[00:00:03] Ray Latif: You're listening to the BevNET podcast. I'm Ray Latif. I'm here with Jon Landis and John Craven. We're at the BevNET headquarters here in Watertown, Massachusetts. For those of you who don't know what the podcast is, let me tell you all about it. It's a weekly podcast that explores current trends and news from the food and beverage industries. It features discussions with The Tim as well as interviews with founders, industry experts, and other interesting people. We got a lot of interesting people that we talked to, right, John? Which John? Which John, right.
[00:00:29] Jon Landis: I'm going to defer to Jon Landis.
[00:00:30] Ray Latif: Jon Landis, okay. We do talk to a lot of interesting people on and off the podcast. We do, but we're talking about the podcast as it is right now. Who's your favorite interviewer to this point?
[00:00:40] John Craven: I really liked Tom First. I really liked Ken Sadowski. I don't know. Guys that I know, I guess.
[00:00:46] Ray Latif: Your buddies. Yeah. John Craven, what's your take on that subject, on that topic?
[00:00:53] of BevNET: I'm going to give a lame answer. I like them all. Uh, no, I guess, uh, I don't have them all. I don't them all. Oh, not the mall. The Tim we were at the mall. No, I guess I, more than anything, just hope that we have made these things better over the course of, sorry, what episode is this again? 57. 57. Hopefully we've, you know, learned a thing or two and just want to keep making them better.
[00:01:17] Ray Latif: I agree. And moving upward. I got another one, Scott Uzzell. That one was a lot of fun. Scott Uzzell is a chill dude. Yeah, for sure. Scott Uzzell, the president of Venturing and Emerging Brands, the operating unit of the Coca-Cola company.
[00:01:27] of BevNET: Just like your onstage showdown plug there. You've got that burned in your brain.
[00:01:32] Ray Latif: I do. It literally, I think a piece of my brain is the showdown itself. Yes. As John Craven mentioned, this is episode 57. This is the May 12th edition. So if you're listening on May 13th, don't worry. You're still on track. All right, great stuff this week. Our big interview of the day is The Tim Sperry, who is the founder of The Tim Sperry Group. If I had my own company, I'd probably call it the Ray Latif Group as well. Kudos to him for having the guts to do that.
[00:01:58] of BevNET: I think he would be more of a conglomerate or a cartel, but yeah, Tim is a veteran of the natural food industry. I think he's one of those guys that you'll hear stories, if you talk to enough people, about the old days of Expo West being a bunch of hippies with some card tables. And I think he's seen that whole progression. And we, Carol Ortenberg, our editor of Project Nosh, and I sat down The Tim to talk about what's going on at Whole Foods, which is a place that he had a long tenure at. And also Carol spent some time there as well. So, it's very timely with their earnings call this week. And I think there's just concern over kind of what it means for both the consumer, the company, as well as all the brands that are out there trying to leverage Whole Foods to get their company off the ground. So, that's what we talked about.
[00:02:53] Ray Latif: Certainly, changing times mean everyone, and you know, still to this day, wants to be in Whole Foods. If you're a natural foods product, it feels like that's ground zero for where to start and where to be.
[00:03:03] John Craven: I think that was much more true like three or four years ago. And now with the conventional retailers opening up their sets and looking for more entrepreneurial brands, there's a lot more opportunity.
[00:03:14] of BevNET: Well, that's some of what we talk about. I mean, I guess from my perspective of whatever the 20 years I've been in the industry here, A long time ago when you were launching, you were starting out at mom and pop stores and there would be no bragging rights of, oh, I'm in such and such retailer in my backyard. Whereas Whole Foods, certainly from being a national name, even if you're in one store somewhere, it's sort of had some prestige to it. And I think the other thing that is even more impactful of it is just that it's sort of legitimized natural foods. No one ever launched in natural foods prior to whatever, I don't know, a decade or so ago. Being focused on natural was unacceptable.
[00:03:59] John Craven: I mean, it's a bit of a chicken or an egg type of thing, right? Because like did Whole Foods build the platform that allowed these entrepreneurs to then start coming out with natural foods? Or did the entrepreneur community want to start making products like this and now there's an opportunity. So I mean, part of it I think is Whole Foods capitalizing on the fact that like all the new entrepreneurial brands are natural and healthy.
[00:04:23] of BevNET: Yeah, I mean, I think they have obviously done a lot to incubate certain categories out there. I think in the beverage industry, I give them a lot of credit for helping to incubate kombucha, for example. And the problem with it is that they're doing a lot of the hard work to incubate a category like that. And then it kind of graduates the mainstream. And what does Whole Foods have? It's sort of just a, I guess, a victim of its own success and times are changing and it's time for Whole Foods to change too. So I guess we'll, uh,
[00:04:52] Ray Latif: Well, it's interesting you mentioned kombucha because another segment that we have in this episode of the podcast is a discussion with senior staff reporter, Martín Caballero, who has been reading, writing extensively about some of these timely topics, including what's happening in the kombucha category. A lot of things to talk about. He's writing a multi-part series of BevNET on issues like science versus nature. You know, what are, in terms of health benefits, you know, what can be proven and what can't be proven at this point? Sugar and alcohol and, you know, how much alcohol is actually in kombucha and how do you test it? So he's doing a multi-part series on that and I talked to him for a new piece called Trendspotter about that category. I also talked to him about what's going on with soda taxes across the country. A lot of chatter about new initiatives, new bills coming to the forefront and the ones that are currently in play in certain cities like Philadelphia and Berkeley, California. You know, what's been the impact, what's been the fallout in some cases. We also have included in this podcast a Elevator Talk with Justine Monsul of Monfifo, which makes these great ginger and turmeric shots that they manufacture in Brooklyn and sell in that Metro New York area.
[00:05:59] of BevNET: So. Thank you for taking that segue, by the way. I totally meant to hand that off to you by mentioning kombucha. We're just that. We're total pros here.
[00:06:07] Ray Latif: We're in sync. Not like the band, but like kind of close to it. If you were in the band, I think you'd be like the Justin Timberlake. I'd be the JC Chazet. He'd be like Chris Kirkpatrick or something.
[00:06:16] of BevNET: I think he'd be the guy smashing the stage with a guitar or something.
[00:06:19] John Craven: That's not insane. I'm just surprised you can name more than Justin Timberlake, which is all that I got out of that. Lance Bass. Who's the other guy?
[00:06:26] Ray Latif: Joey Fatone.
[00:06:27] John Craven: Lance Bass went to space, didn't he?
[00:06:28] Ray Latif: We are way off topic at this point. I think you went to space. All right. We got Tim Sperry. No other introduction needed. Let's do this.
[00:06:37] of BevNET: All right. So, I am here at BevNET headquarters and I am having a conversation with Carol Ortenberg, who is the editor of Project Nosh, a member of our team, of course, and Tim Sperry Group The Tim Sperry Group, who is joining us here today. Thanks for coming by, Tim. Good morning, guys. So, you're very much a veteran, a long, long veteran of natural foods. I think, I don't know, I almost wonder what sort of natural foods was like. I think you started back in the early 80s. It certainly was far from, I guess, what you would call mainstream. Can you give us a little bit on just your background in natural foods and kind of, you know, what you're doing today? So 35 years ago, I was volunteering in a food co-op in Pittsburgh. And a friend of mine decided to go off to graduate school. So that left a vacancy and I didn't like what I was doing for pay. So I thought, what the heck, let's try it out. So that's how I got in, you know, sort of accidentally got into the food business. It was in an 800 square foot building in a neighborhood near the University of Pittsburgh. And we lasted for about two more years and then ended up merging with another co-op, which is still in existence in Pittsburgh called East End Co-op. And then circumstances took my wife and I to North Carolina, where I needed a job. She was working in the university. And I met a man named Lex Alexander, who had two stores, actually at that point had one store in Durham called Wellspring Grocery. And I started as the produce manager with Lex. And five years after that, we had opened a second store in Chapel Hill in 1990. And in 1991, this guy named John McKenna had just been foiled by folks in Colorado at buying a company called Alfalfas. So he had money and he wanted to grow. So he came to North Carolina and he and Lex struck a deal and they bought Wellspring Grocery. We became stores 12 and 13 of a $98 million privately held company. And then in, we were now the Southeast region of Whole Foods Market. In January of 1992, the company went public. A day we celebrated back then, maybe not so much celebration going on now with everything that they're under the gun for. But nonetheless, that was the beginning of the expansion. So in October of 92, they bought Bread and Circus. And being a native New Englander, I wanted to come back. So my boss in North Carolina came up here to run Bread and Circus and brought me. And I stayed up to 250 stores and $5 billion in sales, and then went into consulting and started working on the manufacturing side. And Carol, you also have some experience at Whole Foods too. I guess I'm the only one, my experience is shopping at Whole Foods, I suppose, but you want to tell our listeners a little bit about that too?
[00:09:55] Jon Landis: Sure. I wanted to work for Whole Foods so badly, I took the very first job I could get that was marketing related. And I was a demo specialist, demoing on the floor for about three months before moving into a marketing role in the North Atlantic region of Whole Foods. And you certainly learn a lot being on the floor with the customers, seeing exactly how they respond to everything. And that really instilled a love of food and food brands for me.
[00:10:24] of BevNET: So I guess here we are today talking about just the present state of Whole Foods, which This week, they had their quarterly earnings release, a lot of stuff happening. I guess, curious, Tim, you know, what your perspective is.
[00:10:40] Jon Landis: Yeah, what were, what do you think were some of the highlights that really stood out to you from the call?
[00:10:46] of BevNET: Well, clearly the board change. I think that is, that's monumental. You don't suddenly go and add five new members to your board and, you know, the board members who left, two of them in particular, Bud Sorensen has been there since, well, he was there in 1992 when I first came into the company. And John L. Strott came not too long after that. So that's a pretty big change in institutional memory, if you will. Some would argue that it shows that after many, many years, Whole Foods is growing up. I would argue that I think they're still not sure of what exactly they want to be when they grow up. And I think that certainly Wall Street this morning was very happy. Stock is up 5%. But what does it mean for the customer experience? And I think we can posit different scenarios, but I don't think we know what it's going to look like two, three years from now.
[00:11:51] Jon Landis: So, you know, board seems very removed for a lot of our listeners who are brands, you know, how can the changing of a board kind of affect, you know, what happens on the store level and what happens with brands and customer experience?
[00:12:05] of BevNET: A good board is supposed to be visionary. A good board is supposed to be advisory. They're the people that upper management relies on to bring ideas in from the outside. And I think that the whole idea of bringing ideas in from the outside is the part that worries me a little bit about this new board. You look at some of the brands from which they came. Foot Locker, it's not what I would call a successful brand. Best Buy, jury's still out. Have they resurrected themselves? I don't know. I think Ron Shake from Panera is an excellent addition to the board, but what you don't have in this new group are any visionaries. They all come from old stayed retail as opposed to where are the food people? Where are the people who are thinking about what does it look like in this digital universe? And what does it look like in this blue apron plated purple carrot universe? And I don't, that's the part I didn't see. And I think that, you know, again, from the point of view of Wall Street, good hires from the point of view of the customer and Whole Foods three, four, five years from now, I don't see them leading it. And I also am not sure that the new upper management is also gonna be doing that. Where's the vision? How can we take on these beasts in retail and keep ourselves successful? I don't see that.
[00:13:51] Jon Landis: Talking about the customer experience, one of the things they really focused on yesterday was that, you know, we're going to focus on our core consumer. The consumer that shops with us, I think they said four times a month, our goal is to add one more trip for them or, you know, a little bit bigger basket size, rather than kind of focusing externally and looking for new consumers. Do you think that's the right strategy? And, you know, how do brands sort of play into that strategy?
[00:14:22] of BevNET: I think as a strategy, it is the right thing. You've got to, you know, you have to play to your base. You have to get loyalty out of the customers who know you. I mean, you still have to always be mining for new customers. That's just the nature of the business, but you have to remember your core. And the thing is, is that I would argue that I'm not sure that they're doing that. I mean, so let's cast aside my 20 years with the company. I still am their core customer. I go there three, four, five times a week. And I now walk into the store and I don't see things that I'm used to seeing. And I see something that I've raised this with people, it actually floors me. I see holes on the shelf. That's not the Whole Foods that I grew up in. We drilled it into our people. Make sure the place looks full and abundant. I walked in one day, and I swear, I jokingly said, what is this? The Moscow set of the Americans? It shocked me. And I think that if you're going to appeal to your core customer, you've got to have the products they want, some of which are Old-time products have been around for a long time, but it's in categories they expect to get and they don't necessarily Transfer their allegiance to another brand when it's not on the shelf And I guess as far as the board members that are coming in I mean presumably bringing in people from big-name, you know retail or larger scale retail they have experience and maybe can address that but You're talking about also not seeing the stuff that you're used to. Do you mean in terms of like new products or types of products or can you expand upon that? I mean, it's certainly it's products that I've grown accustomed to liking. Being in the business, you know the pedigree of a product, you know how it's made, you know some of the stuff that goes into it. So when you walk into the store and it's replaced by another brand and Unfortunately, I may know too much about that brand. I'm not as open. Now, not everybody is an industry veteran like me, so they may be more forgiving. But I think there are a lot of people who, over the years, become loyal to certain brands, and they want to see certain categories represented. And then when they're not there, they go elsewhere. And so that's the risk they take. And I think, again, pulling many, many decisions back to Austin in some respects is a very good thing to do and in other respects is not because now you're not in touch with your consumer.
[00:17:17] Jon Landis: So, you know, on that, that pulling decisions back to Austin yesterday, they talked a lot about how they had tested a category management system, and now they're going to sort of expedite that a little faster for more of a global category management system. How do you think that plays out for brands? How will that change the dynamic of the store?
[00:17:38] of BevNET: I think for the larger brands, they're going to love this because now they have one point of contact. They have assurances that programs they run with Whole Foods are going to be executed. All this kind of stuff is going to work for them. But the smaller brands, the ones that Whole Foods has historically built, I don't know how it's going to work for them. And I worry that when you're sitting in Austin making decisions about how a Whole Foods in Boston should look and interact and all of that, data is only going to give you so much. If you look at somebody like Kroger, they've done a pretty good job of blending regional with national. And so there's still decision making that happens in under the banners, under the many Kroger banners, so that they're able to offer a more differentiated look in certain areas. And that's the piece that Whole Foods is gonna have to be really careful with, because if you don't create the look and feel at the local level of being connected to the region you're in, then you're monolithic.
[00:18:55] Jon Landis: for some of our smaller brands that are listening, what can they start doing now to keep this in mind and get prepared for these changes?
[00:19:03] of BevNET: Well, certainly, I mean, where there are, and again, we're talking primarily about grocery because some of the perishable departments have done for many years have already, they've figured out the sort of the regional national divide. Produce has got a really good system. Meat's getting pretty good. Seafood has had one for a long time. In the area of packaged goods, I would make sure that if you're, let's just use Boston, because that's where we are right now, I would make sure that I knew who the regional people were and that I was doing everything I could to get to the regional people and introduce them to my products. And then, you know, hopefully over time, Whole Foods will start to set up maybe some regional mechanisms by which they forage, for lack of a better word, and look for those new products and new up-and-coming products. But I don't know what the system is going to be for transferring the win in one region onto the national level. How does that happen? And I think that's really a question that a lot of people are asking. Whereas before, you knew because they had this collaborative style and they talked to each other. And so on a call, You know, one buyer would mention a brand that they were working with and it would go through, but unless a brand is just blowing the sales index off the charts in one region, they don't become numerically noticed. So what's the transfer of information flow look like? Well, I think that's also a great point, the numerically noticed part, in that it seems like Whole Foods has always had a certain side to what they do that just wasn't numerically driven in the first place. I mean, I think a certain point, and maybe even now and up to some extent, is a place that one would associate with sort of bleeding edge innovation when it comes to food and beverage products. And I guess the question I have is, are we at a point where that part of Whole Foods history is going to, I guess, start to go away? And if that's the case, what does that mean for all of these brands that, you know, have hopes and dreams of bringing some wild new crazy thing to market, you know, where do they go to prove it now? So to the larger question, if you don't feed a muscle, it atrophies. And I think that's something that they're at risk of right now is if they don't figure out a way to keep that local or, you know, that innovative DNA inspired or figure out ways that Austin can see this stuff going on, they're going to run the risk. The good news is that, you know, if we were having this conversation three years ago, I would say it's scary. The options aren't there. The good news today is Kroger's innovative. Target, to a certain degree, is innovative. And then you've got the regional grocery chains have woken up. And so if you have the right distribution or connections into them, there's no reason why you can't pioneer a brand with a Roach Brothers or a Big Y or even a marketplace. Those players here in our area are now starting to pay attention. And so the options are there, whereas before, If you didn't get into Whole Foods, it was a long, hard struggle. Well, it seems like at a certain point, Whole Foods sort of replaced the brands that used to launch, let's say, a farmer's market or something super duper small. We would be hearing from brands that were in literally one or two Whole Foods. I'd even go into the Whole Foods near our office here and you'd see a beverage brand that was clearly like a really, you know, small batch hand, you know, and granted, maybe that isn't the worst thing if opportunities like that go away and brands need to sort of be better capitalized or have better packaging or whatever it might be. But that does seem like something that, you know, when you look at the, the layout of a Whole Foods store and just, you know, some of the higher velocity products, the beverages, the snacks, there are still, it is still sort of like an incubator at a certain point, right? Does a Kroger or someone that is larger, Can they replace that part of what Whole Foods has been doing? Or do we go back to sort of the mom and pop farmer's market sort of ways? I think it's both. Depending on the skill level of the brand and their financing, they may be able to play the Kroger game. But some of those other ones that are a little bit more bootstrapped, they are going to have to go back to the mom and pop game. But that's not necessarily a bad thing either, because just like The Whole Foods and Kroger's and Targets of the World are struggling in this big, huge ocean of competition. These small markets are also, you know, they're up against some of the same headwinds that have more of an impact on them. So I would argue that if you're running a small market today, medium-sized market, you need to up your game. And so maybe the solution is for some of those smaller, less capitalized manufacturers, go to them. And for the markets, there's independence and maybe one or two store chains that we have in the area. If they step up their game, then maybe they can be known as the place to do it. I mean, I remember way back in the early 90s when we opened at Fresh Pond. That was really the first big- In Cambridge, yeah. In Cambridge. The first big Whole Foods expansion in the Boston market. Well, there's a couple stores in Cambridge that have been there for many, many years. They could have either rolled over and played dead or upped their game. And I'm thinking specifically about Cambridge Naturals. And Michael Kantor is still there today. It's transferred to a new generation running the business. you know, they decided way back in 1993 that, you know, they were going to figure out a way to differentiate themselves. So I would argue that, again, today you're running a small market, seek out some of these brands and see if there are ways in which you can bring them into the fold. And then, you know, even share those ideas with some people who you might think of as your competitors, but in fact are not because they're geographically removed. And maybe that's, you know, one of the ways in which they can grow.
[00:25:59] Jon Landis: You know, it's interesting, we've been talking about Whole Foods, the traditional Whole Foods market, but a big thing on the call yesterday too was their second set of stores, the 365 stores, which they just sort of launched what they're calling 365 2.0. And the opportunity for innovation and small brands in those stores is still a little bit yet to be seen even.
[00:26:24] of BevNET: In general, I mean, I've only been to one of the stores. I've been to the Silver Lake store in L.A. and I liked what I saw for the market they're in. I think it does offer an opportunity for the brand to move into maybe some of the smaller markets. I think one of the things that Big Whole Foods has suffered from through the years is expanding into markets with the traditional Whole Foods that those markets weren't ready for them. So perhaps 365 is one that could go in there. I think if done right, they could give the Aldi's and Lidl's of the world a run for their money. I don't know about the small brand experience in those stores just yet, because I think there's the mindset of the folks running them right now is all around private label and selected, powerful national brands. Maybe on the food service side, prepared foods and whatnot, there could be some opportunities. But I think from a strictly branded perspective, I don't see 365 as that incubator just yet.
[00:27:36] Jon Landis: I know you're working with, you know, a bunch of small brands. What sort of feedback are you hearing from small brands with concerns? And, you know, if any of our listeners are kind of struggling with these topics right now and how to develop plans with retailers, can they reach out to you? And is this something you sort of assist brands with?
[00:27:55] of BevNET: I mean, it's, it's really the core of my business is helping brands go to market or actually, you know, some of the piece of the business has turned into not bringing them to market, but helping them stay in market, and really looking at different strategies for maximizing their opportunities. And in the early days, it was all about getting into Whole Foods. And now it's about, let's go look at the big, wide universe. Let's look at what I call mini-world domination, the idea of taking a geographic market and saturating it. And how does this week's sort of earnings call from Whole Foods and just the sort of current shift that's going on, you know, does it accelerate the need for brands to think that way? I don't know that it necessarily accelerates it. I think that the bigger retail landscape means that you have to do that. You know, in the old days, you went to a Whole Foods, they were your go-to store or you went to your local market. You had a go-to store and you were very loyal to them. The consumer is, I would argue, loyal to brand, but not loyal to store. And so if you're going to be successful in a market, you need to be in as many of those markets as possible, because the consumer will be disappointed if they like your brand and they go to another store and the brand's not there. Well, I guess that's a good sort of maybe final thing to touch on, which is, you know, obviously, like there are many other retail outlets for natural foods than there used to be. And we're seeing just a crazy rise in that industry from a brand perspective too. What do you sort of view as the outlook for just natural foods in general? I mean, the opportunity has to be, as you're talking to brands, a lot bigger and probably more positive than it was 5, 10 years ago, right? I think the opportunity is huge. The work you need to do to be successful is equally large because it's no longer, again, it used to be that tried and true. I go to Whole Foods, I go to Retailer X and I pioneer my brand and then it goes nice and neatly through a distribution system and I eventually get around the country. Now it's, how do I get into the office space? How do I get into college convenience stores? How do I get into convenience stores? How do I get into military? You know, the list goes on. It's, you know, last week I saw a presentation by a broker who does nothing but sell into corporate micro markets. And, you know, we were in San Francisco, so it's a who's who. You know, it's a who's who of every up and coming brand, but Everybody's clamoring to be in there because that's the new white space. You know, one of the things that I talk about a lot with brands now is the idea of maybe you don't start the traditional way. In other words, you go down that other route. And I use an example of a company that I worked with for a number of years that didn't start out in the traditional grocery retail. They started out selling up and down the street. It's a snack brand. They went through beverage distributors, but in a certain part of the Northeast, their potato chips are on everybody's rack. And people want to know how they got there. And it's because they went a different route. And now they're going into retail. And I guess how much of that do you preach to brands that you talk to? I mean, it seems like we've kind of had this long run of brands that, you know, it's like, there's this almost cookie cutter, like go to Expo West, go to Whole Foods, do some demos and kind of work from there. It sounds like the environment that you're sort of talking about here, and I assume preaching to your clients, it's much more complex than that. So I guess for someone who's just getting into it, you know, what's sort of the general like framework that you would, that you would give them if they're kind of like, where do I start? I think that, you know, the world is your oyster because it's, it's like, if you see a retail opportunity, go to them, start just, you know, I mean, entrepreneurs are some of the most bold brazen people there are. And they come up with these really great ideas and they're willing to like push the envelope on the idea. Well, now go push the envelope on who you want to get it into. And, and there's nothing wrong with going to somebody and saying, Hey, I've got this great new product. What do you think about it? And they may say, no, no, I'm not interested. Go on to the next one. Don't say I've got to go down this road. You're not at a fork. You're at like, what do you call a five point intersection or whatever, but it's like, there's not a bad road to go down. I guess you're more like standing in the middle of a five-point intersection about to get run over or something like that, right? But awesome, Tim. Well, I really appreciate you taking The Tim to talk to us. And I guess if people want to reach out to you, I think they can find your info on your website, right? Yeah. And LinkedIn is a really great way to find me as well. Awesome. All right. Well, thanks a lot. Thank you. The best part of sitting in a room The Tim Sperry talking about Whole Foods is you can just see it was such an important part of his career and he feels, I think, still indebted to Whole Foods. It's like you can just see the energy. of him sort of like getting, you know, worked up talking about this too.
[00:33:34] Ray Latif: We call it amped in this office. Amped.
[00:33:36] of BevNET: He's getting so amped. Amped. And after we stopped recording, I think we kept talking for a while about it, but he has lots of good theories on what they should do. he's another just great resource that definitely would encourage anyone out there who kind of needs help with a good retail strategy to reach out to.
[00:33:54] John Craven: So, and like certification, he's, he's like a guru on how to get all that certification done as well.
[00:34:00] of BevNET: Yeah. Well, with that, the amount of perspective and tenure he has in the space, just even having that, I think, is sometimes interesting to kind of get a sense of, you know, what's really going on out there, too, so.
[00:34:14] Ray Latif: What's really going on and what's to come, so definitely he's one of these guys that will We'll be in touch with for how the industry continues to evolve and a great resource, like you guys said, for not just for our organization, but for any entrepreneurial brands out there trying to make it in this world that we call the food and beverage industry. Let's move on. We got, like I said, we, you know, we had a, we sat down for a segment with Martín Caballero. Again, senior staff reporter here at BevNET. Soda taxes, kombucha, it's all on the table. It's all some really interesting stuff. And again, Marty's written extensively about it, and he has some really good perspective on what's happening in both situations. And let's get to it. All right, I'm here with Martín Caballero, who's the senior staff reporter of BevNET. Marty, as we know him. How are you? Good to be here, Ray. How are you? Very good. Very good. And as we mentioned, this is a new segment that we're doing called TrendSpotter. We're looking at current news and events of the day and discussing them here on the podcast. And who better to talk about some of the issues of the day than Marty, who's been reporting like a madman over the last seven months since he joined Bebnet.
[00:35:20] Whole Foods: It's been busy.
[00:35:21] Ray Latif: It has been busy. And, you know, I wanted to talk to you today about some of the more notable news stories that are happening out there, and particularly the ones that you've been writing about. including what's going on with soda taxes. Certainly a timely topic given the amount of activity that we're seeing throughout the country on soda tax initiatives. Let's start from the beginning. When we say the phrase soda taxes, what are we talking about here?
[00:35:45] Whole Foods: Sure. Well, that's a good point. It is colloquially known as a soda tax, but what we're really talking about is a tax on sugar sweetened beverages or SSBs as they're referred to sometimes. So anything that includes added sugars to sweeten the drink. So this would obviously include sodas, but not include juices and some products that have natural sugar. So we're basically talking about anything that has added sugar in it would be considered under this soda tax. And important to note that it varies in some cases in various districts, but for the most part, diet drinks are accepted from this rule.
[00:36:20] Ray Latif: And it's up to a certain number of ounces per container, correct? Yes, that's right. Yeah.
[00:36:24] SPEAKER_??: Okay.
[00:36:24] Whole Foods: the taxes is levied per ounce. So typically it's between one Craven and Carol the higher end proposals that are closer to two cents.
[00:36:32] Ray Latif: Okay. And, you know, soda taxes as a concept really came into sort of widespread media coverage from New York City when Mayor Mike Bloomberg was in power. Take us through that. And, you know, what happened there that kind of had ramifications to what we're seeing today?
[00:36:51] Whole Foods: Sure. Well, I mean, the idea behind it was similar to what we're seeing today. It is basically a public health initiative. In 2016, the World Health Organization recommended that governments tax sugar-sweetened beverages significantly enough to lower consumption at least 20%. That was last year. But as you mentioned, in 2010 was when the New York City Soda tax was was under deliberation that was voted down that was defeated. But it's been interesting to see it sort of pick up steam again now. And obviously Mayor Bloomberg or former Mayor Bloomberg has been directing pretty significant resources to support efforts to pass tax initiatives. sort of across the country. So it's interesting to see, um, emerging from that initial discussion somewhat six, seven years later, sort of back in the public sphere and with still the same players with Bloomberg still playing a large role and, uh, the soda companies and, um, as represented by the American beverage association have been pretty active on the other side too. You know, you're seeing those, those same people are sort of continuing that fight in other districts and around the country now.
[00:37:55] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's Mike Bloomberg kind of using his weight as a billionaire and as a sort of influential politician or former politician who's still influential to fund these initiatives and to work with some non-government organizations and some sort of consumer watchdog groups to kind of initiate this kind of legislation across the country. One of the most notable initiatives that we've seen and have a dramatic effect on sales of sodas and other sweetened beverages is in Philadelphia. Sure. What's going on in Philadelphia and how is it sort of impacting sales of soda in that city? And what are some of the things that we're seeing in terms of the fallout from that tax?
[00:38:39] Whole Foods: Well, it's a great example of Philadelphia. You know, we've seen a soda tax also pass in Berkeley, California, but I think Philadelphia is a really interesting test case. Certainly a major American city with a pretty diverse population and a lot of interest at stake there. So I think based on who you ask, I think you would get different responses on how it's going so far. According to the city government, they're still projecting $46 million by the end of the year.
[00:39:03] Ray Latif: In terms of tax revenue?
[00:39:04] Whole Foods: In terms of tax revenue, exactly. On the sort of pro-tax side, they're pointing towards, you know, 2,000 kids are now in free quality pre-K, over 250 new jobs in early education, and over 4,500 public school students are enrolled and benefiting from these funds from the tax.
[00:39:21] Ray Latif: So when they initiated the tax, when this bill passed and sort of selling the bill to the public, it was about these taxes are going to fund education initiatives, particularly at the pre-K level.
[00:39:33] Whole Foods: Yes, that's right. And that's also been an interesting point of contention in these various proposals is where is the money going? There's been an effort, I think, to try to focus on that issue as opposed to money that would just go into a general fund and sort of not be earmarked for any specific purpose. Interestingly, in Seattle, where a soda tax is currently under discussion, it was recently brought up in a city council meeting that only about 14% of the projections for the revenue to come in were going to be directed towards public health. So it's kind of an interesting question where this is clearly a issue that is coming as a public health problem and so should not the funds that are generated from the tax go towards some public health initiatives. So that's a question that's being debated and it's a question of priorities and with that comes partisanship and politics and you know we've seen that it's typically been Democratic mayors that are sort of supporting this. So, you know, it involves a lot of different factors that are coming into play and certainly where the money goes is a huge, huge factor. And where the money doesn't go anymore.
[00:40:42] Ray Latif: Right. So in Philadelphia, what we're seeing and what we have seen are protests by these drivers, by these retailers, because people aren't buying the soda anymore. It's just too expensive. So people are going outside the city to actually buy the soda. You know, we've seen one major soda company sort of change their strategy in that city, and that's Pepsi. They're selling smaller sizes. They're, in some cases, pulling SKUs because people aren't buying those products.
[00:41:08] Whole Foods: Sure. Yeah, it definitely seems like there's been different effects on different SKUs and sizes, as you mentioned, some of the smaller sizes. doesn't seem to affect as much as clearly, you know, the two liter sizes and stuff like that. And yeah, and you know, Pepsi has been pretty upfront and pretty aggressive in their attitudes towards the tax. They blamed it for a 43% drop in business in the Philadelphia area and also as a sort of reason for laying off about 80 to 100 area employees. There's been a concerted effort from some small business owners to sort of petition the city government to make changes ahead of the planning for the 2018 budget. It's a real thing, you know, it is certainly affecting workers there and it's a pretty significant issue for them. It's also interesting to note that it sort of can also break down along sort of socioeconomic lines. We recently saw in Santa Fe where a proposal was defeated, which actually was one of the first proposals in recent time to be defeated. So big victory for the soda industry there. We saw that the vote broke down along the middle and lower income residents of the city were against the tax. The sort of upper income residents were supportive of the tax. So it sort of brings a lot of different divisions and sort of, it's a little bit more complex than maybe it appears at first glance.
[00:42:30] Ray Latif: Yeah. I mean, it's not just Santa Fe. You mentioned Berkeley and Berkeley's had the tax going for, the soda tax going for some time. And there've been some positive results, I guess, in terms of consumption of soda and sugary drinks as a result of the tax. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:42:44] Whole Foods: Yeah, there was a study, I believe it was the first study of a city where the soda tax were implemented and it found that, you know, implementing the tax, first of all, was feasible and it pretty much resulted in what they expected. There was a drop in sales for sugar-sweetened beverages. There was a slight increase in sale for non-taxed beverages.
[00:43:05] Ray Latif: Things like bottled water and juices and interestingly enough, juices, even though they do have a lot of naturally occurring sugar or not are exempt from this, from soda tax bills.
[00:43:16] Whole Foods: Right. And, you know, it's important to note that the study mentions, you know, that there's not a direct link established, but it's very suggestive that the reasons for this drop, which is close to 10% in sales, is because of these initiatives. And it's also important to note that they noticed that there wasn't really a large effect on consumers in terms of them paying more, in terms of, in terms of retailers losing significant amounts of money because of the tax. You know, it's an interesting case study, but again, I think Berkeley is a little bit of a different example. Just they were about, at the start, they consumed about 34%. of the average consumption rate for sugar-sweetened beverages. So this was already a location where, you know, it wasn't necessarily a huge issue.
[00:44:02] Ray Latif: Getting back to sort of the ABA, the American Beverage Association, I mean, they've spent millions, I mean, it's been reported millions and millions of dollars to try to defeat these proposals. I mean, what's their take on what soda taxes are doing to the economy and to their businesses?
[00:44:18] Whole Foods: Well, I think that certainly we mentioned the workers, you know, being very active and sort of opposing the tax and they've been sort of supporting those same sort of arguments that this is a punitive tax on workers. It's going to damage the economy. It's going to damage small businesses. Their idea is that it is sort of a regressive way of doing things. One executive called it shocking government intervention. So sort of it gets into issues of the nanny state and you know, how do you, your interpretations of those sorts of things. But certainly, I think that they've been pretty effective in framing it as, you know, an attack on local businesses. And I think that, you know, it's the health issue is a little bit, I think, not as a firm ground for them to stand on in terms of making arguments. But it seems like, you know, the economic argument and sort of, you know, as you mentioned, these sort of sticker shock that happens with some consumers is, is generating some traction. So, and I think, you know, as you mentioned, this is really a regional issue. I mean, we've seen soda taxes go on a national level in places like Mexico and the UK, but clearly I don't think that's going to be the case in the States here. We're going to have As these proposals come up, there's, I mentioned Seattle, Connecticut, recently discussed Massachusetts as well. Certain cities in these states. Some of them on a state level. Right. But yeah, as well as individual cities. So I think as individual proposals come up, they're going to be sort of applied and understood differently based on their location. For example, in Seattle, it was originally The proposal by the mayor was originally a two cent per ounce tax. After some negotiations and back and forth and some, you know, opposition, that's been lowered to a dollar seventy five or sorry, no one point one point seven five cents per ounce.
[00:45:59] Jon Landis: Yes.
[00:45:59] Whole Foods: Correct. But he also expanded it. So now it includes diet soda as well. So you're going to see negotiations, you're going to see different ranges of how much the exact tax is. And I think that's where the ABA certainly comes into play. And where can it exert its influence more effectively? You know, where is its message being heard? Santa Fe, for example, it definitely was heard and other places a little bit less. So there's not going to be a uniform way in which these taxes are applied or rolled out. It's going to be based on region, I think, for sure.
[00:46:32] Ray Latif: Interesting stuff, and it'll be really interesting to see how this all plays out. On a more emerging beverage kind of note, you also covered and continue to cover the fast-growing kombucha category, and you're in the midst of a multi-part series that you're writing of BevNET.com. about that category and what's happening and some of the pertinent issues that are going on as it relates to the growth of the business or the growth of the category and how it's affecting businesses that are participating in it. What you examined are sort of the issues that were related to the kombucha industry, in particular in this story, the clash between the hard science and unverified evidence regarding the fermentation process and health benefits of kombucha and how it's shaping the category in terms of consumers and producers. We should note for anyone who doesn't know what kombucha is, it's a fermented tea product or it's a fermented tea that is purported to have a lot of health benefits.
[00:47:29] Whole Foods: Well, I mean, as you know, there can be a pretty big gulf between what something can do for you and what can be verified multiple times over and over again that this will consistently do for something that would be a medicine, for example. One thing that is totally in agreement with scientists is that kombucha has some healthy bacterias, has probiotics, is rich in B vitamins. Naturally occurring. Exactly, naturally occurring. So the content and then sort of nutritional value, I think scientists can look at and agree upon. It's more when we get into some of the other things, as you mentioned, people have associated with everything from inflammation to actually a cancer treatment or even an AIDS treatment. So it's not always the brands I should mention, you know, this a lot of this is anecdotal kind of stuff where if you're a brand, maybe you're not going to be throwing it on your label, but certainly you wouldn't dissuade anyone from coming out and saying this really worked well for me. This will be explored further in the continuing series is that different brands have different approaches to this issue. You know, some are purely about, you know, this is just a tasty drink and sort of about flavor and pleasure and other ones are really emphasizing and going the health route and stuff like that. Rather than, you know, taking that at face value, I think it's important that we bring some fermentation scientists in the mix and some people who don't necessarily have a skin in the game to sort of give that objective analysis from a scientific perspective. And in the article, there's some interesting stuff about testing that was done. on kombucha cultures and how different environmental conditions can sort of affect the cultures and then obviously affect the end product. So I'd certainly wanted to inject a little bit of that perspective into the story, which I hope came across.
[00:49:21] Ray Latif: Certainly it did. And for those of you who want to read the story, it's of BevNET. It was published a couple of weeks ago, which would be on May 2nd. You can look forward. It's Issues in Kombucha, Part 1, Science v. Nature.
[00:49:33] Whole Foods: I think consensus is one of those things that is extremely tough to find in the kombucha category. I mean, the discussions that I've had with people have been, you know, been pretty broad. So I think in terms of what they can communicate, I think some are doing it in a kind of more subtle way. I mean, you think of health aid, not necessarily making a ton of claims on the packages, but it's called health aid. you know, revive, same kind of thing. It's, it's sort of being associated, but not necessarily making any of these sort of star claims. If you look at the GT's bottle, for example, it'll talk about the nutrition, the sort of nutrient value and content, polyphenols, B vitamins, stuff like that. So those things, I think those nutrient call outs in combination with sort of this overall presentation of, health, wellness, you know, natural tonic kind of thing is reflected a lot in sort of packaging and branding because you can't, you know, it's tough to make those, to make any more direct claims, you know, besides things like probiotics, B vitamins, and just talking about the actual values in there.
[00:50:41] Ray Latif: Yeah, and it's not just kombucha. It's every category in the beverage industry where you got to be really careful about making claims.
[00:50:47] Whole Foods: Yeah, you know, and I think one of the next issues that I'm sort of looking at in the next part in this series is alcohol and sugars and kombucha, which is obviously, you know, it was a major turning point for the industry when A large amount of kombuchas were pulled from the shelf back in 2010, I believe, for the alcohol content. So alcohol is certainly a big thing. And even that, you won't find consensus across industry. You'll find some people who will say that, you know, kombucha is, certainly it is a fermented beverage, but it is naturally have low alcohol, whereas others may, you know, have made the claim that, you know, you cannot make an authentic kombucha that would be considered a non-alcoholic beverage. It would be, you know, over 1.5%, which is the threshold for regulators to consider it an alcoholic beverage. So I think, you know, there's certainly lots of questions and lots of discussions that need to happen. And hopefully this series sort of open up those doors and explore that a little bit more.
[00:51:43] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's the kind of stuff that might make your head explode, but at least it's your head, not our listeners. You're helping everyone to kind of gradually understand what the heck is going on, because it is a tough web to untangle, for sure.
[00:51:57] of BevNET: Yes, I do it for the people. I'm still impressed that that guy came back to work after going on the road to a kombucha conference, which, you know, nothing... I mean, I think it's, first of all, amazing that the kombucha category and the KBI, Kombucha Brewers International, exists and has a convention, but I think it's one of those things where It is probably funny as someone who, you know, he's only been with us for what now? Seven, eight months. Seven, eight months. He probably didn't think he'd be at a kombucha festival or conference, excuse me, on his new job, but he's become, you know, crazy knowledgeable on the subject.
[00:52:38] Ray Latif: He's very proficient on it. And the cool thing to see is that, you know, you mentioned KBI. There's a reason that KBI, there's already a trade group and there's a pretty thriving trade group when it comes to kombuchas, because as we mentioned in our discussion, There's relatively no consensus at this point in terms of a lot of really important topics that affect the category and that will affect the players in the category. And KBI is, you know, kind of helping to bring some consensus. And, you know, from Artie's perspective, it was really cool to see his grasp of that category and the important topics in that category. Because it's really hard to get your head around. There's so many elements to it. It's a fast-growing category, and everyone wants a piece of it. But everyone's, I think, a little hesitant about certain aspects that they don't fully understand. And Marty's helping to untangle that, as I mentioned in his five-part series that he's undertaking. I mean, the other interesting topic that we talked about extensively was soda taxes. And from my perspective, what's happening in Philadelphia is that microcosm of what could happen, what's to come. And I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I think it's admirable that we're seeing health experts really trying to cut down on people's consumption of sugar and calories. On the other hand, you know, are SodaTex the right way to do it? And that's one of those debates that we can't fully answer and I don't know if anyone can answer it at this point. The divide is so thick and it's so divisive. It's such a divisive topic, but it's something we'll continue to follow.
[00:54:15] John Craven: I mean, I just see a whole lot of late stage capitalism happening with these soda companies losing out in a, in a, in a small, a relatively smaller market. Like they have the rest of the country and this is one market and they're really pushing back and laying people off and playing a game. You know, I think it's, it's kind of sickening to me.
[00:54:36] Ray Latif: Tell us how you really feel.
[00:54:39] of BevNET: As he's chugging from a two liter. No, I think it's a really complicated issue with a lot of different pros and cons. And I think it just is almost like a rabbit hole that you can go down as you unwind all the things that have got us to this point. And I'm in no way trying to defend like, you know, soda, or are you going to say go drink soda? I mean, I don't personally drink a lot of soda. So, I don't know. I mean, it's really interesting just to see that whole thing play out. I guess I sort of feel like for most of what we do here at BevNET across our different verticals, we're also kind of removed from it in a lot of ways that that's not an area. I mean, we're focused more on innovation. newer things, again, you know, kombucha, it's like you have two almost like polar opposite ends of the spectrum there. So I don't know, I don't really have some personal feeling on it. Kind of interested to see how it plays out.
[00:55:39] Ray Latif: Yeah. And again, you know, the impact of what beverages are going to take soda's place in places where there is a soda tax and, you know, how other categories are affected positively or negatively by these taxes. One category that I don't see as being affected are, you know, too much shots, right? Unless they're shots of sugar, I guess. I don't know. I don't see too much. Are there those on the market? Diabetes shots?
[00:56:04] of BevNET: I mean, I don't know. You do have to look at, not to go back on what I said, but I mean, you look at some of the soda tax, the moves kind of around it in smaller package sizes, it's almost like, You know, instead of selling you a 20-ounce soda, maybe we'll be sold a shrink-wrapped, you know, 10-pack of 2-ounce shots. You know, who knows?
[00:56:24] Ray Latif: Who knows? That could be kind of interesting, actually.
[00:56:26] of BevNET: If it was a 10-pack of 2-ounce Monfifo shots, sign me up.
[00:56:29] Ray Latif: Yeah, those are the shots I was referring to, juice shots in particular, which juice is not affected by almost any of these soda tax bills. Don't think so. No. That's my segue to our next segment. It was an attempt at least. Elevator Talk, as you may have heard from last week, is a new segment. It's based on Instagram stories where we meet with relatively early stage entrepreneurs and ask them a few questions about their business, who they are. what's on the horizon for their company and what they're kind of digging on in terms of the food and beverage industry. And our most recent addition is with Justine Monsul, who's the founder or co-founder and CEO of Monfifo. And yeah, let's talk to her.
[00:57:14] of BevNET: Check out these ingredients. Entrepreneurs, Instagram, a podcast, and an elevator. Imagine you just hopped on an elevator with your dream business partner and the ride's going to be short. They don't know you. So you're going to have to get right to the point because once you get to the top floor, that person's vapor. You know, once you get to that destination, they're gone. So we have created this idea, Elevator Talk, that allows you as an entrepreneur to answer three questions that you can use in that elevator ride. What's your name and what does your company do? 15 seconds, go.
[00:57:49] Tim Sperry: Hey, my name is Justine Monsul. I'm the founder of Monfifo, of organic cold-pressed beverages, and our mission is to make roots easy and accessible and on-the-go for the consumer. Being able to go to the supermarket and grab something that's healthy and good for you and feel good.
[00:58:03] of BevNET: Is there anything coming up that you're excited about?
[00:58:05] Tim Sperry: At Monfifo, we're super excited about releasing our latest product, which is the Turmeric Shot, helping people consume turmeric in a fun and easy way. And we also have some great beverages that are gonna be coming out as well, something a little larger, so you gotta keep an eye out for that.
[00:58:19] of BevNET: What have you been geeking out on besides your brand? Quick, 15 seconds, you're getting to that floor.
[00:58:22] Tim Sperry: So at Monfifo, we're super excited about building the brand out a little bit more, about creating some really cool 80s apparel and some dad hats, doing some yoga sessions with The Tim. So really building more of a community and connecting more with our customers as well.
[00:58:38] Ray Latif: I think if we had to guess how many times we've mentioned Monfifo in the last four or of BevNET podcasts, I'm guessing it's at least about 75 or 80.
[00:58:48] of BevNET: It's probably a lot. You know, and I think it's something that we jab each other inside the office a fair amount about these products that we talk about a lot. I guess, you know, if you make a good product, The Tim here is going to like it. And I think there's a fair number of us that are active on social media and there's certainly, you know, it's not like we're getting paid for publicity of these brands, but we just genuinely like them and want to see them succeed. Well, yeah, and I think we like them. You know, it's it's also to be clear, you know, we're liking them as folks who look for innovative and, you know, new things. And it's not necessarily a vote of. commercial viability or operational abilities of these companies. But I do think it's great that we have this format where we can showcase all the people that are starting up, you know, the people behind these products. Because, again, we have plenty of places to talk about the product. I think one of those things that for some of these brands will, I'm sure go on to be very successful and we'll probably look back at this thing and maybe they'll ask us to delete the Elevator Talk because it's like that weird, it's like the high school yearbook photo or something that, you know, you don't want anyone to see, but it is pretty neat just to see kind of how, you know, these things unfold for people. So yeah. Mike Schneider mentioned this when we were teeing up the Elevator Talk the first time, but we're certainly looking for other brands to do that with across all three of our verticals.
[01:00:24] Ray Latif: Yeah, and this is a invitation for anyone in the country, local or otherwise, we're based in the Boston area or in the world, in the universe. If you're in the Boston area at any given time, please come and see us at the office. We'd love to record a session with you. Elevator Talk is really open to anyone. And we just want to talk to you folks and get you to be part of the Instagram stories feed and as well as our podcast if we can.
[01:00:47] John Craven: But if you buy a ticket of BevNET Live right now, you jump to the head of the line.
[01:00:52] Ray Latif: All right. You went too far, Linus.
[01:00:54] of BevNET: Waiting for the, if you call in the next five minutes.
[01:00:57] Ray Latif: All right. Well, but no, I think you bring up a good point. BevNET Live is certainly a good opportunity to meet us. Absolutely. And to get us, I mean, and we're going to be doing... Or Project Nosh Live. And Project Nosh Live. Nosh Live or Burband Session. Burband Session. And we're going to be recording these Elevator Talk at all three events, which are coming up very fast. latest. When are they coming up?
[01:01:15] John Craven: June 12th is Nosh, 13th, 14th for Bev net live. And Thursday, the 15th is brew bound.
[01:01:22] of BevNET: So we're, and then the 16th is when your head explodes.
[01:01:25] John Craven: And that happened last week, actually.
[01:01:29] Ray Latif: I'd also want to note that we have two sort of early education kind of programs for Nosh Live and of BevNET Live.
[01:01:36] John Craven: Yeah, they're add-ons, you know.
[01:01:37] Ray Latif: Add-ons, right.
[01:01:38] John Craven: We get a lot of you earlier stage folks, and there's a lot of important stuff for you guys to learn and some important conversations for you to have that we try to help facilitate in this little add-on segment. Nosh Lives is on Sunday, June 11th. It's on Sunday. And BevNets is on Monday concurrent with Nosh Lives. So I'll be running around like a crazy person. But it's also a really nice icebreaker. If you're coming of BevNET Live, you come to the Beverage School. There's maybe 100 or so people there. We introduce you to a ton of different experts who are going to be there for the next two days as well. So you get to look around the room and say, OK, here are all the other earlier stage people. And then Tuesday when you show up and there's 500 people there, it's not so overwhelming.
[01:02:19] Ray Latif: And it's an opportunity to meet people like Tim Sperry. I mean, Tim Sperry has spoken at some of our education events before, and there will be folks like that at these events. Lots of them.
[01:02:29] John Craven: All sorts of guys. And if you're earlier stage, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. There's a lot of knowledge out there to draw upon. For sure. Well said.
[01:02:39] Ray Latif: All right, that concludes this edition of the BevNET podcast. Thanks so much for listening. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, ideas for future podcasts, please email them to us at podcast.BevNET.com. I'm just going to throw this out there too. If you want to on social media, you can reach us as well. How about on Instagram? Does Instagram work?
[01:02:55] of BevNET: How about Bev? You can direct message us on Instagram, whatever method you want.
[01:03:00] Ray Latif: Direct message BevNET Craven.
[01:03:02] of BevNET: Knock yourself out. We're format medium agnostic or something like that.
[01:03:07] Ray Latif: But don't Snapchat me. I deleted that. And Bev Trade with a Y. I'm Jon Landis. Jon Landis. All right. That was our personal plug. That was my personal plug anyway. You just got two followers, right? Well done. All right, everyone. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time.
