someone that I might have been out having beers with after like a Tottenham Hotspur game. or match. And even after having consumed a few beers, just did store checks on the way back to my hotel in the bodegas of Manhattan, which are also really fascinating.
[00:03:33] Ray Latif: Yeah, I love, love going to those bodegas because the variety of what they have, you would think it's pretty cookie cutter from one bodega to another, but there is a pretty wide variety, I guess, for lack of a better word, in what you might see from one to another.
[00:03:50] Ken Sadowsky: Absolutely. It can have to do with the ethnicity of the store owner and who they're willing to or want to do business with. And then it can also just be the geographic attention to the neighborhood and they know who their customers are.
[00:04:05] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's one of the coolest things because what you see in New York City isn't necessarily what you would see anywhere else in the country. There's a lot of independent brands, a lot of just emerging brands that you'll see one month and they'll be gone the next. It's a little Erewhon-ish in that way. But when you go into those stores, what really piques your interest? What really gets you? moving your hands out of your pockets and reaching for something on the shelf.
[00:04:31] Ken Sadowsky: Well, I am a sucker for trying something I've never had before, so I'm always buying new things. And the other thing that I love about Manhattan is if you have to ask how much it is, you probably can't afford it, and nothing has a price on it in that city other than Arizona, which is pre-priced and the retailers hate it. And sometimes they even sticker over it saying, yeah, we know it's supposed to be 99 cents, but they don't know what we pay for rent. So it's $2.99 or whatever. But definitely things that I've never seen before, never tried before. And, uh, you know, not sort of the, a line extension from a Coke or a Pepsi or a KDP, no offense to those guys. I know I'm going to be able to find that somewhere else. It's really just what is new and exciting and somebody's trying to make their way in. As Frank Sinatra said, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. So that is the rough and tumble streets of Manhattan.
[00:05:28] Ray Latif: Is your interest just general enthusiasm for the industry? Is it investor driven? Is it trend driven? I mean, why are you looking, why do you, why do you spend so much time in stores?
[00:05:38] Ken Sadowsky: I think those are all key points, you know, and having been a distributor, that's also a factor, right? I mean, I know how a lot of those products are getting to the shelves. I know, you know, not down to the gnats behind, but I know, you know, what Big Geyser has, I know what Dora's has, I know what Rainforest has. So I can tell by a lot of the independent distributors who's dealing with whom, and then how it's getting here and just, you know, a lot of key metrics. It's it is a bit of inside baseball for me. But it's also just, you know, okay, what's new and exciting. You can't develop, I can't, give any sort of insight about a trend by seeing one or two or three stores. But after I've done 20 store checks in different neighborhoods, you know, you start to develop pictures of things. And I also mean, some things haven't changed in Manhattan from when I was, you know, first doing store checks, which was like, Frequent trips to New York started happening like 25 years ago when I was first on the board of energy brands that turned into glasso and vitamin water. But it was always sort of like the Upper West Side where Columbia University was in that area. And then down by St. Mark's Place where NYU was. Those are just target rich environments and they remain that way to this day. The most expensive rent, you know, like the core Upper East Side and Upper West Side and then, you know, moving into the village and some of those places, it can be really difficult for stores to carry varieties they've got to just stick with. what's sort of right down the middle, as they say, but they always take chances. You know, those retailers take chances. But if there's a product that's in distribution in those disparate parts of the city, that starts to paint a picture of this is either a good product or a good distributor or both.
[00:07:35] Ray Latif: Well, a lot of people want to break into the New York market because it's a great market for hype, for building awareness, for marketing purposes, just promotion of your brand right out of the gate. I think about a brand like Recess, right? And when they came out, it was for a lot of different reasons. I mean, they were big into the CBD at that time was a key ingredient. A lot of people were talking about Recess as being the CBD adjacent brand to a Red Bull. I think they called it Red Bull CBD, something to that effect. But does hype really matter? And I mean, how much does it matter versus the velocity you need to stay on shelf in New York City?
[00:08:12] Ken Sadowsky: Well, New York City is the fastest paced city in America, so you've got to prove it every day. But, you know, there are certainly brands that have just continuously paid to remain on store shelves. I call it sort of the fake it till you make it strategy of buying yourself time until you succeed. And some things are just sort of slow, steady builds. And I mean, I think about how Vitacoco really started on store shelves in 2005, 2006 in Manhattan and still there, still commanding a presence. certainly doesn't look like Coke or Pepsi, like we're not the biggest brand out there. And I say we, because I'm a director of the company. I want to be full disclosure and not just talking about brands that, you know, like, oh, that's really hyperbolic. And then, you know, well, he had a hidden agenda. So if you didn't mention it, I was going to mention it. But yes, I mean, it's been interesting to watch the growth of certain brands. And as far as just staying on shelves in Manhattan, You either have to have the velocity or you've got to be getting something back to the retailer to stay on the store shelves. Is that a good strategy though? The latter? Yeah. No, definitely not. I mean, that's the fake it till you make it strategy. And, you know, the only thing I would say is if you really believe in your product and you just don't have the formula down, then you can continue to try to get the retailer to back your product, even when they shouldn't. But if I were advising that brand, I would say, take the product off the shelf until it's ready. You know, one of the axioms that I tell entrepreneurs when they're starting is, make your mistakes in your hometown. Unless you are from Manhattan, Try to get your formula down, not literally the product formula, but the formula of here's the product, here's the price, here's the positioning, all the things that it takes to be replicatable at the next level. And don't do those in the toughest city in the world. to do that, or at least in the United States.
[00:10:15] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's very expensive to be able to scale an emerging brand, a brand, an early stage brand in New York City. But I mean, some have done it. I think about a Ginger Labs, which is a brand I love. They're a maker of ginger and turmeric shots. I believe they're aligned with Dora's. I sat down with the founder, Namek Sultan, at BevNET Live and You know, he's the kind of guy who's just a workaholic. So, I mean, you know, especially to make it there, he's just always on the go, always busy, but did everything with an eye on frugality, spending wisely, and making sure product moves off shelf. And, you know, he's in every bodega. You don't see a lot of shot brands in New York City, but you always see Ginger Labs, which is awesome. You know, the last time we sat down, you brought a ton of beverages for us to sample, and this is no different today. And we've been talking for 10 minutes and haven't cracked anything open yet. Some of these products are from across the pond, as we like to say. Some of them are from here. I am such a sucker for canned cocktails. I'm going to hold off on this one. This is a Negroni from a brand called Moth, M-O-T-H. It's got Moth colon Negroni. It describes the ingredients as gin, removes the tomorrow. Those are the ingredients of a Negroni. Let's hold off on this one. This is, this is talk about, you know, marketing and talk about branding. Beautiful, beautiful can.
[00:11:33] Ken Sadowsky: Yes. And I am a small investor in that one, but I just, I really do like the product, but I also feel like if I walk into BevNET without a Negroni, I might get kicked out.
[00:11:44] Ray Latif: Yes. I probably, this would be a shorter conversation than otherwise. MOTH stands for mix of total happiness. Let's put that one aside, even though I hate to do it. Here's one that's a non-alcoholic cocktail. Similar looking can. It's a little bit larger. This is 6.7. The moth is a... It's going to be like a 250 ml, right? Or 200 ml? It says 125 ml. It's a pretty short can. This one is 6.7. It's from a brand called Pentair, if I'm pronouncing it correctly. This is a non-alcoholic margarita. It's in a silver can with a pressure seal label. a.k.a. a sticker, and the label has a texture to it that's rough, if you can hear it, on the microphone there, but it feels good in your hand. Let's crack this open.
[00:12:26] Ken Sadowsky: And interestingly enough, and unaided, you did that, but I met that founder at the Moth investor meeting. He's a British guy that's living in Los Angeles, and his name is escaping me right now, but I have not tried this product yet.
[00:12:39] Ray Latif: So Moth has a similar pressure label. But this is a margarita, non-ALK. Thanks. It's got distilled coastal botanicals, lime, agave, chili, and sea salt. It's very good. Yeah. Very, very good. Well done. This tastes like a margarita, which is step number one. Correct. Yep. I think if you're going to call yourself a cocktail, you got to taste like a cocktail. I think we're at the point right now where compromise is a four letter word for ALK analogs. Would you agree? Yes. And I, and I think that the other part of this that's really great is that the calorie count is appropriate. The sugar count is appropriate. You're not drinking a sugar bomb. You're not, you know, killing yourself with 200, 250 calories. This is a 6.7 ounce can with 48 calories and 10 grams of sugar. We've talked about this in the past. You are an investor in a non-alcoholic cocktail brand. The one that's called Parch. Former winner of our New Beverage Showdown. You didn't judge the showdown. Everyone knows you're a regular judge for the showdown in Los Angeles, but Parch won our New Beverage Showdown in New York. I would say it was four years ago, about four years ago. Incredible brand. Incredible brand. Nice founders. What's the trajectory? Is the trajectory for non-alcoholic cocktails where you thought they might be at this point?
[00:14:01] Ken Sadowsky: No, what I would say is, you know, I like the way the category has developed a new moniker or abbreviation, ANA, Adult Non-Alcs. Right, yeah. I do also like the fact that the Parch co-founders came from the beverage alcohol space. You can reuse that if you want.
[00:14:17] Ray Latif: Sure, okay. We're going to pour some more here.
[00:14:19] Ken Sadowsky: The liquid is just really good, so sorry for digressing so quickly.
[00:14:23] Ray Latif: No, I think that's what we let off with, which is that you've got to have great taste, first and foremost. The branding can be outstanding, the story, the backstory can be great, but if the liquid isn't what it's supposed to be, forget about it. I got to stand on my soapbox as I often do on this podcast. Founders, please just ask as many people as you can about taste. I know it's a subjective thing, but if enough people say they don't like it, you probably need to change something. If enough people say they really like it, ask them why and try to get as much information about why they enjoy the flavor, why they might actually buy this product, what is motivating them to take a second sip.
[00:15:03] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, it's a good point. You know, there's a point that I would dovetail along with that, which is don't ask, yes, men or women. Really ask as many people as you can, which is why I tell young entrepreneurs when they're starting up, like, don't outsource your sampling. If you get opportunities to demo in store, you do the demo, don't outsource it to an agency because they did five other products five days ago, and 10 days ago, and 15 days ago, and they're not going to give you the real feedback. And they're not going to continue to press consumers or potential consumers for the answers to questions that you have in your head. They're just an outside demo agency. But then to go back to your original question, what I would say is, I never think that something in the beverage space is going to be on a linear path to, you know, just, you know, a hockey stick or whatever. I mean, this is a business where certain elements of it are just on a goal frame, not a timeline. And the goal frame is, when does discovery happen? Then when does acceptance happen? And then the third step is, when do those a core amount of consumers incorporate these drinks into their daily new regimen? And that's when they start telling friends and influencing others. And of course, there are modern social media ways of influencing others and pouring accelerant on that. But in the earliest stage, it's still a one-to-one, hand-to-hand combat game.
[00:16:39] Ray Latif: Well, this prickly Paloma that Parch makes is really appealing to me because again, it tastes like a Paloma, but it has a different take on the Paloma in that they're using prickly pear juice, which is not a typical ingredient that you would see in one. And I love that differentiation. So if there's 15 Paloma, non-alcoholic Palomas on shelf, this one's going to stand out to me because it has that differentiation to it.
[00:17:04] Ken Sadowsky: I agree, but, and also because parch has agave as their DNA. So they're going to lean in on things that are prickly pear and you know, that kind of thing. So it's the desert.
[00:17:15] Ray Latif: Yeah. You know, just shifting away from adult non-elk for a second and talking about another category that we chatted about in our last conversation. Prebiotic, better for you. Probiotic, better for you. So it is. Earlier this year, PepsiCo acquired Poppy for nearly $2 billion. If you want to exempt the tax benefits of the deal, it was about $1.65 billion. Alipop, which is projecting to do about a half billion in sales this year, not acquired yet. You've been pretty clear that this is not a category, this is not a segment of the CSD space that you have a ton of belief in. Do you have more belief now that Poppy's been acquired?
[00:18:00] Ken Sadowsky: No, I think Poppy did a great job building a brand. I think that efficacy is so far down the hierarchy of why people are buying it that, you know, Pepsi bought a brand. And I guess the analogy that I would use or the example that I think is analogous to that is The iPhone 17 is getting announced imminently. And, you know, Apple's 16 Pro and the 16 lineup is the first iPhone in the history of iPhones to have a minus sign in front of it. When you look at the total buying of iPhones, everything has been a plus. until this year, they're down just under 1% or 0.8%. As in, in terms of pre-sales? No, the 16, the one that's out now, did not grow the franchise, the iPhone franchise. And it's Apple's misinterpretation of thinking that consumers wanted AI. Consumers today have shown with the iPhone they want better battery life, better camera, or a better screen, but AI was what Apple rested their laurels on for making this phone sales grow, and they missed. So even companies like Apple can miss.
[00:19:17] Ray Latif: I love that analogy. Give the customer what they want, not what you think they want. And what people want in CSDs, and they've been saying for a long time, are lower calories, lower sugar, but the same great taste. And I think you brought up taste as the key problem, if I can say that, with a lot of these better for you sodas. A surmountable issue. Surmountable. So they can get better taste, you think? Correct. Okay.
[00:19:41] Ken Sadowsky: How come they haven't done it yet? Well, I still think that there's that sort of Indiana Jones searching for the best tasting non-nutritive sweetener. And I don't think it's one that will be there. I think there are going to be continued new evolutions and ingredients that work well, let's say, you know, in a carbocooler, like, so it's just a soda. And that same ingredient might not be good if you have to, like in a coffee, do ultra hot flash pasteurization and retort. You know, it might not be the same sweetener for each, but sweeteners are getting better. But to me, you know, like Stevia still has a linger of bitter. Although if one thinks about and tastes what Reb A tasted like or tastes like, and then you look at the Reb M that is the evolution of Stevia, then even that's gotten better. So I think we're heading to the right place.
[00:20:43] Ray Latif: You said Poppy built a great brand. When I talked to the founders of Olipop last year, it was clear they were building a business for the longterm, or at least to me, it felt like that. They talked about how they had finally achieved profitability for a particular quarter. And for listeners out there who are asking the question, is it better to build a great business or a great brand? What would be your answer?
[00:21:09] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, either can work. I personally am the kind of investor and person that wants to be with a great business. A brand can be subject to consumer flippant reactions to things. And, you know, certainly not to put Bud Light in a, you know, a pejorative light or in something where they did one thing and it screwed them up, but they did one thing and it screwed them up. And that's a real brand and it's a real business. But if they didn't have a foundation on which to stand, that brand would be vaporized today doing a mistake that big.
[00:21:49] Ray Latif: Yeah, it was really shocking, I think. I mean, forget about the context. It was just so shocking to see a brand that is so beloved as Americana, as anything, just take a nosedive as much as it did.
[00:22:04] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, that is the impact of social media and influencers and just, you know, a snowball effect of, yeah, I mean, it's really surprising to me. It couldn't have happened 20 or 30 years ago before all of the touch points that are out there today. It really is surprising.
[00:22:23] Ray Latif: That's a really good point. I think, you know, you got to be very, very careful about what you put out there. Which is kind of sad. I mean, I like brands that take a stand. I do like businesses that are about something. And if you really feel strongly about something, great. I think when businesses hedge a little bit about who they are and what they represent, I think that's when they represent nothing, right? You gotta be about something.
[00:22:48] Ken Sadowsky: Yes. I mean, authenticity is a really big core competency of any brand that I've been a part of. It's not the only way to make it, but that's sort of my internal compass for, you know, with whom I will be involved.
[00:23:05] Ray Latif: Here's a brand that I just picked up. It was the closest one to me, or this product. It's a brand called Liquid Youth. I'm familiar with this brand. They make sparkling collagen waters. This is their summer peach variety. It comes in a 12-ounce slim can. On the back, it describes the key ingredient as a premium grass-fed bovine collagen peptides type 1 and 3. I don't know what any of that means, which is fine. It's fine. I'm not necessarily their target customer.
[00:23:33] Ken Sadowsky: We know it's not for vegans.
[00:23:35] Ray Latif: We know that. We know that. Let's crack this open. It's got zero grams of sugar. It's got four grams of fiber and 11 grams of premium collagen peptides. All right, here we go. Cool. I like the name. You know, it fits with what it is and does supposedly. Smells good. Smells like peach. Smells like peach. Tastes like peach.
[00:23:59] Ken Sadowsky: Little on the sweeter side. That's a non-nutritive sweetener to me that's coming through. What do you think it is? I don't think it's stevia.
[00:24:06] Ray Latif: It could be a stevia blend. It says stevia sweet, excuse me, stevia leaf sweetener. I thought there was a similar resveratrol in here. It's not as, it's not as cloying or overwhelming as some things are.
[00:24:20] Ken Sadowsky: It doesn't have the bitter. So I, I would suspect that it's Reb M or one of the later versions of Stevia, but this is also developed by Lance Lee, who made all of the flavors for Bang. And so he does no flavor and he does no ingredients and, uh, it's well done.
[00:24:40] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think formulation wise, this is a, this is a great tasting beverage. Not necessarily for some because of the key selling point of collagen and, you know, the sweetener might throw some people off as well. I know collagen and just protein in general has been on trend in beverage and I think throughout CPG. Is sparkling water the right vehicle for collagen? I don't know. What are your thoughts?
[00:25:07] Ken Sadowsky: My thoughts are that food technology is enabling, and in this case beverage technology, is enabling different ingredients to be mixed with things that could have been perceived in the past as counterintuitive. So I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, I might not have tried a carbonated beverage with that degree of functionality. because I would have doubted that it had efficacy. And today I say, well, are they nano encapsulating this or are they making just a dose that is strong enough to do it? Now, there's also the thought of, you know, if I'm going to be taking collagen, should I just be taking a cream and rubbing it on my face? Sure.
[00:25:46] Ray Latif: And I don't know.
[00:25:47] Ken Sadowsky: I don't I don't know the answer to that. So, you know, this is one of those ones where I look at it and I say, I'm from Missouri, show me that this works and then, you know, I'll be a believer. But these are early stage things today.
[00:26:01] Ray Latif: I think I asked you this once before. This is not a product that it seems like you would use on a regular basis or consume on a regular basis. Does that prohibit you from wanting to invest in it?
[00:26:11] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, I guess I wear two hats. One is for Verlinvest, the Belgian InBev family. And the other one is for me as an angel investor. So for me as an angel, I would say if I don't believe in the product, if I don't want it in my refrigerator, I probably would not be an investor. I guess there's an exception to that. I've got Casa Azul tequila, which I drink, but it's not in my refrigerator.
[00:26:37] Ray Latif: That is a technicality more than an exception, Ken. Yeah. This is also a product or a brand, Liquid Youth, that I feel like I would encounter at Expo West. You know, I have a lot of thoughts on that trade show. I've talked about it a lot on the podcast. And if the founders of Liquid Youth were at Expo West, I would hope that they would get a lot of attention. I hope they would get a lot of visits. It's just so hard to stand out there, though. whether it's Expo West or really any trade show. It's expensive. You're hoping to meet people more than you are saying, I'm going to meet this retailer, this investor, this media publication. In your experience, how should brands or founders make that splash? What reason have you had to stop by a booth to want to learn more? Is it as simple as, you know, store checks where if it's something new, you want to go and check them out?
[00:27:37] Ken Sadowsky: Yes, I mean, I say two things about Expo West. One is, it's my Super Bowl. I can't even think about booking appointments with people. I just get on the show floor and do my thing. And then the other thing is, it's really bad math. Right? At the end of the day, a brand is looking for maybe 200 category managers that could be out there that could put their product on the right store shelves. So that's one needle in a haystack. And the second thing is there's a number of investors that are out there, but in a trade show environment, it's, you know, speed dating on steroids. Like you don't know the history of this brand. There's a lot of people out there that have money and a smiley face and I wanna invest in your brand, but the right investor and the right brand is really like either a relationship or a marriage, and it's gotta be carefully considered. And so it's just tough. So that's the other element of it that I say is bad math. But you need Expo West for that? I don't know if you need it. It's like I said, all of these encounters aren't steroids. They're just all lightning speed dating fast. You know, it just, it's crazy.
[00:28:56] Ray Latif: I just wonder how much this, obviously there is no real answer for this, but I'll ask it anyway. I wonder how much it actually moves the needle, right? Your chances of success are pretty low to begin with. Are your chances of success significantly increased percentage wise or however you would, you know, do the math by being at Expo West and having a booth presence at the show?
[00:29:20] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, I would say if it's 10% of a company's marketing budget, then depending on the sector that it's in, it might be worth it. If it's, you know, 50%, then I would say get in by hook or by crook and just walk around with a backpack and start, you know, looking for people that can direct you to the right people to get the product to either for an investment or potentially or for authorization at the right chain. And at some point, if you can't afford a booth, you literally could be looking for just one authorization. It could happen.
[00:29:56] Ray Latif: Yeah. You know, you were chuckling when you were saying that, but I think that's excellent tactical advice, Ken. I think if you have a marketing budget of 10%, that's going to be dedicated. If your marketing budget for Expo West, or I guess all of the expenses combined for Expo West represent 10% of your marketing budget, maybe it's worth it. If it's 50%, don't do it. I think that's a great way of looking at it. Because Expo West is extremely expensive for brands and, you know, other founders and operators have talked about, you know, how do you determine ROI? It's almost impossible. But I think if you're looking at how much money you have and how much money you have to spend, that's a good way, what you described as a good way of looking at it. Quick plug for our Taste Radio meetup in London, which is happening on October 2nd. That's a Thursday at the offices of Trip in Dotting Hill. You're going to be in London, possibly at our meetup. I'm going to keep bugging you until you actually show up. I know you have things to do. It's just sort of coincidence that we're going to be there at the same time. Yes. You were so kind and amazing actually to help us produce our Taste Radio Miami meetup. We'll be back in Miami next year, TBD on dates and location, hopefully around the same time, February and hopefully at the same location. And hopefully at a post dinner at Joe's Stone Crab. Absolutely. You know, when I talk about the UK and I talk about an amazing city like London, there's no, you know, we mentioned New York. There's no real parallel in terms of how CPG works, you know, in London and anywhere else. It's just not the same market as a New York City, but. The last time I was there, I was really impressed with some of the brands I saw. This is a brand I did not see. Toucan. We'll wait on that one. But here's a brand called FIRST. F-H-I-R-S-T. I know this brand is trying to break into the U.S. market because I sat down with the founder, Steven. I'm going to destroy his last name so I'm not even going to try to pronounce it. But Steven came to BevNET Live in New York City and I sat down with him as part of our Taste Radio studio at the event. This is a better-for-you soda with a functional component as well. It has billions, as described, billions of micro-encapsulated probiotics. There's a lot going on in the front of the can. It actually looks like a Mountain Dew almost, right? Yes. You brought this. Yes. What interested you in this brand?
[00:32:18] Ken Sadowsky: I mean, when a brand is this little, I'm sort of betting on the people. And in this case, the people are both Stephen, who you just alluded to, and then there's a woman named Hip Brooke. And her brother Giles was the guy that helped launch Vita Coco the UK. And she was Giles' marketing person. She's just got a very good head on her shoulders, good insight. And she likes this brand. So at this point, I would sort of be betting on the people. But I also, you know, when someone's mixing prebiotics and probiotics, it's like, the probiotics will eat the prebiotics. That's what they're going to do. His answer to that is microencapsulation, which to me, again, I'm far from being a scientist, but that at least makes sense. That's logical to me.
[00:33:08] Ray Latif: Yes. I'm glad you brought up the fact that it has prebiotics and probiotics. It is five grams of prebiotic fiber, but The front of the can, to me, doesn't say prebiotic or probiotic. It says, this is a soda akin to a Mountain Dew. Even the name of the flavor, pineapple eusuphoria. And it's weird because there's like, it has first splashed, literally, literally splashed across the front of the can. And then there's these wild horses seemingly running around. There's a lot going on, like I said. So are you an investor advisor in this brand?
[00:33:40] Ken Sadowsky: I am nothing in the brand other than an interested party and I'm rooting for them because I like the people.
[00:33:46] Ray Latif: OK. I mean, in terms of taste, I think it's kind of what we talked about. You know, the entire category has a bit of an issue just nailing down that flavor that that everyone expects when they're going to drink a soda. It is good. I think it can be even better.
[00:34:03] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, I would say that it could be brighter. And the way I define brighter normally is just sweeter. But in this case, I think it would just be more yuzu would make it brighter by having it be more tart.
[00:34:17] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. The pineapple comes through. The yuzu, you want it to shine even more. So if, yeah, if you're going to describe a flavor as having two components, definitely make sure both components are in there. I'm looking for another UK-based brand. I'm trying to find one. Is there one you see here on the table?
[00:34:34] Ken Sadowsky: No, I don't.
[00:34:35] Ray Latif: Okay. All right. Well, you know what? I'm glad we had first, at least. First and last, as it were.
[00:34:41] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, no, I don't see any others. No. And I know why. And the reason is.
[00:34:47] Ray Latif: Because you already brought them over here and sipped them.
[00:34:49] Ken Sadowsky: I brought them over here and maybe had some of your colleagues out to Lala Java coffee shop in Northborough. OK. And we went through a pretty good batch of tasting components.
[00:35:01] Ray Latif: Yeah, I had to miss that. I forget exactly why I had to miss that. Oh. I had an interview with the Oscar-nominated actor William H. Macy, who is a partner in a brand called Woody Creek Distillers. Really interesting interview. I really enjoyed sitting down with him. If you haven't had an opportunity to listen to it, it's actually dropped the day of this recording. So I have a feeling listeners will know what I'm talking about. But if you don't, Taste Radio.com. I'm going to listen to it on the way home. There you go. Thank you. OK, so the brand I thought was based in the UK is not. It's called Orange Toucan.
[00:35:39] Ken Sadowsky: It's only one can.
[00:35:40] Ray Latif: It only comes. Really nice branding. That's new. Yeah, it's you can. You can definitely read it from across the room. This particular variety, which is a watermelon and lime flavor. It comes in this wrapped purple pastel kind of color sleeve sleeve. You don't know too much about it. It just says Orange Toucan. The next line is moringa infused. And then the flavor name, watermelon and lime. And it also describes it as being made with ginger and turmeric.
[00:36:10] Ken Sadowsky: Yes. And there are three people involved with this company, I think as co-founders. And I know and respect two of them. Kevin Clock is one.
[00:36:20] Ray Latif: You don't respect the other one?
[00:36:21] Ken Sadowsky: No, I don't know the other one.
[00:36:24] Ray Latif: Just giving you grief, Ken. It's okay. Everyone does. almost daily. Kevin Clock, as you mentioned, is one of them.
[00:36:30] Ken Sadowsky: Yes. And then Ron Fornier, one of my Great State Blue Coast distributor, former colleagues.
[00:36:37] Ray Latif: Yeah. Still a friend, former colleague. Kevin Clock, who... Sparkling Ice. Yes, Sparkling Ice led that company for so many years. Ron Fornier, I remember when we were doing our Beverage Cool platform, which is being Um, well, I shouldn't spill the beans on that. So let's just hold off on any discussion about beverage school. But I remember sitting down with Ron Fournier, who was given sort of the 4-1-1 on what it takes to align with a distributor and then thrive with a distributor.
[00:37:04] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, he was a great defining rod for brands, which brands were going to make it, which brands were not going to make it. And then also a really good conduit to several key retailers, including MarketBasket.
[00:37:19] Ray Latif: So the one thing about this on the front of the can, I don't see a real like a statement of identity. I don't know what this is. It doesn't describe itself as like a sparkling beverage or a juice based beverage or anything like that. On the back above the nutrition facts panel, it says it contains 65% juice. And when I poured this, I wasn't expecting to see a juice type beverage. It's a little more viscous. It's still, there's no sparkle to it. And on the back it says it's powered by Moringa, 500 milligrams of Moringa. And then it says gram per gram has more vitamin C than in oranges, iron than in spinach, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So if you know anything about Moringa, you're already expecting these things. If you don't, I don't know if you know what you're getting into with Orange Toucan.
[00:38:02] Ken Sadowsky: Look, I've several things to say about this. One of them is in the name, they want you to buy two of them. So I think that's a great marketing point just off the bat. Fair enough. The second thing is I do know enough about Moringa just from a flavor standpoint to say that they've done a really good job to mitigate the bitter aftertaste of most Moringa products. Those would be my sort of, I guess, primary and secondary opinions. You know, it's a good tasting product and they want you to buy two of them. And there's way more than one flavor. I just don't remember the other flavors. And this is also Orange Toucan because The original packaging was in a silver can, more colorful, way more influence on the actual bird. And that was really an opportunity for a disconnect, unless toucans eat a lot of moringa, which I don't know.
[00:38:58] Ray Latif: Yes, to be clear, toucan is spelled T-O-U-C-A-N, not T-W-O-C-A-N. Yes, there's a little birdie on that. Yes, there is, in between the two words, Orange Toucan toucan. So I was expecting more calories too. This has 35 calories per can and eight grams of sugar per can. The first ingredient is watermelon juice and describes it as flesh and rind and then everything else. It is sweetened with a bit of monk fruit extract. I guess I would pull this off the shelf just because of the packaging. Would I buy it a second time? I think only if I were interested in Moringa, because the Moringa, you can taste a bit of it. And I think that's the primary reason you're buying this is that it's a functional beverage more than it is a refreshment beverage. Correct. But I kind of feel like they're trying to straddle the line between the two, right?
[00:39:43] Ken Sadowsky: Well, possibly, but what I was going to say was I would rather see a product like this, where they know that they're just leaning in on Moringa than what I call a kitchen sink product, where it's like, we're going to put a little bit of Moringa, then we're going to do collagen, then we're going to do, you know, prebiotics. And then, you know, and all of a sudden it's like, I'm dizzy just thinking about this proposition.
[00:40:04] Ray Latif: Yeah.
[00:40:04] Ken Sadowsky: So I, I mean, this does fall under the, it's functional, but keep it simple.
[00:40:10] Ray Latif: Fair enough. There are two other brands that use Moringa that stand out to me that I've known for some time. Well, Cooley Cooley for sure, which is a brand of Moringa based beverages and I would call them snacks. They have gummies essentially. And then Ringa, R-I-N-G, which was founded by an entrepreneur by the name of Stephanie McGregor. They're very much function forward and function first and foremost. But you know, for most people, Moringa is just not a word you've heard. I guess you could describe it as innovation because it is an ingredient that has not typically been used in beverages. Would you define it? How do you define innovation, Ken?
[00:40:49] Ken Sadowsky: Well, I mean, innovation in beverage is something that hasn't existed before. And food and beverage tech are enabling more functional innovation than in the past. And that is kind of What I look for personally, like if you had to, I guess, hone in on one singular thing that I'm looking for in store checks or trade shows or whatever, it's white space. Because white space to me is where if I can be part of a team that helps a product get from no one's ever heard of any of these ingredients or this product to somewhere in the mainstream, then that's really rewarding. Hopefully it's, you know, rewarding both for monetary purposes and for making consumers healthier. I'd like to see it be a win, win, win. And then if it can be done very sustainably, then it's, you know, good for the earth as well. That's sort of that triple bottom line that would be awesome.
[00:41:57] Ray Latif: A lot of the brands that have described themselves as innovative and are better for you and better for the earth require explanation, require education, which as everyone knows is very expensive. Is there cheap education for, is there any kind of cheap education for innovation? Have you seen brands that have really done well in describing themselves as innovative while not breaking the bank?
[00:42:19] Ken Sadowsky: I would say that I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are, I mean, there's so many ways of getting messages out there today that can be efficient monetarily. And then there are ones where it looks like it was done efficiently, and then you just have no idea how many times they tried and failed spending money in other places. So at the end of the day, it wasn't an effective or cost-effective way of getting the message out. But, I mean, you know, the needle in a haystack reference comes to mind again when, you know, it's like, hey, they captured this moment on TikTok and it just went viral. And it illuminated all of the components of something being a sustainable product with an enigmatic ingredient that someone was able to explain quickly and it resonated with consumers.
[00:43:07] Ray Latif: That is a really hard needle to find in a haystack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I just, you know, I mean, unless there's a point of reference, right, or there's just no innovation to it. You and I were at the Red Sox game a couple weeks ago, and you brought up a brand called 6-7 Water. And I had no idea what this was. I think I actually read about it. Maybe Jerry from BBI wrote about this. It basically is a play on a phrase that is really popular with the Gen Alpha and Gen Z generations or kids, people, potential consumers, where 6'7 represents a line in a rap song. It also represents the height of a basketball player. It also, I think, can mean sort of so-so, as in six-sevens, like nothing great, nothing terrible.
[00:43:54] Ken Sadowsky: Like six of one half dozen of another.
[00:43:56] Ray Latif: Exactly. So there's not one specific meaning to it, but it is a popular phrase with the kids. And there's a brand out there that named themselves 6-7. There's a basketball player behind it. You know more about this than I do.
[00:44:08] Ken Sadowsky: I know more about it foundationally because it was being a college basketball junkie and having attended the Final Four. This past April in San Antonio, one of my coach friends brought me out to an NIL day of like classroom type stuff. And it was one of the days when the basketball was not happening. And I went out there and I learned a lot. And actually the people from It's Overtime are the people that are doing this. brand and one of the guys whose name is Dan is an ex-IMG guy, so he knows about sports, sports marketing, promoting, and then there was a younger guy who was sort of in charge of this activation or this project whose name is Jack. Well, Jack came to BebNet in New York to watch the 98 Strong presentation that you guys had. It was unfortunately during part of the New Brand Showdown. So I took off to go see the 98 Strong thing and miss some more of your New Brand Showdown.
[00:45:09] Ray Latif: I noticed you were in the room. I was devastated. I, uh, actually, if people recall that I came up on stage and there were some tears in my eyes, it was midway through the competition. Oh boy, it's getting thick here. I forgot to wear my boots today, sports fans. I'm verklempt. It's bringing me back to that moment, Ken. I don't know why you hurt me.
[00:45:30] Ken Sadowsky: No, I'm sorry. Please go ahead. Okay. So, but anyway, I guess this is one of those examples of something that They, the caretakers of the brand of 6-7, want to take a viral moment and see how long they can make it last. And this is one where I'm too old to figure out how long this can last. So I will just be an observer in this case.
[00:45:56] Ray Latif: Yeah. I mean, it's been off to a great start based on the reports that I've seen. It's one of the fastest growing water brands online. What that means, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. If it's, you know, making millions at this point, or if it's just fast growing and that went from zero to, you know, 50,000 cases, or I don't know, I don't know how they define fastest growing in this case, but it does seem to have some traction. I think the point of reference for consumers is that it's easy, it's water, and that for younger consumers, it's just cool to have it in your hand. It's almost prime. Prime-ish. It's Prime-ish. Yes. And, and you, by the way, were so spot on with the problems that Prime has been encountering over the past year. And Ken's not smiling. He's just biting his lip right now.
[00:46:43] Ken Sadowsky: What I said was, you know, talk to me in a year because the product was on fire. They couldn't make it fast enough. And it was just, you know, en fuego, as they say. But there were two sort of things that gave me pause or reasons to question. One was, It came from nowhere and got so high so fast without seemingly any foundational reason for it getting there. And if you as the caretaker of the brand don't understand how and why you are getting there so fast, it makes it nearly impossible to sustain. So I think those are the things. And then, you know, the other thing is having been a distributor, when I spoke to distributors, they were like, I can't get the product. The people are really bad at customer service. And there were just things that set a supplier up to not be successful because distributors were around before this brand. and will probably be around after this brand or any brand. So you just have to treat people the way you want to be treated.
[00:47:50] Ray Latif: Yeah. Be nice to your distributors. They're not going to sell your product. They're going to get it on shelf. You have to do the legwork and you have to do the hard work of selling your actual product. But if you don't have a distributor, you'll never get it on shelf. So there's that. You and I could, I mean, we could just keep going for ages and ages, but we have so many products on the table here and I want to just get to two more and then we haven't had lunch yet and I promised you lunch. So, all right.
[00:48:14] Ken Sadowsky: I will work for food.
[00:48:15] Ray Latif: So Cadence is a brand that I've seen a number of times and I've seen this a number of times and I still don't necessarily know what this is. I'm sorry. The founders of Cadence I know are good people, but I'm holding two of their varieties in my hand. They are described as electrolyte hydration. There are two flavors. One's a citrus, one's a watermelon mojito, and I believe this one It looks like it's for the UK, the Watermelon Mojito, because it describes the can as being a 355 milliliter can, whereas the citrus is a 12 ounce can. What are your thoughts on Cadence? Let's crack one open, by the way. Sure. My thoughts on Cadence are as follows.
[00:48:59] Ken Sadowsky: Really sharp UK original entrepreneur. I want to say Scottish, maybe. Okay. And he's had a success in another category, it wasn't beverage, and I'm drawing a blank as to what the product was or project was, but he's certainly identified what the core consumer would want from an isotonic beverage. I, you know, this is one of those ones where I go, Kenny is too old to really understand this because I just think there's a disconnect between carbonation and an isotonic beverage. Like I want to make sure I'm properly hydrated before I start a workout. And then I also want something for post recovery. And I also know that this is going to digress just a bit, but that I think the difference between the cans is one of them is caffeinated and the other one's not.
[00:49:52] Ray Latif: OK, so that's a problem in itself that I don't know which one is caffeinated and which one is not. I just wish it would scream hydration or isotonic or something on the front of the can. It's also, I think, the hierarchy of details next to the brand name, which is positioned vertically on the front of the can. It says Core and there's an underline. And it says 500 underlined, it says milligrams of sodium underlined, electrolyte hydration, and then underlined again, and then the flavor name. So it's 500 milligrams of sodium. Right. Which is too much for me. Yeah. And I actually thought that they were selling something that was described as Core 500. I thought there was maybe a trademark term related to the brand in some way. But I don't know if 500 milligrams, if you do read it and understand what it is, I don't know if 500 milligrams of sodium is really describing what this is as much as it needs to. I think helping the consumer and making sure you're hand-holding, at least at the beginning, and making sure that it's very, very clear without them having to spend more than 10 seconds, and they're not going to spend 10 seconds, is going to go a long way. I do like the flavor. It feels like it's liquid IV, but in RTD form in so many ways. I just think you need to be a lot clearer on the front of the can about what you are.
[00:51:08] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, well, I agree. I think the liquid is good. Yeah, really good, actually. It's one of those things where, for me, if I knew it had 500 milligrams, I would be hard-pressed to drink an entire unit. So I'm fine sampling it, but it would be difficult for me, given my age and BMI, to be consuming 500 milligrams of... But look, I mean, sodium is an electrolyte, so they are calling their payload of electrolytes from the 500 milligrams of sodium.
[00:51:42] Ray Latif: Great segue to the last beverage I want to try here, which I don't even know how to pronounce. Glucoserol? Is that right?
[00:51:50] Ken Sadowsky: Yeah, this is an interesting product from people that are from Central America and big investors. And they are only shipping this stuff to Miami today. It's counter a lot of the trends that are out there, but people love this beverage. I mean, they're core consumer. And I mean, I guess just an example of somebody that's in this zone. This is what Electrolit was 10 years ago. before it came to the U.S. in a big way. It's not analogous.
[00:52:20] Ray Latif: That's a bold statement, though.
[00:52:21] Ken Sadowsky: Is that what you believe? No, I'm just saying it's analogous to that because this is a wildly successful product in, I want to say, Guatemala. It's done by a big, powerful family that has a giant following in their native country for this product, like Electrolyte had in Mexico. So the liquid's not analogous, but the branding is. Company is.
[00:52:46] Ray Latif: Yeah. I don't love the name. Glucosterol. I wish they would change that. It is very clear that's an electrolyte beverage because it says it right on the front of the bottle. Also described as premium hydration. This is their coconut flavor. Artificially coconut flavored, which I don't necessarily love. It comes in a sports bottle with a sports cap. But a wide mouth.
[00:53:04] Ken Sadowsky: That's an interesting package.
[00:53:05] Ray Latif: Yeah, the coconut is really strong, which is a good thing. I mean, if it's going to call yourself coconut, be coconut. But yeah, I wonder about the potential for a brand that was successful in Guatemala and its potential success in the U.S., maybe Miami?
[00:53:23] Ken Sadowsky: Right. No, I think what they're doing right now is just supplying or fulfilling a consumer need, like from their countries of dominance, there are enough consumers of it in Miami that they're just shipping this to Miami. This is not an aspirational launch for the U.S. And I think the family is successful beverage people. I think they've got Pepsi franchise in their country and they also are beer family, if I'm not mistaken. So they would know enough to Americanize the product from a name, from a flavor. You know, again, this is foundationally, hey, we've been doing this for a long time. We know what we're doing, but we also understand that this is a different consumer.
[00:54:06] Ray Latif: Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I sometimes get emails or meet founders who have built brands in other countries and they want to come to the U.S. I think the question is, is there a need for your brand? Is there a need for your product? Are people asking for it? If that's the case, and you believe that, then you can take those baby steps and see what you might be able to do with your product or brand. But be careful. I do see brand owners who are coming from other countries and it seems like they're spending an arm and a leg to push a product that people don't necessarily want. Ken, you gifted me this amazing t-shirt, and I promised to wear it on stage at BevNET Live, and I still have not done that. If you're not watching the video, it says, I am a ray, and to be clear, it's in this bright mustard yellow color. I am a ray of F-U-C-K-I-N-G. What is that? What is that word? I'm a ray of effing sunshine. And I love this shirt so much, and it's very appropriate given my name and just general disposition.
[00:55:15] Ken Sadowsky: Right. I thought it was completely appropriate. And for those of you not seeing this on video, I would just say the colors are Pittsburgh Pirates colors.
[00:55:24] Ray Latif: Yes. Yes. I said yellow mustard. There was a bit of French's to it, but I think you're spot on with the Pittsburgh Steelers did have an opening day win, so thank you so much for this. Of course. I will wear it on stage at BevNET Live one day. And thank you so much for just another amazing conversation, Ken. I really feel like we could sit here all afternoon. I don't want to take up all your time. I'm sure you're done hearing my voice and hearing me sit down on soapboxes and my multiple soapboxes over here. You're the best. And I thank you so much for all your contributions to this industry. You being a great partner to the brands you're involved with. You're being a great advisor to everyone that you talk to and for being such a great friend to me. You've been a really positive influence on me as a mentor and as a friend. So thank you.
[00:56:15] Ken Sadowsky: No, thank you. And thanks for the kind words. And it's really, like I said at the outset, it's an honor and a privilege to be here. And I'm just glad you guys keep asking me back. And it really is a blast to do this with you.
[00:56:29] Ray Latif: Yes. Shout out Barry Nathanson, who's going to listen to this until the end. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
[00:57:28] SPEAKER_02: you
