[00:00:03] Ray Latif: Hello and welcome to another edition of the BevNET podcast. I'm Ray Latif, the managing editor of BevNET. I'm here once again with John Craven and Jon Landis, John Craven being the CEO and founder, Jon Landis being, what exactly do you do here?
[00:00:15] Jon Landis: What's your job? My title that I created for myself is brand specialist.
[00:00:19] Ray Latif: Ooh, that's a good one. I wish I had that.
[00:00:21] John Craven: I think he even hired himself too, but not sure what he's doing here.
[00:00:23] Ray Latif: How did he actually arrive at BevNET headquarters? I don't know. Don't know, but he's here.
[00:00:27] John Craven: You were in New Jersey. On a freight train.
[00:00:28] Ray Latif: Freight train. OK, cool. Well, today we're going to be talking about what's in our cooler. And it's interesting because, you know, our cooler is filled with a lot of different beverages at any given time of the week. And we're trying to figure out why certain beverages are consumed quicker than others. I guess we kind of know why certain beverages are consumed faster than others, but let's try to delineate exactly. what's going on here. Is it packaging? Is it formulation? Is it trends that appeal to our employees? And I guess not our employees, your employees, John Craven. But anyway.
[00:01:04] John Craven: Thanks for clarifying that. Yes.
[00:01:05] Ray Latif: But in any case, from my perspective, it all starts with, what does it look like? What does the package look like? What does that label look like? And if it's an ugly label, not that saying that we get anything that's an ugly label, but if it's an ugly label, it's not an attractive label, I'm less inclined to pick it up.
[00:01:23] John Craven: Yeah, no, I think it's totally true. I mean, if you look at the stuff that, you know, usually we stock our cooler with, you know, stuff goes in the top and the middle and the bottom is kind of where stuff like graduates to when people don't want to drink it, which, you know, is not to bash on anyone's products, but I think it's a pretty interesting, you know, test when you eliminate people having to pay money for it. And in our office, that includes, you know, people who work here, the UPS guy, you know, stuff like that. And, you know, I think when someone doesn't want to take the time to pick up a product and look at it when it's completely free, you know, no risk, right? You don't like it, you can dump it out. I think that is something, you know, that has to do with the packaging and the messaging and all those other things. I think, you know, a big thing that a lot of brands forget is like appealing to your senses, right? I mean, this is still a food and beverage, like refreshment is always a function of every food and beverage product, like whether a company's admitted or not. And I don't know, I think for whatever reason, some products, they don't stand out that way.
[00:02:26] Ray Latif: Yeah, I mean, we have a little bit more time and our job is to, you know, write about these beverages and to examine these beverages. So we're gonna, you know, pick up a bottle or a package and look at it longer than the average amount of time that it takes a consumer to look at a beverage and decide whether or not they want to buy it, which I think is about three seconds is what everyone says. The amount of time we probably pick up a beverage and look at it and turn it around and stuff like that is probably closer to, I don't know, 10 maybe, something like that.
[00:02:53] John Craven: No, that's true. in our office and, you know, whatever, a cooler anywhere that's like this, it's, it's different. I mean, you know, there are a lot of brands that come in and they get, you know, let's say we have a couple of cases of them. People will pick up the first one. It's really, are they coming back? And again, to the point of it being, you know, free, it is almost like the test in our office is sort of showing like, is it something you want to consume again?
[00:03:15] Ray Latif: Right.
[00:03:15] John Craven: Not even purchase, just literally, do you want to pick it up and like put that in your mouth again?
[00:03:19] Ray Latif: Do we say that on the podcast?
[00:03:21] John Craven: Well, we just did.
[00:03:22] Ray Latif: We just did. Well done. Okay. Landis, you know, what are your thoughts on like, I mean, you drink a lot of beverages in the office.
[00:03:29] Jon Landis: Yeah, I think it's important first to note, you know, obviously I think talking about in the office setting is really important because we're pretty relatively small sample size, right? Of course. So, you know, Some of the stuff that I see going fast is usually the premium type of products. Again, to your point. A cold pressed juice or something? A cold pressed juice, absolutely. Some of the kombuchas. Some of the ones that you would see in the store, not at like the $1.99 or below. Again, to your point that we're receiving these beverages for free. Some of the other ones that tend to Sit in there, you know, I've made my feelings clear on Stevia. I see that in our fridge, too. You know, I think that lower calorie, though, while Stevia is polarizing, does tend to be something that's very attractive to people in an office setting, so.
[00:04:21] Ray Latif: I think the other thing, I mean, like, it's the naturally formulated stuff. Yeah, I mean, like, I think our office and our folks, you know, skew toward natural formulations. It is what it is. But, you know, it's the stuff that was popular maybe 10 years ago with, you know, added vitamins, added electrolytes, added nutrition. I mean, you know, that stuff for me personally is less attractive than, hey, you didn't add something. This was already there in the product. And again, that's, you know, as you mentioned, the cold-pressed juices, you know, ingredients like a chia, you know, was a big thing for me because I already know that there's nothing added. You know, chia is chia. It has the omegas. It has the calcium. It has the protein. It has the fiber. So there was nothing added it was already there.
[00:05:00] Jon Landis: Yeah one other thing I mean worse We should mention that we do have a pile of beverages that we pulled out of the fridge sitting in front of us There's one of like 20 different. Oh jeez There's like one of 20 different types of beverages Sorry, I knocked a whole bunch over. So I wanted to pick one out right here really quick, because I think it really speaks a little bit to what you said earlier, is the design aspect. When you pick it up, do you know actually what it is? What does it tell you? So we have this Mediterranean tea here. It's a small brand out of Connecticut or New Jersey here.
[00:05:33] Ray Latif: It's a big difference between the two states, Leo.
[00:05:35] Jon Landis: OK. I mean, I can look for it. They're here in the Northwest, in Connecticut, Stanford. Nice. I think why I wanted to single this one out is we've had so many tea products. We know what tea is. You know, this product, looking at it, to me, it doesn't seem like it's going to be anything different than any other sweetened tea that I've had before. So, I mean, I try everything that comes in here, but, you know, that to me is the design wasn't very compelling. in a way to say, you know, this is a new type of tea experience.
[00:06:04] Ray Latif: I mean, there's something about the bottle shape it too. I mean, it's a shape we've seen a lot of times before. And if you're going to pick that up and look at it, you're going to say, OK, what really makes this different from anything else I've ever had? What's going to make me pay? whatever it is or whatever it costs. And if it's not compelling, if it's not immediate in terms of like what stands out and why you're drinking this, then, you know, what's the difference between that and any other tea on the market?
[00:06:26] John Craven: I think that's something that, you know, when it seems like when a lot of products are developed, there's often kind of this like design and development in a vacuum a little bit. you know, like they're probably in their own office looking at their product and sort of staring at it and so on and so forth. And a product like this, and there's, you know, really nothing wrong with it. I mean, honestly, I personally like the liquid of it a lot. It is different. And, you know, I think it's something that when you look at certain products in a cooler, like, I think it was a point you were making before, like you see a 16 ounce, you know, glass bottle, it's the same one, like Honest Tea and stuff like that's in, like, you know, that's tea, right? So, you know, if you were in a place where that were the only option, you'd buy that and you'd say, geez, well, that was, that was tasty. Now, if you're in, you know, I don't know, a Whole Foods or someplace that has a big set of, you know, 20 different bottles that look like that, are you going to pick that one out over something else? I don't know. I mean, that's a good question, right?
[00:07:21] Ray Latif: Well, the answer is you have to compel the consumer to pick it up in the first place. And there's something that has to stand out on your label that says, pick me up and look at me and maybe consider buying me. And that's always, I mean, that's the million dollar question, you know, how do you get customers to do that? I mean, I think good examples on the table right now, I mean, you know, if you look at a big brand name, I mean, if the brand name stands out, you know, I mean, I feel like that's something that a lot of companies don't do on the first iteration. They don't make it clear that this is the brand name, and this is what I'm drinking, and this is maybe even saying the ingredients right up front. I mean, Blueprint was probably one of the first companies to really come out with that ingredient list on the front. So they didn't necessarily need to promote their brand as much. They were saying, this is who we are. This is what our brand is about. Listen, clean ingredient list. But there's not a lot of companies that do that. I mean, so if you're not leading with the ingredients, if you're not leading with the flavor name, and frankly, you really shouldn't be leading with the flavor name, that brand name of yours really has to stand out. Again, it's something that a lot of brands forget to do right off the bat.
[00:08:26] John Craven: Well, it's the brand name. It is, you know, the flavor, if it's not obvious, again, like something that comes in, you know, a clear glass bottle that always means iced tea. You know, you have a little more leeway than some of the bottles here are like, you know, PET bottles that are fully wrapped that could almost be anything, right? And I think, you know, it's an interesting dilemma for packaging. It's like, you know, kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. On the one hand, like, you know, we could take this product, which is in, you know, again, this tea product, it's in a product that, or a bottle that clearly says tea, and one might knock it because it's not differentiated enough. On the other hand, if you go into some really, you know, unique custom bottle, then you have the opposite problem, which is like, well, what the heck is this? And, You know, it's almost like you're too unique now. So I think, you know, for brands that have done this stuff successfully, it is kind of like an evolution. You know, when you're starting out, you have no brand equity, right? Like no one knows what it is. And, you know, as you develop your brand, if you're lucky enough, like you have a lot of leeway. I mean, I think at this point, if, you know, take an Honest Tea to use that example again, like they go into a totally custom, you know, crazy looking glass bottle. If it said Honest Tea on it, like, you know what it is, right? It doesn't matter at this point.
[00:09:37] Ray Latif: Right.
[00:09:37] John Craven: So I think, you know, some of that is just, I think companies that are designing as if their brand, you know, they're looking at their brand four years down the road or whatever. And they're designing that today when in reality, like the challenge of the startup is completely different. They need to approach it differently.
[00:09:52] Jon Landis: Can I single out another brand again?
[00:09:54] John Craven: Knock yourself.
[00:09:54] Jon Landis: Okay. So, uh, we, we, a lot of the things that we were just talking about, I think are relevant to this, uh, Victoria's secret almond water Victoria's kitchen almond water. Um, first, first of all, you know, the Victoria's kitchen, Is not very prominent leading to those inevitable freudian slips Um, but they do kind of own this, uh, like almond water type of imagery, which is really good, too There's I don't really know of any other almond water brands. Um that are out there but also speaking to packaging because As we all know, they used to be in this 16-ounce glass Snapple bottle. And for a long time, we had a lot of them in our fridge that were kind of sitting there in that bottle. But we do have this can now. And I find it more pleasant to drink this product from the can. And I see it moving in the fridge more so in the can and other people in the office drinking it than in its previous iteration. So I think it's a pretty interesting one to single out in the conversation that we're having right now.
[00:10:58] Ray Latif: Yeah, I mean, for sure. There's a lot of people I see coming from outside the office who pick that up and say, what's almond water? What is this? And I think there's definitely something to be said about that. But, you know, again, the branding is something where, you know, anyone could come up with another almond water if they wanted to. I mean, you know, a bigger brand could come out with one. And if you don't own it, if you don't, if you just own the word the phrase almond water and how powerful is that really? It really is brand name dependent. I guess from my perspective anyway.
[00:11:27] John Craven: Yeah, I think Jon Landis' point, I mean, if you look at the old product versus this one, part of it is that the old bottle I think said juice. It had this kind of murky colored liquid in it, whereas the can, you can't see it. It says almond water. It's kind of a little more like Believable like it's not messing with your senses Even though it's the same liquid just in a different format, right? I mean, it's actually a smaller package size than the old one too, which is also interesting where you know It's a reduction in it. It seems like more almost too.
[00:12:01] Ray Latif: So right. Oh Right. The other thing I wanted to bring up is, you know, the ease at which you understand the product. And I kind of alluded to this earlier. You know, if you pick up a product and you look at it and you say, okay, this is chuga chai. It has chaga, reishi, chai spices, licorice root, wildflower honey. even for us veterans of the beverage industry, it's something where we hesitate. You know, I think that that's something where perhaps it's better just to say what they say at the top, which is super urban fusion and kind of turn around the back for all the other ingredients. It almost is, I don't know, a little scary. But again, this isn't for the everyday consumer, this product. This is for a very specific kind of consumer.
[00:12:41] John Craven: I think it's something that, you know, if you're doing something really innovative like that, there has to be, you know, if there's stuff that's exotic about your product, there always has to be something that's familiar. You know, I feel like products that do that, even little things like having, I don't know, lemon flavoring or something that again, like just gives you some point of reference for like, what is this going to taste like? You know, I think that's something that is a challenge. for a lot of products that you put on a lot of kind of like current, you know, trendy ingredients. And even people like us, like when I first tried that product again, like I really didn't know what I was getting into. I think, I don't know which flavor that is, but.
[00:13:17] Ray Latif: And this is Jubilee herbal roots, which was, I was referring to the chaga chai.
[00:13:22] John Craven: Yeah. So I was going to say, you know, oddly enough, like the chai flavor of, you know, the ones like I, at least, you know, I know what chai tastes like. So all those other things like, you know, you can kind of accept some reishi mushroom and so on, but at least I know there's going to be chai flavor in there. Like that helps like your senses, right? It does.
[00:13:39] Ray Latif: But you know, the name of the game in beverages is scale, right? I mean, so if you really do want to scale, You've got to appeal to that mainstream consumer. You've got to appeal to that consumer. And you know, you were talking about that, which is like, you've got to have that point of reference.
[00:13:52] John Craven: Well, sure. But that's, you know, kind of, again, like, you know, that's almost an argument of like, well, you should just make, you know, Snapple iced tea, right? Because that's like the most mainstream, widely understood thing today. But obviously, those of us in the room know that that's not really a path to success either. I think it is like being somewhere in the middle. Of course, you don't want to be Snapple Iced Tea and you don't want to be the most bizarro bottle of tea out there. That's not at all marketable. So I think some of it is just figuring out what gives you at least some glimmer of hope in the short term that's actually going to help you establish a market and a brand, but lets you create something that has an area that you can own and that can scale. You know, there are definitely lots of products out there that we drink right now that have gone through that. I mean, I think, you know, we've got a kombucha on the table here. I mean, that's a great example. I mean, that was like something that was so out there and bizarre. And at this point, like, you know, I don't think anyone, you know, in the industry would really, you know, bat an eye at that, right? I mean, it seems so normal.
[00:14:52] Jon Landis: No, but I feel like this is more something that someone would read, like a blog post about reishi mushrooms and their health effects, and then maybe see it on the store shelf and be like, oh, I just read about how cool those are, and then maybe they'll try it.
[00:15:07] John Craven: But you're sort of making my point, though. I mean, that's like the bleeding edge person who's actually reading blogs about reishi mushrooms, right? Exactly. That person is out there. And I suppose at this point, they're probably an influencer in the realm of like a Whole Foods, right?
[00:15:21] Jon Landis: Yes.
[00:15:22] John Craven: But, you know, that's not somebody that right now is going to drive.
[00:15:25] Jon Landis: Yeah, I guess I was making more a point to your scale. You know, you're the big X factor being, you know, how are you going to scale? But One of the things that, you know, we touched upon a little bit, but I think also is like the X factor for making a beverage successful is it's got to taste good, no matter what it is, no matter what bottle it's in, no matter what the label looks like, it's got to taste good. And another one I want to single out on this table is this Evolve from Cytosport. They're the makers of Muscle Milk, and this is their organic version, I guess. It's a new brand that they launched at Expo West.
[00:15:58] Ray Latif: Yeah. I mean, they've had it out. This is a new package, a new formulation for the company ever since they sold to Hormel or since Hormel Foods bought the company, they revamped that line.
[00:16:09] Jon Landis: Yeah. And I wanted to say, because we get protein drinks in here and we'll get cases of them. And if they don't taste good, they will sit there. This one has been moving. I know a number of people in the office who really like it. They drink it for breakfast. It's almost gone, honestly. We got, I think, two cases of it. And it's really just because it really does taste very good. It's, you know.
[00:16:30] Ray Latif: Well, it's interesting you say that, because I was actually just literally a half an hour ago on the phone with the folks from Muscle Milk, and they were talking about how innovation is such an important part of what they do right now. I guess everyone's going to say that. But anyway.
[00:16:42] John Craven: Bad if you didn't, right? Yeah, right.
[00:16:44] Ray Latif: But they did very much call out, you know, we're trying to make our products taste better than they ever have. You know, muscle milk was lauded back in the day for making protein beverages taste good. I mean, it wasn't something that was very easy. It's a little bit easier now, but now they're trying to really capture a lot of different day part uses and a lot of different consumers that they hadn't had before.
[00:17:04] John Craven: I think this is a product that is trying to appeal to someone who is, you know, actively consuming muscle milk or whatever other protein drinks are out there. And here's a plant-based, you know, vegan version of it. And, you know, that's someone that I think, you know, looking at this, that is definitely more of like a technical looking product. It's not a like, I don't know, there's the Chia Star product on here, which to me looks much more like, hey, this is a smoothie and it also has protein, you know, like that sort of difference. Whereas this is like protein is like its reason for being. And that's, again, just like a different type of consumer.
[00:17:39] Ray Latif: So much more functional than it is refreshing.
[00:17:41] John Craven: Right. I mean, it's just, I mean, it literally like, you know, Landis said, it's something that, you know, maybe you pick up for replacing your breakfast or a workout or something like that. Whereas I think, you know, the cooler that the chia star is going to end up in, that person didn't walk over there saying, geez, I need, you know, I need protein. They're probably going over there looking for like healthy, good quality, tasty options. So, I mean, protein drinks are, you know, they're kind of like energy drinks to an extent. It's almost like, they've had this history where, you know, it kind of goes counter to what we were just saying. It's like almost, if it tastes too good, then it's not like efficacious, right? So at least that's the perception.
[00:18:20] Jon Landis: You're drinking it because you need the effects of it, not because you really want to enjoy it.
[00:18:24] John Craven: No, but it's sort of like, you know, if someone gave you, I don't know, like it's the whole like Listerine thing, right? The alcohol in it's not the functional ingredient, but you know, without the burn, consumers don't feel as though like it works. You know, that's like an old, you know, study in the burn.
[00:18:40] Ray Latif: No way.
[00:18:41] John Craven: Yeah, there you go. And then, uh, you know, in energy drinks, I mean, we've seen so many that are like best tasting or, you know, no aftertaste, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, Red Bull monster, the ones that taste like classic energy drink, like they still win, right?
[00:18:55] Ray Latif: They do. Although I think it's, you know, it's becoming clear to consumers that there are better options. There are better tasting options for any of that stuff anymore. For sure. All right, well, that ends our podcast for today. Thanks so much for listening. Once again, if you have any questions, comments, or just generally hate us and want us to stop doing this, please let us know. Send us an email at news at BevNET.com and we'll read it and hopefully we won't cry. Thanks again for listening.
