[00:00:03] John Craven: Hey, how about that guitar riff? I'm really enjoying that. It's Ray LaTee from BevNET. I'm here with John Craven. I'm here with Jon Landis. You know all of us. And we're here for another edition of the BevNET Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. John Craven, how the heck are you?
[00:00:19] Jon Landis: You know, I'm good. It's hot outside. It's July. Yeah, it is hot outside. Good time for beverage consumption.
[00:00:26] John Craven: Lots of beverages on the table right now. We'll get to that in a moment. But I should ask you, Landis, how are you doing?
[00:00:32] Jeffrey Klineman: Oh, I'm doing good, you know. A little vacay and coming back, a little re-entry. But now you're back in the swing of things.
[00:00:38] Martín Caballero: Re-entry? Where'd you go? The moon? Yeah. Great.
[00:00:41] John Craven: Yeah, it seemed like a lot of people in the office have been out of the office. A lot of people working for BevNET have been out of the office this past month. Yourself included. Myself included. I returned from a little vacation, which was very, very nice. Refreshing. Very refreshing. Yeah. But as we come back to the office, we come back to a deluge of coffee. So much cold brew on the market that we figured we should be talking about this and talk about what's working, what isn't working, and if this is going to be something that is a category that just becomes kind of muddled. Who's going to break out and why? And we're just going to try to flesh that out in the next, oh, 20, 25 minutes or so. How's that sound? Sounds great. Okay, cool. We were just kind of looking at what's been in our fridge and what's been reviewed over the last two months. And it seems to be dominated by cold brew products on the market. You know, we've seen cans, we've seen bottles, we've seen different ways of marketing your product, labeling your product. John Craven, I mean, you know, what's your take on all these different varieties coming to market?
[00:01:37] Martín Caballero: Well, I think I'd also add in that just in the course of my travels this summer, which I was out in California for a while, and also even in our travels for BevNET Live and the Fancy Food Show, I feel like everywhere I go, there's just more and more cold brew coming out of everywhere. I mean, when I was in San Diego, there's Modern Times, which is a local craft brewery. that's gaining some traction. You know, they have a cold brew in a can that they're producing. Everyone sort of wants a piece of this. And, you know, just even in stores going into random Whole Foods stores, for example, it's crazy. It's one of the, I think, few sort of product categories where there are like really small startups that all they do is make small batch cold brew. It feels pretty similar to what we were seeing with cold-pressed juice a few years ago. I mean, and of course, you know, cold brew has been around for probably just as long at this point as cold-pressed juice, but for whatever reason, it's something that really seems to be getting a lot of shelf space and attention right now. I think as we've talked about in some of the product reviews and maybe in other podcasts and stuff, I think finding a point of differentiation is really sort of the hard thing for all of these companies right now. The flavor profiles are really pretty nuanced and similar in a lot of cases. So, you know, you look at a big shelf set of cold brew or in a Whole Foods, it's like there's cold brew in the beverage cooler, there's cold brew in the prepared foods, there's house-made cold brew in the store. But it's hard to really get a sense of like what the differences are between all these products. So that's something I find really interesting just in terms of looking around our own office, like how many products there are that basically are pitching the same thing.
[00:03:13] John Craven: They're pitching the same thing and the elephant in the room in the category is the big players that have yet to really make their mark on this category, including Starbucks and including Pete's, which just recently announced that they're going to get into the category, an RTD cold brew intelligence. Both of them have. Yeah, Intelligentsia has teased a cold brew. They did so at Expo West. When they actually are going to release that product is still unknown at this point. But yeah, for some of the smaller players, that's one of the questions we had for Cold Press Juices. How can some of these brands stand out in the category? How can they really make their mark? Jon Landis, you know, what are some of the ways you've seen some products kind of find their way to the front of the fridge, as it were?
[00:03:57] Jeffrey Klineman: As we're talking about all this, as we just started this podcast, I started writing a list of all these coffee companies that do cold brew. And I think I'm up to about 25 different brands just off the top of my head here.
[00:04:09] Martín Caballero: And there's gotta be, I would imagine, you know, another 30 or 40 more. I would say well over a hundred if you factor in all of the little regional brands and stuff.
[00:04:17] Jeffrey Klineman: I have a couple of them here because I'm familiar with them. But looking at some of these, visualizing the bottles and whatever packaging they have in my head, I think packaging really is the answer to your question, right? How do you differentiate in this category? I mean, through the concentrate or ready to drink, I think is a big factor of differentiation. And then through the packaging format, there's New Brew out there that has a cold pressed juice bottle and the HPP. We have Wandering Bear, the bag and box, office delivery type of style. Committing to a packaging style that defines you can be a way to differentiate. But I totally agree with you that the flavor profiles, these are all high quality products. We've said years ago when we started seeing cold brew come into the market and starting to really emerge that it's a much superior product, and this is my opinion, to your traditional hot brewed coffee. It's less acidic, you can drink it black. It's just a really, really good product. But nowadays everyone's using similar beans. You know, everyone's using the high quality stuff for the most part.
[00:05:21] Martín Caballero: Well, I mean, I guess you'll probably get some coffee companies riled up by saying everyone's pretty much using the same thing. But I think the point is that from the consumer perspective.
[00:05:30] Jeffrey Klineman: That's my point. As someone who's just going to drink a coffee in the morning to get going, your average consumer isn't going to notice a huge difference in quality of beans for the most part. There's no Folgers cold brew yet. But yeah, sorry to be a hater. But I wanted to call out a brand here that I think does a really good job differentiating as High Brew because they're not just cold brew. They add sugar, they add dairy, they're shelf stable. I've always been of the opinion that they're a transitional cold brew product from your Starbucks Frappuccino drinker who wants to get into whatever this new wave thing is. High Brew is going to be there. I was always a little personally skeptical of that being in that once you get someone starting to drink cold brew and they start playing around with the other cold brew products out there, are they going to be loyal to your brand? But looking at where we are now, where it is very hard to differentiate with just a straight black RTD cold brew on flavor, I think that they're doing a really fantastic job standing out.
[00:06:29] John Craven: Well, they've also kind of established themselves in their own sort of segment. There are some brands within the category feels like it is sort of segmented. There are a lot on the premium sort of, this is what we are and this is what kind of everyone else is sort of level. Hybrids really sort of established themselves as almost like an energy drink kind of thing in that small can. where they're very widely distributed. And I think, you know, to your Jon Landis, was they are sort of that stepping stone from traditional packaged coffee product into something that's a little bit more premium. But at the same time, it's something that's really approachable for a lot of folks as well. And it still has that sugar and milk or not milk, but it has that sugar kind of flavor that people are familiar with.
[00:07:09] Martín Caballero: Well, and that's the thing with ready to drink coffee. There aren't juggernauts. It's a juggernaut of Starbucks. I mean, everybody else is so far behind in terms of where their sales are at. And I think that's something that, like Landis said, it being sort of a transitional brand. I mean, that is kind of the path of least resistance. If you want to get into cold brew is something like a High Brew, and that's not at all a knock on what High Brew is doing. It's also a path that can be very successful, you know, using something like sparkling ice as another example, you know, transitional product from diet CSDs, right? On the other hand, there's all these other brands that are kind of coming at it with either combinations of packaging, like you said, or flavor, sweetness. There's just a lot of different variables that I think we kind of haven't really figured out what the winning combinations are yet. So I think that's something that it really is interesting, just seeing all of the different approaches out there, all the way, you know, one that I saw recently, the Jittery Johns, where it's like, they've got different flavors, they've got different packaging, they're kind of doing a bit of everything.
[00:08:10] John Craven: Yeah, there's a brand, there's a well-known brand that's chameleon, which is sort of doing a little bit of everything. They're doing their RTD, their concentrate, their bag and box, just sort of establishing themselves as, or trying to establish themselves as a brand that can fit a lot of different, I guess, holes, for lack of a better word.
[00:08:25] Jon Landis: Sure.
[00:08:26] John Craven: A lot of different, what is the word I'm looking for? It's not holes.
[00:08:28] Jon Landis: Let's go with holes.
[00:08:31] Jeffrey Klineman: Well, they have a lot of flavors too. So, you know, it's a lot of different types of consumers can be invited into that brand.
[00:08:38] Martín Caballero: Well, and they've done, you know, I think a really good job of keeping sort of a premium vibe within their brand. They've kind of just stayed the course for what they want to be. While I think there are some brands that have experimented here and there, Chameleon has largely been the same thing. Obviously they've added, you know, ready to drink in addition to their concentrates. But as the market continues to evolve, there are obviously going to be different segments of it. high end mainstream, whatever it might be, you know, there's probably going to be the ultra high end. Some of these brands that are out there kind of across the country, I think are somehow selling just a commoditized, basically brown liquid. Right. And I think those are the ones that when, you know, I have concern about what's out there, I think those are the ones that I don't totally understand what sort of a very similar look, very, you know, similar flavor. And, you know, how do you build an actual brand out of those
[00:09:27] Jeffrey Klineman: I mean, do you think we can draw any parallels to craft beer from cold brew coffee?
[00:09:31] Martín Caballero: To me, it seems... Well, I use a craft beer analogy a lot for cold brew, which to me, you know, when people ask about flavors, I say that cold brew is similar or would be similar to craft beer if craft beer only had IPA. You know, like there's only so far you can go. Like it's always going to taste bitter and hoppy, right? And with cold brew, like you can only modify coffee so much. It's still going to be brown liquid that tastes like coffee. And I think that's something that some of the brands wanna make a comparison to it being like craft beer in terms of just how big the opportunity is. But I still think it's something that it's a pretty sort of narrow opportunity in terms of like the breadth of possible products. It's a huge opportunity in that obviously like we consume a lot of coffee. People are looking for better options. I don't know, maybe Starbucks doesn't fit that bill anymore or maybe it converts people from some other coffee retailer or making it at home.
[00:10:22] Jeffrey Klineman: Well, I think there are a couple smaller comparisons that can be drawn as well. A lot of these coffee producers are manufacturing in house. They build up their own facilities. They do their own bottling, especially these hyper regional ones. It seems like every metropolitan region you go to in this country, there's at least one or two local coffee, cold brew brands that are there similar to kombucha too. Everywhere you go in this country, there's a local kombucha brand and they're making it in-house, they're bottling it in-house, they're self-distributing it. I think that, I don't know, maybe those people are content just serving their local region and not really looking to scale to a national level.
[00:10:59] Martín Caballero: Well, that's great if they're content, but that's sort of the dilemma of the beverage business, which is, you know, being content is something that leaves you vulnerable for someone who's not content, but is hungry and wants to go out and Dominate the category.
[00:11:12] Jeffrey Klineman: So if I were someone like that, I would be very worried about what a chameleon or any of those totally I mean worried about a chameleon is definitely a higher Concern than worried about a Starbucks or P for sure because there is always that appeal of the local.
[00:11:27] Martín Caballero: Yeah I mean, you're always going to see a smaller batch or more artisanal than a Starbucks. And oddly enough, I'm drinking the Starbucks cold brew that we just got in the office here.
[00:11:36] John Craven: Which you have in your hand right now.
[00:11:37] Martín Caballero: I have it in my hand. I'm drinking it. I've been drinking it. So if I'm saying anything weird on this podcast, we'll blame this product. It's actually having, you know, had many Starbucks bottled coffees over the years. I think this has actually exceeded my expectations. It's kind of funny, it's got that big company marketing copy, super smooth, but...
[00:11:58] Jeffrey Klineman: It's in a familiar bottle too.
[00:11:59] Martín Caballero: familiar bottle. I mean, it's kind of funny what they've done with this poorly applied paper label. I don't know if that's like intentional to make it look like it's a smaller batch product. It doesn't have that sort of slick graphic that they have on those fully wrapped Frappuccino bottles. But I think if I pick this up and didn't see this label, I would totally think it's one of these entrepreneurial brands.
[00:12:19] Jeffrey Klineman: So the liquid is...
[00:12:21] Martín Caballero: I mean, I think the liquid is good. The issue with something like this versus what's out there, and to get back to point of differentiation, I mean, I think there are options out there that are organic or probably have higher quality or cleaner tasting coffee, but what those brands don't have is this Starbucks name. So That's going to be huge credibility compared with just some random brand that you've never heard of. Be interesting to see how this works paired with their in-store nitro cold brew that they're going to try.
[00:12:49] John Craven: I was going to get to that, actually. You have the Starbucks name as lending you credibility, but it's really not necessarily an innovative product. It's just a product that Starbucks can make and make well. Reality is that some of the innovation that's come in this category has really come from the added nitrogen. You know, we saw that last month with Calafia's rollout of their nitro product. There's only a handful of them. Off the top of my head, I can think of like five on the market at this point for a packaged product.
[00:13:15] Martín Caballero: There's probably more than five at this point, but they're really all pretty small, I would say. Maybe the Stumptown one is the most widely known and widely available, I would imagine.
[00:13:27] John Craven: Yeah. And there's Cuvée, which is from Texas, but I don't know how widely distributed they are, if at all.
[00:13:32] Martín Caballero: They were the first.
[00:13:33] John Craven: Yeah.
[00:13:33] Martín Caballero: Yeah. But they're limited to the Austin area.
[00:13:37] John Craven: There's one in LA, I think that's the, the dessert shop that creates one.
[00:13:40] Martín Caballero: Oh, the B-Suite, I think it's called. There's also Lucky Jack has one in a bottle. I mean, there's a couple that are out there and it was also interesting, you know, on top of all the cold brew that, that I was talking about before, it was interesting seeing the number of places that had the Stumptown draft system. which, you know, the Whole Foods that I was in out in Southern California had that. So just to give you one more way to get cold brew and they were charging, I think I paid, I want to say $6 for a serve yourself some town nitro cold brew, which is pretty astonishing. I had to go for it and try it.
[00:14:13] Jeffrey Klineman: There's black medicine as well. And it's pressure brewed, but it's not cold brewed, but it has nitrogen in it, I believe.
[00:14:19] John Craven: It's pressure brewed in, geez, I don't want to get this wrong, so I probably won't say it, but it's pressure brewed in an environment that contains no oxygen. Actually, I think you're right. It contains, instead of oxygen, it's nitrogen. You know, the nitrogen thing is pretty interesting because that textured kind of beverage is something that we've heard a couple of companies hang their hat on. as the important next innovation when it comes to RTD beverages. Whether or not it's feasible for a lot of these smaller companies to actually produce nitro coffees is really a question that, you know, I don't have the answer to.
[00:14:50] Jeffrey Klineman: It does work with coffee though. I mean, think of it, it's a very creamy type of texture. It works better with coffee than with beer and Guinness is very successful doing it. So if it's cost effective and they can market it
[00:15:01] John Craven: Well, that's the question. Is it cost effective? And you know, is it a matter of buying cans? Is it a matter of, I don't even know how the cans are produced.
[00:15:08] Martín Caballero: It's interesting too. I mean, my own anecdotal experience with nitro cold brew, I've had more than one occasion. I guess I'll say two that I remember. Maybe there was a third, but where I was discussing nitro cold brew with someone and they took nitro to mean that it was like more powerful. And I even made the comparison to, oh, it's similar to a Guinness. And I think that's something that most people who aren't in these industries don't realize that like the texture of Guinness comes from the gas, not from like the beer, the liquid. Right. So I think it's something that seems like it has a somewhat steep learning curve. If nothing else, I think it's something that's great just in terms of building a brand like a Stumptown as a thought leader and an innovator. Right. So they're serving something that right now is different than what's out there. So I think there's, you know, an advantage for that. I'm curious, again, with what Starbucks does with their rollout of Nitro Cold Brew, you know, to really see what the actual, like, market potential is for it, because I don't think anyone really knows. So it's something that's just kind of pushing the category forward, and that's kind of the benefit of it right now.
[00:16:15] John Craven: Definitely the benefit of it and whether or not Starbucks is ultimately successful with the Nitro. I mean, a lot of times you'll see Starbucks produce stuff or roll out new products in their cafes and pull them pretty quickly. So I mean, it depends on what they get for sales in this initial run.
[00:16:29] Martín Caballero: Well, this one has an interesting additional challenge, though, which is needing a different draft system for it. It was interesting having, you know, fielded a bunch of phone calls from different media outlets. There's concern over the cost of it all. And I think that's something that's very different than mixing up a new chai drink that's made with some concentrate that they take out of a refrigerator. You know, I think it's something that anyone who's in this space should for sure hope that it works out because it's going to take product awareness from, you know, really marginal to presumably closer to mainstream. And I think that's something that for this whole movement of super premium, premium, whatever you want to call it, coffee that's being driven by cold brew, I think that's something that's only going to benefit those marketers.
[00:17:09] John Craven: It will benefit the marketers. But, you know, we should admit and we should kind of point out that not everyone knows about cold brew at this point. It's still something that's an emerging sort of nascent category, especially on the RTD side. Before we got on, I talked about how I was on vacation and, you know, met up with some friends and they were like, hey, Ray, what's going on in NONALC? I'm like, oh, cold brew is hot. And they were like, what the heck is cold brew? They had no idea. So, you know, it's still something. And they're pretty knowledgeable, pretty trendy folks, but they're not choppers of that kind of a product at this point. They really just, they know the regular Starbucks, they know Dunkin' Donuts and they know those kinds of products. They don't necessarily know about players like a Stumptown or a Chameleon and High point.
[00:17:47] Jeffrey Klineman: It's interesting, you know, I introduced my parents to cold brew a couple years ago. They had no idea. They were still get excited when they see a random cold brew in the store and they text me. But the reason I think that it's stuck with them is because I was making it at home and I made some for them. And I told them, you can drink this coffee black. You don't need sugar. You don't need milk. it's going to be smooth. And when people have that experience, it changes their mindset a little bit. So having that experience, I think, goes a really long way in that education aspect of cold brew, what it is and why it's good. So, you know, as more brands get out there and more marketing dollars go towards it, I think it is going to be adopted quicker than many other trends that we see in beverage, just because it's a product, coffee, that everyone's very familiar with. And it's done in a different way that people just can't even fathom it until they have it. And then it's like a switch just goes off.
[00:18:41] Martín Caballero: Well, it's also, I think what's really nice about it, and we've talked about this before on these podcasts, but you know, when you have something that is simple and easy to explain, you know, a one ingredient product, I mean, in this case, it's two water and coffee, right? Two things that everybody knows what they are. And I think explaining this innovative process, it's not some space age process, high tech stuff, right?
[00:19:01] Jeffrey Klineman: It's,
[00:19:01] Martín Caballero: It's like literally, yes, you take coffee and put it in water. I mean, that's something that anyone can understand.
[00:19:08] John Craven: Yeah. It's something that anyone can understand, but suppliers can charge a premium for it too. I mean, it's something where, you know, it is just water and coffee, but priced at a premium.
[00:19:16] Martín Caballero: It's totally in, you know, it fits with the whole movement of less processing, right? I think it has that perception and all of those things are sort of a win-win. I think the consumer walks away feeling pretty happy about what they got. Frankly, the options for ready to drink coffee, again, there's kind of one player in that space and it's very much like a sugar, milk, drink first. And this is something where it's like okay to drink packaged coffee again. I mean, that's really what this category as a whole has, if nothing else, achieved so far. I mean, it's sort of paved that way for coffee to be a real thing again in ready-to-drink beverages.
[00:19:50] Jeffrey Klineman: Well, we are seeing also some brands doing more than just cold brew. We're seeing some ready-to-drink bulletproof type products using cold brew. How much of a challenge is it to, it's like another layer of education for them to then talk about the advantages of MCT oil and butter and fats and healthy fats.
[00:20:12] John Craven: Well, that's when the coffee becomes an ingredient versus the actual liquid. And we've seen different brands use cold brew to enhance their other liquids more than be the primary ingredient.
[00:20:24] Martín Caballero: Well, that was sort of the point I was trying to make is that I think these brands have sort of created that. And prior to this, coffee was largely something that came in an extract or a concentrate and anything that was coffee flavored, the quality of the coffee never tasted all that good, right? Whereas now, because of what has happened with cold brew, when you see a product that's enhanced with cold brew, you assume that it's going to have a good quality coffee flavor to it, and generally I think it has. And I think it's also allowed brands that aren't even doing cold brew something, any of these that are sort of super premium using some other technique, whatever it might be, to actually create a credible coffee drink.
[00:21:03] Jeffrey Klineman: I think Happy Tree has done a really fantastic job. It's an interesting play for a maple water. They're a single ingredient product and now they have almost a coffee brand as well, depending on how well that SKU does for them.
[00:21:13] John Craven: It's their maple water, it's a coffee brewed with maple water.
[00:21:16] Jeffrey Klineman: Yeah, exactly. They make the cold brew with the maple water and it's got a very nice balance, but it's a really good example of what you're talking about. Some of these other ones that are coming out now, I don't even know how many of them are really on the market just yet. Suniva, Brooklyn Ametabrew, Blue Northern, you know, these RTD Bulletproof type things. That's like a whole nother level where I just feel like we might not be ready for that kind of product yet, but that's where entrepreneurs are willing to take the plunge, really.
[00:21:44] John Craven: Well, at this point, this is what we like to call bleeding edge versus cutting edge kind of stuff at this point. But really what I'm waiting for is, you know, you touched on this earlier, John Craven, some people think that nitro means stronger. You know, remember from back in the day, there was an American Gladiators character, his name was Nitro. He should start a cold brew coffee brand called Nitro Cold Brew and really confuse people even more as to what this is all about.
[00:22:08] Jeffrey Klineman: I was drawn towards more like the Fast and Furious using the Nitro in the drag race, you know?
[00:22:13] John Craven: The NOS. The NOS, yes.
[00:22:15] Jeffrey Klineman: Fast and Furious Nitro Cold Brew. There you go.
[00:22:18] John Craven: Let's get to the end of the show. We are at the end of the show, so we should definitely talk about what we're drinking right about now. Ironically, I'm going to start. So ironically, I'm actually drinking some coffee out of a can. It is not cold brew though. This is the J Street Coffee Coffee Shot, which is produced by Itoen, North America. It's an unsweetened black coffee. It's pretty tasty. They make it clear that this is intended to be a sort of energy type product. It's got the big circle, which is 150 milligrams of caffeine in this 6.4 ounce can. already starting to feel it, which is cool because I need it. But yeah, it's good stuff. And right next to it, I have some Matcha Love, which is also produced by Ito-N, a small 5.2 ounce can as well, unsweetened as well. There's a little trend going on here. And yeah, it's also good stuff as well. So cheers Ito-N. That's some high quality matcha right there. Yeah, there you Jon Landis, what are you drinking?
[00:23:07] Jeffrey Klineman: I've got this sap maple seltzer. We've got a couple entrepreneurs here out of Vermont. Their family actually is a maple syrup farm. This is very on trend with the maple waters we're seeing on the market, single ingredient product. They draw the maple water out of the tree, but then traditionally you would either boil it down or use reverse osmosis to draw the water off and then have a concentrated syrup product. They use the reverse osmosis for just a very short period of time to make it a little bit sweeter, and then they carbonate it. They have two SKUs right now with the seltzer and the soda, although the seltzer really isn't a seltzer. It's got 50 calories and nine grams of sugar, but it is a very refreshing product. I love the single ingredient plays. They're just kind of testing the waters right now, so to speak. These guys are really sharp. Looking forward to seeing what else they're going to do in the coming years.
[00:23:56] John Craven: Nice. John Craven, you have a trio of beverages in front of you.
[00:23:59] Martín Caballero: Yeah, I haven't been in the office for a while, so I grabbed a couple of things out of the fridge. I had that Starbucks cold brew, grabbed the Honest Sport since I just recently listened to the Seth Goldman episode of our podcast here.
[00:24:13] John Craven: It was an episode, all right.
[00:24:14] Martín Caballero: That sizzling noise was a little weird. I was kind of wondering if you were putting Landis' face on that griddle or something. And then I'm trying this Erva Yerba Mate, which, you know, I feel like I haven't seen a new mate drink in a little while.
[00:24:30] John Craven: Or the Purity Organic folks came out with the Yerba Mate product.
[00:24:33] Martín Caballero: Yeah, but that's like a line extension. I guess I mean like a company that's just selling mate. This one's a basil ginger flavor. It's, that's pretty good. Probably wasn't the best thing to chase the cold brew with, but. Pretty strong, right?
[00:24:45] Jeffrey Klineman: It's got a.
[00:24:46] Martín Caballero: Pretty, pretty strong. 160 milligrams. 160 milligrams of caffeine. Pretty clean, so.
[00:24:50] John Craven: You'll be awake long enough to drive all the way to North Carolina like you're going to do tomorrow, right? There you go. Something like that. All right. Good stuff as always. Thanks so much for listening, folks. Once again, we have an email address for any questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts. It is podcast at BevNET.com. Please send us emails. We need more.
[00:25:10] Martín Caballero: Ray is anxiously refreshing for an email.
[00:25:12] John Craven: Anxiously. That's how I spend half my day. No joke. Joke. Joke. Actually, a big joke. All right. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you soon. Adios, amigos.
