[00:00:03] Ray Latif: Hey, this is the BevNET podcast and I am Ray Latif. I'm here with John Craven and Jon Landis. We're at BevNET HQ here in Watertown, Massachusetts. This is episode 50 of the BevNET podcast. We made it this far. What do you guys think about making it to episode 50? Did you think we'd make it? I gave us like three episodes. Three episodes, that's where I was at. I was the over-under, I think.
[00:00:23] John Craven: I need a nap.
[00:00:26] Ray Latif: All right, honest answer there. Honest answer. Well, this is the March 24th edition of the BevNET podcast, and this is a big day, I think. It's taken us a long time to kind of, I think, get our groove, honestly. And I feel like all the feedback that we continue getting just proves to me, or at least makes me happier every day, that we're on the right track. We're doing something good here. It only works if people listen to it. And I really appreciate, I say this all the time, but I really, really do appreciate everyone listening and giving us great feedback on this. And we hope to continue to produce a lot more going forward.
[00:01:01] Jon Landis: And we're always looking for ways to make it bigger and better. Exactly. Hopefully, we'll look back at episode 50 at some point and think it sucks or something. Yeah.
[00:01:10] Ray Latif: I mean, looking back, I mean, I think we could have done this a different way. We're in John Craven's office right now, just, you know, sitting on his couch, and Glennis and I are sitting on the couch, and John is sitting at his lovely desk. So lovely. I think we could have done this, like, from the Goodyear blimp or something like that. Something big. Like, I'm on top of a mountain. Fireworks. You know? Explosions.
[00:01:26] John Craven: It is my 31st birthday. Happy birthday. March 24th. Well done. I'm still waiting for some bottles of Tullamore Dew from our dear friends, listeners. I haven't arrived yet.
[00:01:36] Jon Landis: Somehow, I think you're going to keep waiting. Keep waiting. Keep dreaming. Bevanit Podcast, sponsored by Tullamore Dew. Inlandis' dreams.
[00:01:44] Ray Latif: Inlandis' dreams. It's a good thing you added that addendum. So this is a really great episode. I really enjoyed listening to all the interviews, which included two that I recorded in New York and then one that we recorded here. The two in New York, one was with Zak Normandin, the founder of Little Duck Organics and Dirty Lemon Beverages. Thomas Perez is CEO of Alpha Dominche, manufacturer of very high-end coffee and tea brewing equipment. And then Jon Landis, you sat down with our new CMO, Mike Schneider.
[00:02:13] John Craven: Schneider Mike.
[00:02:14] Ray Latif: Yeah, Schneider Mike on Twitter, if anyone wants to follow him on Twitter. BevNET Mike? One of those. I don't know. He's BevNET Mike on Instagram.
[00:02:21] Jon Landis: Oh, Instagram. Yeah. He's still getting his social stuff figured out.
[00:02:26] Ray Latif: That's our CMO for you. Total jab there at him. Totally joking. Yeah. But yeah, let's start off with Zach. I don't know how many of you folks out there know Zach. I think if you saw him, you'd probably recognize him. He's a very recognizable guy. He's about 6'1". He's got a very distinct hairstyle. Sideshow Bob-esque.
[00:02:45] John Craven: What's that? Sideshow Bob. Simpsons.
[00:02:47] Ray Latif: He's going to come here and kick your butt for saying that, I'm sure. But you might have seen him in a lot of trade shows when he was at Little Duck Organics, a company that he founded, Organic Kids Foods. He founded that a few years ago and has since sold the company. Really successful. At the time that he founded the company, there weren't many options for Organic Kids Foods, and he really took advantage of the white space in that category.
[00:03:10] Jon Landis: Yeah. And I think, you know, just with what they're doing with Dirty Lemon, it's really, I don't know, against the grain, I guess. And most food and beverage businesses are built on wide availability, really easy, almost like you should stumble upon the product in any store. And here, it's a product that you've probably never seen in a store and you kind of have to be in the know to get it, right? So it's something really different. And
[00:03:37] Ray Latif: really interesting. It is. And what's extremely impressive to talk to Zach about is his philosophy on what they're selling. And a lot of that is tied to the distribution strategy. They're selling direct to consumer via a social media slash mobile phone model that is pretty unique to the industry. And you'll hear a lot about that in the conversation that I have with him.
[00:04:04] Jon Landis: Yeah, definitely won't spoil that.
[00:04:06] John Craven: Yes. You know, I find the Dirty Lemon, it's more interesting because it's so niche and so exclusive and club like, you know, it's like, it's an expensive product. You have to be able to be in their system to get it through like Instagram DMS or something like that. It's like serving this really like progressive type of a need that I didn't even know existed, which I think is interesting.
[00:04:31] Jon Landis: Yeah, and I think, you know, they've got this sort of nice balance of, you know, having this really sort of chic packaging, the kind of allure of like, you know, how do you get it? Where do you get it? But the actual liquid tastes pretty damn good, too. So I think it's... I'd be really curious to see how that all unfolds as they scale. I mean, it seems like something that... They've obviously proven that it's successful to sell the way they are via text messages, but how far can that scale? Do they have to go to traditional methods?
[00:05:00] John Craven: Yeah, are there other channels that they can explore?
[00:05:03] Ray Latif: Don't want to totally spoil Ray's interview here. Well, without further ado, Zak Normandin. All right, we're here with Zak Normandin, the co-founder and CEO of Dirty Lemon Beverages. Zach, how are you? Good. Great. How are you? Good, good. It's six o'clock in Manhattan in Soho at the offices of Dirty Lemon Beverages. Brand new office. Very cool. Very cool. The recorder is on top of a stack of boxes that you used to ship the products out. That's right. And this goes to show what an awesome startup you are, because we're using this for a table right now. I kind of put this together, but that's kind of where we're at.
[00:05:38] Zak Normandin: It's working well, too. We have three boxes and many in back of us.
[00:05:42] Ray Latif: Yeah. So Dirty Lemon, a functional beverage brand. You guys market a few different products. Your lead product was a detox product that you launched two years ago. You got a couple of new SKUs, including a sleep and an immunity SKU. Is that what it is?
[00:05:55] Zak Normandin: Yeah, we launched Dirty Lemon in the end of 2015. really with the intention of disrupting beverage distribution. So that was our big kind of vision was, you know, can we sell beverages direct to consumer? And I think before we went into this, in looking at comps from the past, I think the brand that had the most success with that was Blueprint. in building a direct consumer business, you know, selling cleanses to consumers. So we took a page from that and said, you know, can we do this with a much broader offering? And yeah, we started with one SKU, which was our detox kind of taking, you know, a page from the whole cleanse movement and then the activated charcoal craze that was happening a couple of years ago and launched our detox product. And yeah, and now we have, so we have three products that are currently available, The detox, we have a skin and hair like beauty beverage and a sleep drink that we just launched about, I guess it's been about a month now, a month and a half. And then we have three more that'll be forthcoming and launched in the coming weeks. Yeah, and the much bigger, broader vision is to really continue to disrupt beverage distribution. So instead of relying on traditional distribution to sell Natural Products, you know, we own the customer experience. from the moment that consumers find out about the products all the way through to when they receive them, which is starkly different than the brands that are relying on Whole Foods and Target and the more traditional retailers.
[00:07:17] Ray Latif: And I definitely want to get into the logistics of how you do that, how you sell direct to consumer, but let's back up for a second and talk about... your background as an entrepreneur. Prior to launching Dirty Lemon, you had been the founder of Little Duck Organics, which is a company that sells organic baby food products and snacks. Very successful brand. You see it everywhere. I know there are some in my cabinet right now. Take us through the idea of starting your own company, why you started it, and how you thought you could be successful doing it, because that's kind of half our readers are in the same boat that you were in back in the day.
[00:07:54] Zak Normandin: So with Little Duck, my background before that point, I was in the Coast Guard for four years, got out of the Coast Guard and was doing some design engineering work. And to make a little bit of money on the side, I ended up picking up a food client, a woman that wanted to take four cookies and turn her cookie box into a box that had six cookies in it. I picked up this project for her. And I got to laugh for a second.
[00:08:17] Ray Latif: It sounds it sounds easier than is it a difficult job to do that?
[00:08:21] Zak Normandin: Well, I mean, I was doing the same with sheet metal, basically, with aluminum. So in the job that I took after I got out of the Coast Guard, I was designing parts for test equipment that was used to test altitude and airspeed for airplanes. So we were making box assemblies and stuff. So I had this understanding of how to draw something on paper and then work with the right people to make it into a real item. which was really exciting to me. So going back even further than that, my grandfather was an architect and I always wanted to be an architect as a kid because it was always just really fascinating to me the process of taking an idea and making it into a real thing. So I did a little bit of that when I was working with this avionics company and then saw this world of food when I picked up this project for the cookie company. And it was just fascinating to me, the process of drawing something on paper and not making it one time, but making it potentially a million times. So that was really kind of the catalyst for Little Duck. I have three children now, but I had two daughters at the time. And I was shopping in the kids' food aisle quite often at Whole Foods, and I saw an opportunity there to launch an organic kids' snack line. So we started with a line of freeze-dried fruit, and the brand has expanded well beyond that at this point. But yeah, it was a really just like incredible moment in time where there was not a lot of food entrepreneurs. You know, I remember like going to the tech community and looking at people that were building websites and stuff as my kind of network of people, because there was just no one building food companies back in 2008. I mean, there were, but it was like so much more segmented. It's not the way that it is now where there's, you know, there's hundreds and hundreds of food startups.
[00:10:01] Ray Latif: Categories and subcategories, sub subcategories all over the place.
[00:10:05] Zak Normandin: That's the story of how I got into food and I kind of fell in love with it. I mean, I built Little Duck and I've always been very focused on package design and on the consumer experience and, you know, how people really connect emotionally with brands. And I think grocery is a really interesting place for that. I remember going into the store with my dad when I was a kid and we would always walk out of the store with like the weirdest products. And I think that that rubbed off on me. Like I was always really impacted by design in a very tangible way. And yeah, that was that.
[00:10:34] Ray Latif: So you saw an opportunity to disrupt. You saw a shelf that seemed to be needing organic snacks or just organic in general. I mean, it's funny to think about a time when we grew up and there were no organic produce. It was Gerber and it was all the processed stuff that we ate and we grew up with. And now there's an opportunity to never have that again if you don't want to. When it comes to Dirty Lemon though, where did you see the disruptive opportunity in the liquid itself? And then we can talk about where you saw that opportunity to sort of change the way beverages are distributed. Because what's inside these bottles has been done before, but where did you see an opportunity to kind of give a detox consumer something else to drink?
[00:11:16] Zak Normandin: Yeah. I mean, what I was seeing after I sold Little Duck, I was traveling a lot and I was seeing, you know, I started spending time on the coasts and I was already living in New York, but started traveling more frequently to LA or San Francisco. And, you know, when you start to move around these like trendsetter markets, you start to see like innovation in a way that you don't see in grocery stores. And I always saw that in New York because New York is like a special community. But I think on the West Coast, especially in LA, there's such a movement around food innovation and trends, and this is where natural food has its roots. And yeah, I think our innovation is not in necessarily coming up with the newest ideas. I don't want to be the next acai, whatever, or turmeric something, or kombucha, or whatever. I think what we're doing is we're bringing access to these products to consumers faster than they've ever had access to them before. So instead of waiting for a year for someone, for a consumer in Ohio to be able to get their hands on some trendy new drink, because it takes that long naturally for distribution to catch up and for stores in their local area to be able to carry that product, we can bring it to them immediately within two days. And that's an innovation, speaking to your next question about distribution, that no beverage brand has ever had the ability to do. Because the roots of a lot of beverage brands lie in traditional distribution.
[00:12:40] Ray Latif: Yeah, and you have proof of concept with this distribution model. You've been able to do this for a couple of years and you've got a pretty good cash flow going at this point. And we should probably talk about exactly how it is that you sell these products. Sure. And let's do that right now. I mean, you launched with Instagram. I mean, that's as disruptive as it gets. You know, you basically sell and you target and find a lot of your new clients through Instagram. For those listeners who are not familiar with how consumers order your products, I'll butcher it. You probably have a much better way of saying it.
[00:13:11] Zak Normandin: I'd like to hear the bitch though.
[00:13:13] Ray Latif: From everything we've read and everything we've reported, basically consumers can send you a direct message?
[00:13:19] Zak Normandin: So the only way to purchase the product is through text message. Through text message, okay. We did launch the brand on Instagram. That was our primary vehicle to market the brand to new consumers at very early on. I mean, it's still a very big driver for us now. But yeah, we were just trying to connect like where are people looking in the whole world of social media? Where are they looking to for trends and inspiration? you know, where the influencers are spending the majority of their time. And that's, you know, for us at the time, and it still is, it's such a powerful platform. That was Instagram. So we launched on Instagram and then, you know, we've, we've continued to develop that platform, but it's more about just like expanding beyond the confines of brick and mortar, and looking at where are people spending their time, not only in physical cities, but where are they spending their time online?
[00:14:05] Ray Latif: So if someone wants your product, they send you a text message, they say, hey, I want to buy your product, you reply to that text and say, okay, this is what we need you to do.
[00:14:13] Zak Normandin: Yeah, so we built out a platform, so we have our own proprietary technology that we developed in-house, which the process goes, I mean, you provide your billing and your shipping and your credit card information, and then once that's saved in the system, then you at that point can then place orders for the product any time via SMS, just with a couple text messages, or ask any questions about the brand. We have a naturopath on staff. We have customer service that's available pretty much 24-7. So if you are holding a bottle of Dirty Lemon and you say, Is there going to be interference with medication that I'm taking? You can text and you're going to get an answer really quickly. And that's a level of customer service and customer experience that no other beverage brand can touch. And the whole business is built around that idea.
[00:15:02] Ray Latif: So getting back to the point of, you know, the liquid itself, what made this liquid the right initial vehicle to test out your distribution model?
[00:15:13] Zak Normandin: It was just something that we saw was trending in the market, but it really has nothing to do with the liquid. At the end of the day, when you strip back the labels on most of the products out there, it's the same stuff and it's made in the same places all around the country. What we're doing is building a distribution network that could sell any beverage product. whether it's a sparkling beverage, a coffee, a detox beverage or whatever. We started with function because there's a really easy way to market that online. But the bigger vision is to go much broader than that.
[00:15:40] Ray Latif: Have you talked to other brands at this point about plugging their products into your system?
[00:15:44] Zak Normandin: No, we want to own every brand that's under the platform.
[00:15:47] Ray Latif: What are you looking at now in terms of other opportunities?
[00:15:49] Zak Normandin: We have a couple of new products coming out. We're doing an energy drink, which is really exciting. So none of Natural Products have sugar in them. We're focused on looking at the areas that could use the most improvement in the beverage category. And I think that sugar is a huge issue in beverage. So, there's a lot of over-sweetened products. And yeah, you look at Coke and Pepsi. I mean, they're losing a lot of market share in carbonated because these are over-sweetened products, or they've predominantly sold over-sweetened products for a very long time. So, none of Natural Products have any sugar, no added sweeteners or anything. There's one gram of sugar in most of Natural Products, which just comes naturally from the lemon juice. And then like even a couple of Natural Products don't have any sugar in them just because the lemon juice content is low enough where it doesn't reflect on the ingredient panel.
[00:16:33] Ray Latif: All right, we're going to have a live taste test here. I'm going to open this up and give it a go. That's actually really tasty. Good stuff. And I feel like I'm going to get through the morning really well here in New York City. You never know how it's going to turn out. With my Dirty Lemon, I'll be fine, I'm sure. That's right, yeah. So a pretty innovative business model, distribution model. Convincing investors as to see your passion, to see your vision, is pretty interesting. And going back to Little Duck, convinced some pretty high-profile investors to get behind you. You have Tom Furst, the founder of Nantucket Nectar, is now a pretty well-known investor in the beverage space.
[00:17:15] Zak Normandin: Absolutely, yeah, wonderful guy.
[00:17:17] Ray Latif: Chris Birch, eventually, he's a billionaire in the fashion world. Of course. How did you get those folks to see your vision for Little Duck?
[00:17:26] Zak Normandin: I think with Little Duck, we existed at a really magical moment in time. I was kind of speaking to this before. There was no one really doing anything. I remember we did this, and I'm sure people who are listening may remember this, but I just remember probably my favorite memories with Little Duck, but this was at Expo West one year. We built two working skeeball machines, like huge skeeball machines, and we put them inside of our booth. There was no room to even be inside of the booth. We basically had this working arcade that people had to walk up to and basically roll literal skeeballs up. And then for prizes, we would give them the product.
[00:18:04] Ray Latif: You know what? I remember that someone gave me a token. Yeah.
[00:18:08] Zak Normandin: Yeah. And I remember getting like, I could be totally off on this, but I think that they changed the rule after that where you actually had to be, everyone had to be standing inside of their booth, but we caused such disruption, like in the hall, in the aisle. that all the business to the side of us were not happy at all. And so anyways, we were doing stuff like that regularly at shows or with marketing or whatever. And it just was like, there was magic around the company. Anyone who worked for the company at that time would agree. And unfortunately, or not unfortunately, the brand still exists, which is much better than anyone can say. That's what drove a lot of awareness and a lot of excitement, which naturally causes investors to be willing to take a chance on something.
[00:18:54] Ray Latif: You get enough eyeballs on there, someone's going to really be the one to help your brand go forward. As far as Dirty Lemon, launching, you've got to have some funding, you've got to have some capital to get started.
[00:19:09] Zak Normandin: We bootstrapped in the beginning, and then we raised a little bit of money last year. This has been largely, I mean, I've never done anything with a boatload of money. We've always kind of never had a ton of capital to be able to execute. We're just starting now to be able to actually have resources to be able to execute on a much larger scale. Admittedly, probably larger, or for sure larger than I've ever built a company to. But yeah, we have absolutely amazing people involved with the company. Truly like a dream come true from an entrepreneurial standpoint. Some of the best investors in the country. And yeah, that's all very exciting. I feel extremely lucky to be in the spot that we're in right now, building something innovative. in a very, very large industry. Just functional beverages in the US, it's a massive, massive industry. And doing something truly unique and differentiated with a group of supporters around us that really believe in the vision and what we're trying to build.
[00:20:07] Ray Latif: As far as selling the idea, as far as selling the vision. How much of that is proof of concept and how much of it is the potential to sell a portfolio of brands?
[00:20:19] Zak Normandin: I would say everything in fundraising, we're selling a much broader vision. I want to build the next Coca-Cola, which is I know an audacious claim, but I think that we have the technology and the tools available to us to be able to do that. And that's what we're selling. I'm not saying that retail won't exist, because I think it'll always have a place in commerce. But I think that for high-frequency items like beverages, I think that there's no reason why we can't build a massive company with a direct-to-consumer model. And that's what people are investing in.
[00:20:53] Ray Latif: From a logistics standpoint, where are the bottlenecks? Where are the challenges and pitfalls?
[00:20:59] Zak Normandin: There's so many things. I mean, it's like anyone who's in beverage understands the challenges of running a beverage company, whether it's caps or clean bottles or formulas being the same from run to run. There's a lot of different things.
[00:21:13] Ray Latif: I guess I mean, in terms of a sort of a distribution point of view.
[00:21:17] Zak Normandin: Distribution, there's no bottleneck. It's just consistency. I think that that's the biggest thing that we face is just consistency. And then I think scaling our technology too. We have a very large group of customers right now, but we want to build that to a million or five million or 10 million customers. We're all conditioned to be purchasing beverages through one channel, and that requires a level of scaling that we don't currently have in place, but we're working to make that happen very quickly.
[00:21:45] Ray Latif: Are you hoping to own everything? Manufacturing, distribution, ordering system?
[00:21:51] Zak Normandin: That's to be determined. I mean, right now we're working with contract manufacturers. I don't think that that's a good use of our time right now to be building manufacturing facilities. We're marketing and sales primarily. That's the function of how we're building awareness and appeal around the products that we're selling right now. Obviously, I think at the core of what we're doing, we're a technology company. The technology is the brain of everything that we're doing. But yeah, bottlenecks, I mean, I think it's the same things that any beverage company faces. I think we just manage it with a level of complexity that I wouldn't say is necessarily better than any other beverage company, but it's the same complexities, just in different areas. We manage technology and other people manage broker networks. It's the same type of stuff that you deal with as you scale the volume.
[00:22:38] Ray Latif: Before we get on to the podcast, before we get on to the microphones, I asked you about white space and I kind of asked this a couple different ways before, but for entrepreneurs that are listening and sees white space and see an opportunity to take advantage of the white space, you can do it. There's a lot of opportunity to get into a category, to get into the business, but first movers aren't always the winners.
[00:23:05] Zak Normandin: Whitespace also with being the first larger direct-to-consumer beverage brand?
[00:23:11] Ray Latif: Right, I think there's someone that could be out there and copy your model. I don't think you have a patent on what you're doing. I mean, you may, but how do you kind of gird yourself against competitors and really establish yourself?
[00:23:25] Zak Normandin: I don't think that there's any way to protect that. It can be copied, just like Facebook was copied a bunch of times. Ultimately, we build our value through being there first and moving faster than anyone else, which is what we're doing right now. I don't think there's any way to protect it. I think that the long-term value that we'll build in the platform is going to come through just speed. and really figuring out things before anyone else has the ability to do that.
[00:23:52] Ray Latif: So the value and the ability to stay ahead of the competition is to just run faster than they do at this point? I think so, yeah.
[00:23:58] Zak Normandin: That's our biggest thing is just we need to do more faster. I think it's just speed. I think the market is extremely aggressive right now in all consumer products. I think consumers are very much numb to new brands, a very challenging place to be as a consumer product in any category, whether it's beverages or snacks or whatever. There's so many new brands out there and consumers are conditioned now to be kind of jumping from brand to brand. Yeah, it's something I think about all the time, having longevity and remaining relevant to consumers.
[00:24:32] Ray Latif: And having an image, having a personality. I mean, you know, you guys ooze personality, particularly on your Instagram account. I can't follow you because if my wife saw it, she'd be probably, you know, wondering when I'm looking at it.
[00:24:43] Zak Normandin: Surprisingly enough, the majority, I would say more than 90% of our followers on Instagram are females.
[00:24:50] Ray Latif: I assume so, too. But it's a pretty risque, but also, I don't want to make it sound like a train wreck, because it's definitely not. But it's something you can't take your eyes off of. It's pretty amazing.
[00:25:02] Zak Normandin: That means we're doing our job.
[00:25:03] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's pretty amazing what you've been able to accomplish on Instagram. And you see the first few posts, and then you want to scroll down, and you want to keep scrolling down. And it really is an impressive use of social media. Cool. Thank you. What else are you doing to keep that going beyond Instagram?
[00:25:21] Zak Normandin: I think that experiences like physical experiences are the next evolution of social media. I think that people are going to be looking for tangible real life experiences. They want to get back to connecting with other humans. sharing that experience on social media rather than having social media be the place that that experiences start, if that makes sense. Yeah, so like we're looking at events, like we just did this really big slumber party with celebrities and all kinds of influencers in New York here. Tell me more. So we bought out Dirty French, which is a restaurant here, and a lot of rooms upstairs at the Ludlow Hotel. So the restaurant's on the ground floor and then upstairs is a bunch of rooms. Yeah, we had a party where we had dinner for everyone and drinks and everything, and DJs, and then everyone went upstairs and went to bed. This was to launch our sleep beverage, so all of the mini fridges were stocked with all of our drinks, but sleep was very prominently placed in the rooms. And then the next morning, everyone got breakfast in bed with a bottle of detox, which was to detox from the night before. And it was a huge success. It just continues to keep the brand relevant. And I think we have to do more of that stuff to make sure that we're staying top of mind for consumers.
[00:26:36] Ray Latif: We've got a couple more minutes left, and I definitely wanted to talk to you about why. You're a successful entrepreneur. You could have walked away from the food and beverage industry and done something else.
[00:26:50] Zak Normandin: I think I have an addiction to creating things. After Little Duck, I started a small agency and I was doing work for other brands and I realized that that was very unsatisfying for me as an entrepreneur at heart. And I really had this drive to get back to what I was doing before at Little Duck. And that's what led me to, I met my co-founder Summer through that process and she was working on another project, another food project. And we came together and basically decided to really tackle this whole beverage thing. But that was as a result of kind of leaving it for a while and feeling like a real empty place inside. me personally, if that makes sense, like to get back to something that I had so much fun doing. And I feel extremely fortunate to be in a very similar place now, but be able to kind of leverage and look at all the things I did before and make more deliberate decisions about how to grow what we're building right now.
[00:27:50] Ray Latif: Do you find it easier, do you find it a little bit easier to navigate some of the rougher edges now that you've done it once before?
[00:27:57] Zak Normandin: I think for sure, yeah. Anytime you can look back on past experience and use that to dictate decisions that are moving forward. I think if anything it makes me contemplate things more. I'm always thinking about just the impact of decisions now and how they impact things in the future. And I think I was a little bit more haphazard about that before with Little Duck. So where it was like I was doing everything on gut instinct, which is good. I think it's really important to do that. But I think having the experience is really, really valuable.
[00:28:25] Ray Latif: You have better lawyers now.
[00:28:26] Zak Normandin: Yeah, we have great lawyers.
[00:28:29] Ray Latif: Well done. Zach, this has been great. I really feel like, you know, just it's been a half an hour. I really think our audience got a good feel for who you are and what you're trying to accomplish here.
[00:28:37] Zak Normandin: We appreciate the opportunity for sure to tell the story. I love what you guys are doing, so thank you.
[00:28:42] Ray Latif: Thank you very much, and good luck with everything. Please keep this top of mind when you are launching new products. We always love to try them.
[00:28:48] Zak Normandin: Absolutely. Cool. Thank you so much.
[00:28:51] Ray Latif: So as noted, you know, Zach puts a lot of emphasis on the distribution strategy that they have. You know, he really feels like there's an opportunity to disrupt the way that beverages are marketed and sold through sort of traditional routes to market. You know, I think they've got something there. You guys asked earlier on about, you know, the potential for scaling and that is, you know, I guess the big question out there is, you know, you can plug in a lot of products into that model, but how scalable is it really? And maybe we just can't see it right now, but it seems like they've got some traction and they've got some potential. It's just a question of, you know, how far can you take it?
[00:29:29] Jon Landis: Yeah, I think the only thing that I'm skeptical of is just the fact that it isn't an impulse by the way that most beverages are sold. So I think when he's talking about that sort of scenario where, you know, you're holding the bottle and you're thinking, I need more. you know, that's still a pretty proactive kind of way for someone to shop. You know, generally, it's like, okay, I need a beverage like now, right? What can I get? Where can I get it? So again, I mean, it's something that I'm not saying that from a like, you know, hater perspective. Obviously, they've figured out how to navigate these challenges to date. I'm curious to see how they attempt to navigate that in the future.
[00:30:09] John Craven: I'm curious to see, you know, if there is any other opportunities for this type of disruption to apply in the Industry City? I mean, I think we're seeing like the Amazon dash button and like one click e-commerce purchases are helping a lot of people out. But you know, this is, seems like it's might only just work for really like a lifestyle brand or, something that works very hard on that messaging. And I'm not sure if it's a viable option for too many other brands to expand into this area. And, you know, as we were saying earlier, you know, what, what happens when you've kind of saturated your customers through this channel? Where do you go from there?
[00:30:49] Ray Latif: Or it could just be us being scared of what's in the future. Text and a drone shows up to your Dirty Lemon? Just a thought.
[00:30:56] John Craven: I want some Google glasses and I can just blink. You're never getting Google glasses. Blink in certain patterns.
[00:31:03] Ray Latif: I give Zach a lot of credit because nothing really changes unless you kind of force the issue. And he's looking for an opportunity. He's looking for white space. And we talked about this in the interview, white spaces. You've got to attack it and you've got to be, you know, you've got to be pushing as hard as you can because there are other people who are going to identify it. It's just a matter of, you know, how hard you go after what you believe to be an opportunity. And the same is true with, you know, Alpha Dementia. You know, Thomas Perez and I had a great conversation about What he sees and what his company sees as really the future of super premium, ultra premium in case, you know, coffee and what consumers are demanding from their beverages is sort of, he's at the, he's at this tip of the spear as it were, in terms of extremely high quality coffee and tea and being able to deliver it in a form that is extremely precise, and the best quality that it could possibly be.
[00:32:01] Jon Landis: Right. I mean, I think what's really neat about this, and I sort of feel like what we're about to hear is some real coffee, tea, beverage geekery, almost to the extreme, but I mean, they're at this junction of real like science, technology of what makes all this happen. And then, you know, there's a cool sort of like brand side to it too, just with like the look of the things. And then you've got, you know, that sort of, I don't know if trendy is the word I would put on coffee, but you know, there's always that sort of like side to coffee that's looking for like the next level, right? You know, I don't know. It used to be like pour over and cold brew and now those are all like kind of mainstream things. So what's next? And I feel like that's seems to be kind of what they're working on.
[00:32:43] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's what's next, and it's what consumers are asking for. I mean, consumers continue to want more for their book. And while these machines are pretty expensive, and they're not for consumers, they're for cafes to buy, to sell beverages, and then ultimately sell to consumers. It's something that, you know, it could be something that's a little bit more mainstream as time goes on.
[00:33:04] Jon Landis: Well, and also, you just said, you know, something I find interesting, more for their buck, which the point that I would make is that we're so far from like a buck here, you know? It's almost showing that consumers want to spend more bucks to get, you know, more complicated, more I don't know, pure or just a different experience than whatever they used to pay for. And it seems like their willingness to pay more for that and just acceptance that that's how it's going to be is out there. So I have to imagine that some of that is driving what they're doing.
[00:33:37] Ray Latif: Yeah, for sure. And I should note that Thomas Perez was a longtime president of Bodum, which is a manufacturer of high-end coffee equipment, at-home equipment in most cases. French presses and such. French presses, pour-overs, et cetera, before moving on to Olf de Menchet. I don't think that's something I mentioned in the interview, but just for your own edification. All right, let's get to the interview. Okay, I'm here in Brooklyn in Industry City. I'm sitting in front of Thomas Perez, who's the CEO of Alfa Dimenche. Thomas, thanks so much for being with me. Thank you very much for coming out here. And we're in your brand new facility, this pretty amazing place called the Extraction Lab. It's about 10 days old, and it's part showroom for your custom machines. That's what Alfa Dimenche does. They make these brilliant, pretty amazing forward-thinking machines for cafes, coffee and tea machines, and this is part showroom, part cafe, and part sort of innovation platform for what you guys do. For our listeners who aren't familiar with what you do, can you tell us a little bit about Alpha Dementia as a company?
[00:34:41] Thomas Perez: Absolutely. So the company started back in 2011, 2012. The first couple of years was mainly R&D, and what we did was developing the steampunk as we call it, which is automated siphon brew to make it very short. Basically, this is a coffee and tea brewer that allows you very precise parameter control and you can control everything that will affect your final brew of coffee and tea. We made this machine as a commercial machine in order to help have coffee shops and tea shops out there to get better control and consistency in coffee and tea brewing.
[00:35:15] Ray Latif: And it is very much automated. I saw you brew some coffee and some tea and there's the interface, it looks like an iPad and you're controlling the temperature and how long it's being brewed and everything from the interface. And while that's happening, you can interact with me about what it is, the tea leaves or the coffee beans that you're actually using in the recipe. And I use the word recipe because you use the word recipe, which is really interesting. You know, when you think about brewing coffee or brewing tea, most people think of it as a pretty straightforward process. You add hot water and then tea and coffee, and that's what it is. Why do you guys look at it as a recipe versus anything else?
[00:35:55] Thomas Perez: So we look at coffee and tea, it's both like organic substances. When you brew them, in order to get the full potential and the best result out of the intention of what it's supposed to taste like, you need to have the right temperature, you need to extract it the right amount of time. There's small parameters that really affect how it tastes. It also comes down to what kind of grind size you're using, what filter you're using, and all these kind of things. I think a lot of people know that that makes a difference in what is your final result, but it's also hard to control. And if you're busy in the morning, you know, most people maybe doesn't pay too much attention to it. So with our machine, we believe that every tea and every coffee need to be dialed in specifically for that to get the optimal intended flavor. And that's why we call it a recipe. It's almost like making a chicken or making some kind of food. You also have, you know, it goes in the oven so long time, you do this, you do that. And we basically look at coffee and tea the same way.
[00:36:48] Ray Latif: And you work with, at least in the Extraction Lab right here, you work with a number of coffee roasters and tea suppliers. How does that relationship work in creating a recipe, an ideal recipe for brewing?
[00:37:01] Thomas Perez: It can be different. We have some of the roasters or tea producers we work with here, they already have our machine. So they've already spent a lot of time on their origin to dial in a recipe or brewing profile for whatever beverage it is. In other cases we get samples here and we will work with the coffee and tea in our lab and try to dial in the right recipe for that. There's also other cases where we have different representations in other countries so we will ask that roaster to go to that place and dial in the recipe together with the local representation.
[00:37:33] Ray Latif: Let's talk about the machine itself. The Steampunk machine is a beautifully designed machine. I don't know if I can describe it over audio, so we'll include some photos and some links to the machine so that listeners can see it. It's installed, I think you said, in about 500 cafes? Yes, correct. In the United States, and you're in 35 countries.
[00:37:51] Thomas Perez: Yes, so about 25% of those installations are in the U.S., and there's some in Europe. We only started up in Europe last year, and the rest is in Asia.
[00:38:01] Ray Latif: And you call it a steam punk machine because it's primarily steam that brews the coffee and tea and punk because you see yourself as sort of an outsider disrupting the traditional way of brewing and cafes as it is. Let's start with the steam part.
[00:38:18] Thomas Perez: How does that work? So the steam part works. So the machine is, in order to get the right temperature, for every brew. And normally that will vary between, I would say 145 to about 212, which is boiling temperature. We use steam to hit that right temperature. So we add steam and cold water to get the exact starting temperature. Then what happens is while you're brewing, so let's say you have a coffee that you're brewing for 90 seconds, you can keep that temperature constant throughout the brewing process. And the machine also allows you to add agitation with steam throughout the process, which will kind of turbulate the water and If it's a tea brewing, it will help you open up the leaves. In a coffee brewing, it will help you stir the brewing.
[00:38:59] Ray Latif: And you can control the agitation and the filtration as well, right? Yes, correct. How much of an impact does the... Filtration for sure has an impact. How much does the agitation have an impact?
[00:39:10] Thomas Perez: It has a small impact, not a huge impact. It depends on how much you're using it. But obviously the agitation will help you because you're adding steam and it will help you make the water hotter while you're brewing. But it definitely helps you, especially with tea that has a lot of leaves. It will help the tea to open up faster because you're adding turbulence in the brewing and you're stirring. So that will definitely speed up the process and make your tea extract faster.
[00:39:37] Ray Latif: The punk part of it, you know, I've never been to a cafe like this one. As I noted before, you're inserting the recipe or you're dialing the recipe and you mentioned this, you know, while the coffee or tea is brewing, you can kind of have a conversation with the customer about what makes the coffee different, what makes the tea different, what makes the machine different. You could talk about what your shoes that you're wearing that day. You could talk about a lot of different things. You're really trying to change that customer experience And it all starts with the machine because a lot of it is automated. Why is the time now right for kind of disrupting cafes and how receptive do you think people are going to be to it?
[00:40:14] Thomas Perez: So I think the time is always right for change. I think that's kind of what drives whatever has happened over the last many years. I think we've found a different take on what the experience could be. I definitely think that a lot of customers, consumers, they look for experience when they go out shopping, when they go out enjoying a beverage, when they go to a cocktail bar, when they go to a coffee shop. And we have a machine that will create a new kind of experience. Part of the experience is obviously getting an amazing cup of coffee, an amazing cup of tea, which can be subjective, obviously. Some people don't like exactly the same thing, but another part of the experience is also to see how the whole brewing process is happening. And you see that very clearly in our steampunk as everything is brewed in glass chambers. And the other part of it that I think a lot of coffee shops and tea shops is almost forgetting a little bit as being part of the customer experience is that conversation that goes on while you're interacting with the customer. And I mean, you go to a lot of places where they have either they do pullover or they have big espresso machines and they do espresso shots. And there's a very little interaction because either you're standing behind a huge machine on the counter or you're very focused and concentrated while you're doing the pullover. And we want to add that component that, well, speak to the customer. It doesn't have to be a conversation about, you know, the origin of the coffee. Maybe that's not the interest for everything, but just having that relationship building throughout the brewing process, we think it's really important.
[00:41:38] Ray Latif: Let's talk about the potential for the installation of the steam milk machines beyond where you're at, beyond independent cafes. Do you think that you have an opportunity to sort of mainstream extremely high-quality machines in, say, some of the well-known cafes and cafe operators in this country.
[00:41:57] Thomas Perez: Absolutely. I mean, that's the direction we are working on. One of our next products coming out is coming out this summer. It's called The Sight. It's the same sort of brewing system as we have today, but instead of brewing up to 16 ounces, it's brewing up to a gallon. And that will be the same. That will also be, we find, quite revolutionary to what you see in the coffee and tea Industry City now. Right now, most of what you have in the market, which are batch brewers, which are brewers that is brewing from one gallon up to two or three gallons, are all pretty much looking the same. They're sort of like big stainless steel tanks. A lot of coffee shops, cool coffee shops, they even keep them in the back room because they don't really add any specific aesthetic values to the coffee shop. So I think what we're trying to do is to say, hey, it shouldn't be like this. Let's create a batch brew that is super beautiful and pretty to look at, as pretty as we can put it on the front counter. So that is something that's coming out this summer. And I think there's a lot of potential for that.
[00:42:55] Ray Latif: Does that take away from the experience though? You know, you're brewing per cup, you're brewing a single cup at a time and now you'd be moving to a multi, sort of multi-serve opportunity, multi-serve option. Do you think that that would sort of change the experience in that the coffee might be sitting out for a little bit longer or you're pouring, you know, from a batch that wasn't
[00:43:16] Thomas Perez: just brewed? It's a little bit of a different experience from when you're brewing a single cup, but it's still a big advancement in terms of when you're brewing on the kind of brewers you have today. So I think it's a little bit of both. But I think overall, I think it's an added experience that you don't have in any coffee shops today that we add into the table. And of course, it's up to the coffee shop owner. to make sure that the coffee is not sitting out too long. And we also decided to limit it at one gallon because you do have brewers that can brew up to two or three gallon. First, it would have been too big, obviously, but secondary. One gallon, it's about 10 cups. So if you have a coffee shop with a decent volume, it should be okay.
[00:43:54] Ray Latif: As far as replicating what you have here in Brooklyn, the Extraction Lab, it's a pretty big space. You also have your offices back here behind me. What do you think the opportunity is to, say, create another Extraction Lab in LA or in Miami or in Boston?
[00:44:10] Thomas Perez: I think it's huge. We've only been open to the public for about 10 days, two weeks, and we've already had a lot of inquiries about that specific thing. I don't think we're ready for it now. I think right now we need to kind of find the concepts, make sure that it's viable on all kinds of levels, that we have a workflow that is working for everybody. And if we ever build either, I wouldn't call it a chain, but like multiple units of this, that is going to be successful. So we're working on that, but there's definitely been a lot of interest for that, not only in the US, but also in Asia and other parts of the world.
[00:44:46] Ray Latif: The Extraction Lab as it is right now, you have customers coming in right now just to buy the coffee. As far as clients, cafe owners or what have you, are you expecting a steady flow of those folks? Are you inviting them to come out here and see your machine? I mentioned the showroom aspect of it, but how does that process work? How are you working on a B2B level?
[00:45:09] Thomas Perez: So it will be the same space, we will invite coffee shop owners, we will invite other part of the community in coffee, whether it's a coffee grower, whether it's a roaster to come and use this space. So we have inside of the space, we have a training room, we call it a copying room, where we will invite whoever wants to come and use the space. And we will mix, whether it's a professional operation that comes in here, we will mix that with consumers and have everybody use the same space at the same time. So basically what we're trying to build here is kind of a community space for people who likes coffee. It doesn't matter where you are on that part of the supply chain, whether you're the final consumer, whether you are the guy who's roasting or making the beans.
[00:45:49] Ray Latif: So drawing on your background in consumer products, what did you see in that industry that you felt was necessary to be differentiated and to be innovative in this business, in Alpha Dimentiae and the Extraction Lab?
[00:46:05] Thomas Perez: I certainly learned and felt that there needed to be a closer bridge between the commercial market and the consumers. The consumer product companies, they are definitely closer to the consumers, but they're still not all the way there. There's a few of them who is already reselling themselves. But if you look at the commercial manufacturers, they're very far away from the consumer. And I thought that that will be a fantastic way to do it. I mean, a first hand bridge directly to the consumer and show them what you do, because at the end of the day, with the world we're living in right now, with social media and so on, everything is kind of one world at the end of the day anyway. So you can't just hide behind the wall and say, we are only making commercial equipment. So I took this company from just being a commercial equipment that wasn't really known to the consumer to bring it up to first line. And then now we are interacting directly with the consumer. It doesn't mean that we're not selling through, obviously, other people of the other distributors in the industry, but it means that we have firsthand information from the consumers, what they think about our machine, what we need to make better to make that experience with them better. And we can use that in our R&D. And at the end of the day, we will create a better product.
[00:47:13] Ray Latif: I did want to talk about your background. You came to the company two and a half years ago and you really kind of had the vision for this place. You come across to me as a global citizen, someone who has a lot of interests in a lot of different things, different cultures and experiences. How did you get involved with Coffee&Tea? How did you get involved with Alpha Diminitie?
[00:47:35] Thomas Perez: So I've been in the US for 10 years and for 17 years I've been working, not directly in the coffee industry, but I've been working with coffee equipment and I've been working with consumer products and coffee has always meant a lot to me. I like coffee, even before I started in the coffee Industry City love coffee and I love tea as well. But being in the coffee Industry City's an industry which is a very community-based industry. People are very close. People share the same values. Everybody you meet in this Industry City love what they're doing, and that creates some nice joy and entertainment. So I was working with consumer products in coffee for many years, and then I discovered Alfa Domincia, and they discovered me, and we decided that we should work together.
[00:48:18] Ray Latif: I mean, it's a pretty great match as far as I can tell at this point. Talking about Brooklyn specifically, I've been in Industry City most of the morning here and it's a pretty cool community here. I don't know how many square miles Industry City is per se, but it seems like there's a lot of manufacturing. There's a lot of companies that started out as a brand that now have storefronts. I saw Brooklyn Brine over I think it's on this street as well. Yes. You know, what is it about this area that you see as relevant and important for the food and beverage Industry City this point?
[00:48:52] Thomas Perez: So first you have some very advanced companies in one place, and that in itself is super inspiring. So you see a lot of people here doing things in different ways. And then as you stay here for a longer time, you almost feel that this is becoming some kind of ecosystem for entrepreneurs and for innovators and startups. So, you know, you need some help. You know, you have people who can help you with that. You have people who help you with that. You can see a lot of very good standards and examples of things that can be done in the food industry. And I think that in itself is inspiring. So it's almost like we have a community here where we all kind of have the same common values and we're sharing the same kind of common values.
[00:49:29] Ray Latif: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm just seeing people walk into the cafe right now and it feels like, and I saw some this morning, they seem like they really have a deep level of interest that goes well beyond the front of the package. You know, they're really interested in how it's manufactured and what they're putting in their bodies. I mean, health and wellness aside, they really want to know the origin. They want to know the backstory. And I just, you know, we only have a couple of minutes left. I want to talk about that backstory. How important is it when someone walks into a cafe and they see your machine, how much of that information about the construction and why it's built and operated that way is something that you want the consumer to understand and appreciate as well?
[00:50:09] Thomas Perez: As much as they want to know. I mean, I don't want to inform a lot of things if they're not interested. But it seems like people who are coming in, they're interested in different aspects of what we do. Some people are very interested in our interiors. They walk around and they're curious to see how our tables were made, you know, how, where we got the chairs from. So they're more interested in architectural and aesthetic things. Other people are specifically interested in tea, some in coffee, some in our machines, some in why we're doing this. So I find that there's so many different levels of interest on what we're doing here.
[00:50:41] Ray Latif: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to look at. It's a beautifully designed facility. And if you're listening and find yourself in Brooklyn, you should definitely make your way out here. Make sure not to try to park in front of the place. There's no parking out front, but just a tip. Thomas, this has been really great. And I'm so glad I came out here. And it sounds like you guys are on to doing something really special and can't wait to see how it all unfolds. Thank you very much for coming. It was a pleasure talking to you. You too. All right, John Craven, you absolutely need to get out there to the Extraction Lab. You would spend, I think, three, four hours there and still not really accomplish everything you wanted to accomplish. It's a pretty impressive place that they've created.
[00:51:19] Jon Landis: It's interesting listening to that type of thing on our podcast where I haven't been there. I definitely want to go there. Extraction Lab sounds, I don't know, like some sort of like black site for the CIA or something like that. I think it's really neat. I mean, one thing that I think was really sort of cool that he said in there was, you know, when you were asking about knowing when it's the right time for change. And, you know, he said that the time's always right for change, which I think just reiterates kind of how willing he is to kind of figure out what the next innovation and evolution of coffee and tea is going to be. So I think that's pretty neat. I mean, it's one of those things that right now, after hearing that and kind of seeing what they're doing, I mean, it definitely seems like something that has a long road ahead of it. And I'm sure at some point, if it's successful, it will probably seem like a really compressed time frame and something that was probably obvious in hindsight, much the same way like nitro and cold brew and all that stuff seems obvious now. So a lot of credit for what they're doing.
[00:52:21] Ray Latif: Yeah, and they're really standardizing this sort of process of pour-over and really high-end methods like that via high-tech machines is really what it comes down to. And I also found it really interesting for him talking about a recipe for brewing coffee and tea. Most people, again, don't think of brewing coffee and tea that way. in what Alpha Dementia is trying to communicate to their consumers is that it takes more than just hot water and ground beans to make a really good cup of coffee. Right.
[00:52:52] Jon Landis: Common myth to debunk, I guess.
[00:52:53] Ray Latif: Yes, exactly.
[00:52:54] John Craven: It's really timely. I think, as you're really pointing out here, is people have been just brewing coffee in their homes for decades with a coffee machine. not a whole lot of thought goes into this stuff. And as everyone's trying to innovate their way forward in the category, the science is being done, which I find the most fascinating.
[00:53:15] Jon Landis: Well, it's also fascinating in that the science that, I guess if you call it science, that's been done in the past decade has almost largely been to take the thought out of even more with things like K-cups and- Yeah. stuff like that. So yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know, looking at coffee and thinking it's just, you know, but now people are cold brewing at home, right?
[00:53:36] John Craven: So we're starting, it's obviously starting to come off that pH is, and, you know, figuring out, you know, the chemical balance of your water and everything. And obviously on a professional scale, everyone's doing it as well, but For the most part, everyone's kind of independent of one another. So it's really fun to hear a lot of these people, the work that they're doing and the quality analysis and testing that they're doing, because it's all moving everything forward.
[00:54:01] Ray Latif: Yeah. And, you know, we're moving forward as a company too. It's one of the biggest reasons that our new CMO is aboard, Mike Schneider, who's been with us for a couple of weeks now.
[00:54:12] Jon Landis: His first day was at Expo West. Just threw him right in the water and said, swim. And he swam.
[00:54:18] Ray Latif: You know, he was calling for a lot of help. He was, like, getting a lot of salt water down his throat and a lot of other beverages down his throat as well.
[00:54:25] Jon Landis: Jeez, he was walking around with me most of the time, so it's kind of bad.
[00:54:29] Ray Latif: So he caught a cold as well now. Jeez, dang. But ever since he got here, I think he's been universally welcomed and loved here. I think Mike brings a great energy to the team, that kind of kick in the ass, so to speak. Did I just curse? I did. That is sometimes a lot of fun to have in an office. He comes in bringing a sort of experience level that we haven't necessarily had before. And I think he kind of talks about this in your discussion, right, John?
[00:54:55] John Craven: Yeah, yeah. I mean, as I say in this, I've never even worked with a CMO before, so. It kind of shows, but not as much. It's really interesting to get someone in here who has this type of experience and knowledge and know-how and is willing to get their hands dirty and execute. really is collaborating with every facet of our team here. I've been hoping to have a team player like this, I guess, for a while and someone to kind of link everybody together and do some more communication and figure out, you know, yes, this is the right messaging for this reason. And this is how we move forward with it.
[00:55:32] Jon Landis: And funny, we just, we found him on Craigslist. We just put up a job listing for a day. No, actually, he— It was a job listing that promised you a Mazda Miata, right? We made that joke with someone that we know well at Expo West, and Mike said, you know, in response to, we found him on Craigslist, he's like, yeah, I was selling a bicycle, and they were like— But no, Mike is someone that I've known for a decent amount of years, I think since 2008 or 2009. And a little sort of amusing tidbit, I actually met him via Foursquare, that app that no longer works. This guy lives in my neighborhood and we had similar sort of interests. It all started with a bromance. Started with a bromance of beers and so on and so forth.
[00:56:19] John Craven: You got a push notification and it all just snowballed from there.
[00:56:22] Jon Landis: Yeah, I think I actually took away his mayorship of somewhere. Might have been like CVS or something. But anyway, no, we're happy to have him on board. And I guess we'll see how your conversation pans out. Hopefully, he'll come back tomorrow. All right, let's get to it.
[00:56:44] John Craven: Hey, everybody. Jon Landis here. I am in my back corner office in Watertown here with our new Mike Schneider Mike. Mike Schneider, the Schneidster. I don't know. I don't know. What do you go by?
[00:56:58] Little Duck: I usually go by Mike or Schneider Mike. Cool. Yeah. It's one name, like Ronaldinho. Yes.
[00:57:05] John Craven: All right. So now you come from a tech background, and I think that that's awesome because we're a media company, even though we talk about food and beverage companies all the time, our company is specifically media. And why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, where you come from, the kind of expertise that you're bringing to our business.
[00:57:26] Little Duck: Sure. So I got my start in the technology space as a data warehouse developer, and it helped me to look at the world as a big, giant database. And I'm trying to categorize things and to make them make sense and to get information out.
[00:57:39] John Craven: Right.
[00:57:39] Little Duck: Put information in to get information out. I care a lot about clean data. So do you. Yes. We were just talking about that after we went to the trade show, and we're looking at, you know, at leads that we got and how to make all that data work for us. And so I think a lot about that. And it helped me to think in terms of metrics and analysis. And I've always had this sort of creative itch to scratch, I guess you'd call it. And after 10 years of data warehouse development, I went into the agency world. Because I really didn't like advertising, the state of advertising at the time. I thought that, hey, we have data now, and mobile phones are going to become a thing. And if we use this data, we could turn advertising into something that people actually want. And we got started. doing what we call branded entertainment. And I was doing that for a company called Liberty Mutual, as you may know, the big insurance company. And we came up with something called the Responsibility Project. And that was pretty groundbreaking at the time, but now we just call it content. So I got into the agency world and built analytics groups and content teams and innovation teams for big agencies like Hill Holiday and Allen and Gerritsen. I got to work with some of the ad legends of Boston, like Karen Kaplan and Mike Sheehan and Andrew Graf and Nancy Harhut and Gary Greenberg and Edward Boches and blah, blah, blah. All those people who helped me take the data background that I had and all this categorization stuff and to build a good story around it. and taught me the importance of making things accessible and making things look great. Clean and simple. Clean and simple. And yeah, there's a great Einstein quote about if you can't explain something in a couple of sentences, you just don't understand it well enough. And so I always try to think about things in those terms and how can I get to a place where really understand the message before I put one out there. And then also that there's some meat behind it that one of the things I've learned about branding over the years is that if you have a great message and the product isn't good, then it's a recipe for disaster. And so I really tried to figure out what kind of checks can we actually cash before we write them. I spent seven years in the agency space and I got into social media at the time was becoming a thing. And so I was fortunate enough to be sort of on the forefront of content strategy and thought leadership as a social media person. And that's when I met you guys.
[01:00:13] John Craven: Right.
[01:00:14] Little Duck: Initially.
[01:00:14] John Craven: Through Foursquare.
[01:00:15] Little Duck: Through Foursquare. Yeah. John Craven and I were checking in on places and- Duking it out over mayorship? Duking it out over mayorships. And we actually met in real life and got to talking about other interests like beer. And I had started a beer blog to prove that if you are a guy who's been drinking beer since he was six years old, that you could be a thought leader by doing cool stuff on social media and putting your thoughts out there. And so that's how I met John. That was quite a long time ago.
[01:00:48] John Craven: So I want to ask you about what we're doing here. that makes this the right time to bring in someone with your expertise and skill level and vision that, you know, what are you excited about getting your hands dirty with here at BevNET? And what is it that people who are listening and following what we're doing can expect to maybe change or evolve or grow? Sure.
[01:01:10] Little Duck: As a CMO, the job is to be the brand steward and to be the person who ensures that we're putting our very best foot forward in terms of communication. And that's, in the words that we use and the way that we design things. So it's an experiential thing. So it includes marketing, it includes content, PR, advertising. There's a desire for the CMO to work with both the sales team and the product team and to kind of unify them around the messaging and making sure that our communication internally is as good as externally. And we do a really good job of it at BevNET right now. So that was something that I was really excited about. Another piece of this is that we have these three great brands. And we've got BevNET, and some people might not even know that we have. Also, our Brewbound, and we're also a Project Nosh, and those are all parts of BevNET. And so it's exciting to get your hands on three strong, trusted brands and be able to say, OK, what are those experiences, and how do we make those accessible to all the different audiences that we have? And it's more than just brands. We talk to suppliers, and distributors, and retailers, and we have different ways for them to interact with us that I want to make sure that we have packaged well. Because you know, as well as anybody, that we talk a lot about packaging around here. So I think it's a good thing for us to eat our own dog food and make sure that we're just as well packaged as some of the brands out there that we're covering.
[01:02:41] John Craven: So have you, I mean, you've only been here about a week. You were with us at Expo West. You got to meet a bunch of people out there and walk around with us. And here in the office, you've been here about a week. Obviously, we've known you a little longer than that. But is there anything that you've identified already that you see as a challenge that you really need to get into? Or is there something that you've identified as something that you really want to do more of, something that you really enjoy that you didn't even
[01:03:06] Little Duck: I'm really looking forward to digging into what we call the products of BevNET and Brewbound and Project Nosh and to look at how we can hone those messages and also to streamline the user experiences to make sure that we can optimize for whatever the call to action that we want to optimize for is. So I've dug right into that and that's been a lot of fun so far. One of the great things is that I got to go to Expo West. And so I got to drink from the firehose, basically meet so many of our customers and our prospects and find out what they love about BevNET and to find out what they want more of from us. And I'm really looking forward to doing a lot more of that. So, you know, you can just reach out to Mike Schneider at BevNET.com. And that's like one of the best parts about this job is that I get to talk to people who are making waves in the industry or the people who are doing something innovative and want to make waves and figure out how we can help them do that.
[01:04:07] John Craven: I would have to say that I completely agree with you. That's one of my favorite parts of this. organization is the community and our involvement in it and the opportunity to meet so many people who are smart and come from different areas of the world and different backgrounds and all come together in this one industry and congregate with us. I don't know how I got so lucky to be in a position that, you know, people want to talk to me about this stuff. And I think that that's something I love knowing that, that you enjoy that because.
[01:04:38] Little Duck: It's super fun. And you got to meet some, like, you know, you feel a little bit starstruck at times when you meet people who make products that you really love. Like you get to meet the Drink Maple folks and the, and you know, I really like Vose Chocolate and that was pretty awesome to meet that team. And just a bunch of really great folks at the show who were, they're happy to see you because the BevNET team can't walk five feet in the conference without somebody saying, hey, come try this or great to see you. And it's great to see that kind of brand equity out there. And I can't wait to build that, continue to build that for Project Nosh and for Brewbound as well.
[01:05:14] John Craven: Well, seeing as we're talking about Expo West and all the products there, I want to talk to you a little bit about the reason behind this segment is not only to introduce our audience to people here at the office, but it's to plug some of our favorite bevs and talk about them and see what we got that we like and what we don't. And what is it that you've been drinking around here in the office this week? I know you're crazy about kombucha.
[01:05:38] Little Duck: I'm crazy about kombucha. I have been for a long time. I mean, we just tapped a new health aid keg, and that's so amazing. I've been told not to drink at all.
[01:05:48] John Craven: Yeah. And so I'm trying. People don't hold back, man. You should see. They're filling up these giant steins of kombucha sometimes.
[01:05:56] Little Duck: I'm trying not to do that. So I enjoyed meeting the health aid gang, and the revive gang, and many others there at the show. And that was a lot of fun. A lot of bone broth in the show. And that's confusing as a marketer, because is it a soup? Is it bone broth? Does it drink your vegetables? And are the bone broth companies competing with the companies who don't have bone broth in their drinkable soups or their gazpachos and things like that? So that was pretty interesting for me to talk to some of those folks. I talked to the Teo guys, for instance, and they said, well, we're covered on BevNET, but sometimes our competitors are covered on Project Nosh. And I asked them, where would you like to be? And they said, both, of course. So that's the best thing to hear.
[01:06:46] John Craven: Well, it's interesting hearing you say that coming from a relatively new perspective in the Industry City? Because I've been seeing the drinkable soups for years now, and the bone broths are more of a relatively new phenomena. But now we have drinkable soups with bone broth in them, so it is very confusing. I know exactly what you're saying. We sampled some interesting bone broth here. We sure did. I had a jar of the epic bison apple cider bone broth. Yeah, it had like celery and- It was very much a soup, carrots and garlic and apple cider vinegar. The kitchen sink. Yeah, yeah. And it was in this Mason jar that very apothecary type seeming type of label. It looked like something maybe out of a gypsy carnival, perhaps. Yeah, the label was intricate and detailed and had a lot of elements to it. Certainly an interesting thing.
[01:07:41] Little Duck: So we opened this, okay, and we're skeptical because it's in this, It's in this jar, and the mouth of the jar is just too big to be a drinking jar, right? So it's a very big opening, so we decided to take a sniff. And we both looked at each other, and we're like, I don't know about this. I mean, I smelled like it was kind of a salami, sort of funky salami smell. Meat water. Meat water, yeah.
[01:08:09] John Craven: And then what happened? Well, then, then we looked at each other and I, we poured in a glass and it was still cold. So the fat was like coagulated and stuff. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, and you're like, cheers and clink my glass and go to drink it. So I'm like, Oh, I just got to bite the bullet now. Yeah. Yeah. And we both sip it. And then we looked at each other and it was like, Oh, it was good.
[01:08:32] Little Duck: It was good. So, you know, you can't, no judge in a book by its cover apparently, um, or by the nose. I mean like, and it sort of reminded me of the wine world where sometimes you'll, You'll get your nose into something, or the beer world, where you get your nose into a Saison that smells like a horse blanket and it just finishes like a dream come true. You're like, oh, this is the best stuff I've ever tasted.
[01:08:52] John Craven: And then we heated it up and it had even more elements. It had more of the apple notes came out and the fat had then dissolved into it. And it was a little bit greasier on the palate.
[01:09:01] Little Duck: Yeah, this was a rare case where heat actually helped the flavor. And a lot of times, cold's the enemy of flavor, so you can't taste as much. And in this case, as it heated up, the flavor was even more expansive and was good.
[01:09:13] John Craven: And what I liked about it was they're really calling it a sipping broth. They're not encouraging you to drink an entire jar in a sitting. It's like, pour a little bit into a glass and heat it up and sip on it. And that's my problem with the bone broths, is it's a 12-ounce bottle and saying, here, drink this stock. I can't drink 12 ounces of stock with a meal. It doesn't sit with me.
[01:09:34] Little Duck: I put down a 12-ouncer of Bonafide, and I liked it, but it's confusing to have it in that format. It's still confusing for me to have it in that format. I can do it, and I liked it. And as a kid, I always liked cold soup, so it fits for me. But I want to know who is the ideal customer for this, and is it going to take off?
[01:09:56] John Craven: The ideal customer for cold-pressed juice plus bone broth combo. Hashtag drink your vegetables. Bones. Drink your vegetable bones. Right. Well, I think it's interesting. It'll be interesting to follow. I always say with a product like this, it's probably going to do just fine in the natural channel with its low-host shoppers, and it's totally going to its core demographic. It's when you need to expand beyond that and expand the demographic that you appeal to, that's where they're really going to have some difficulty. I don't know how that would do in a Costco, right? It's going to be very interesting to follow. Someone is going to crack the code with this stuff though and create a phenomena. I just don't know if it's happened yet.
[01:10:42] Little Duck: In a Costco, you know, you're like three gallon bottles of three gallon jugs of bone broth.
[01:10:50] John Craven: All right, so I mean, I don't like to dwell on flavor too much. And you're a marketing guy. So let's talk about packaging and the types of products that you're seeing visually. Have you seen anything that really stands out, the brands that are doing anything really awesome?
[01:11:04] Little Duck: One of the great things about being at Expo West was just being able to geek out with brands who are just brand new. Like Beach, for instance, drinkbeach.com.
[01:11:12] John Craven: These guys, they brew- Coffee and tea, and they brew it in coconut water. In coconut water.
[01:11:18] Little Duck: So that's their big differentiator. But all the decision makers, like the CEO, the COO, and the head of design, right there. That's like the whole company. Yeah, exactly. And so it was really cool to kind of get a chance to geek out with them and talk to them about, here's the first version of Natural Products, and here's what we want to do, and be able to discuss roadmap. And that was really fun. And it reminded me a lot of just sort of the early days when I was working at Skyhook. And Skyhook didn't have a really great brand. No one knew that they'd invented location services. And it evoked that same feeling of just hope and understanding that if we had a great product and if we got the message out there in a way that was accessible to people, that we could make a big difference.
[01:12:01] John Craven: So that was really fun. And shout out to Josh. I know Josh from Beach Coffee and Tea is a big podcast listener. I spent some time talking to those guys, too. They're really, really nice. Great product. They have a lot to learn. And they got their heads down and they're really getting it done. I agree with you. I love this next wave innovation the Opportunity that we have to talk to them and give them help advice feedback opinions, whatever it is One more person exactly just another person, but I totally am with you on that So, Mike, we got to hear a little bit about what you're up to here, a little bit about what you're drinking and what you like seeing out there. Where can people find you? What do you do when you're not honing in messaging for a company?
[01:12:48] Little Duck: Yeah, you can find Mike Schneider, at BevNET.com. Love to hear from anybody who has something to say about BevNET or Brewbound or Project Nosh. Instagram, bevnetmike. You can get me there. When I'm not at BevNET, you find me on the soccer field. or watching Arsenal. I'm a big Arsenal football club supporter. That might hurt a few feelings, but I'm willing to risk it.
[01:13:13] John Craven: I still don't understand how people growing up in the United States are fans of soccer or even specific teams, but Godspeed, man.
[01:13:22] Little Duck: It's a coverage thing. It's like media channels have evolved. And we've been able to see that soccer is, in fact, the biggest spectacle in the world. Growing up as kids in the United States, we never got to see that stuff. So I feel really good for the next generation of US soccer players because the media has changed everything. I love longboarding. Nice. And I'm also a runner, so skateboarding, running. And of course, I love drinks, all kinds of drinks. Especially the booch. Especially the booch and beer and I've been getting into wine and spirits and gonna have a few Negroni's with With Craven, I'm sure he's been dialing those in he's he's up on those right now. And yeah, I like cooking too.
[01:14:06] John Craven: Oh nice Yeah, I cook a lot to love cooking. Are you on Pinterest? Oh
[01:14:10] Little Duck: I am on Pinterest. Yeah, great recipes. I'm more of a lurker on Pinterest than a content creator, which is strange because I usually am a content creator.
[01:14:18] John Craven: Unabashed fan of recipes on Pinterest right here. So good to know, man. Well, we're looking forward to working with you here, man. It's really exciting to have you on board. I know I speak for the entire team when I say that, too. So I hope our audience is appreciating hearing from you and that people reach out. You know, you guys know where to find us, so we'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, man.
[01:14:43] Ray Latif: You know, the one thing about Mike that kind of gets on my nerves, he's an Arsenal fan, and, you know, those is just, why would you be an Arsenal fan these days? Always got to make it about soccer.
[01:14:55] John Craven: Yeah, why is anyone in this country a soccer fan is beyond me.
[01:14:59] Ray Latif: Well, why is anyone a hockey fan? I don't get hockey. I used to get hockey back in the BU days, but... No, you know, in all honesty, that was fun. I think once again, it's really interesting to have someone with his experience level on board. And hopefully this is something that our listeners, viewers, readers, everyone will kind of enjoy Mike's contribution to the team going forward. And I think if there's anything to be taken from your conversation is that, you know, kombucha is something that's just not going away in this office.
[01:15:31] John Craven: No, clearly. And if you have any concerns or anything, you can just email Mike Schneider BevNET.com.
[01:15:36] Jon Landis: There you go. Don't even bother with Landis anymore.
[01:15:39] Ray Latif: That's the extent of your conversation. Just email someone else. Yeah.
[01:15:44] John Craven: I got enough emails going on.
[01:15:45] Ray Latif: OK, fine. All right. Thanks for making it through the 50th episode of the BevNET podcast. Really, really appreciate all of everyone who's listening and sending us comments. thoughts of encouragement via email, please continue to do so. You can do that by emailing us at podcast at BevNET.com. We accept all comments. We accept all questions. We accept all inquiries. And in some cases we accept, you know, some complaints about something. you know, standing on our soapboxes and whatnot. But that's kind of what we do, right? So. All right. That's all we have for right now. Please join us for the next edition of the podcast, episode 51. That's next week, right?
[01:16:26] John Craven: That's next week.
[01:16:27] Ray Latif: All right. What a week. What a week. John Craven, I think. Thank you for listening. Have a nice day.
