[00:00:03] Ray Latif: This is the BevNET Podcast. I'm Ray Latif. I'm here with Jon Landis, John Craven and Mike Schneider. In that order, I was looking at all of them. That's how it kind of came out. Not in order of importance, but anyway. The BevNET Podcast. This is the BevNET Podcast. This is episode 66-0. Today is June 2nd, the publication date that is. And we're really excited because it's finally getting sunny in the Boston area. I always feel like I lead off with that. You get a free weather report on you. You get a free weather report in the Boston area. So if you're deciding to make plans to come here, you're going to find out that it's- Can we get Al Caprillion to do the weather report?
[00:00:34] Jon Landis: I don't know what that is.
[00:00:34] Ray Latif: Hey, this is Al Caprillion with the weather report from ITV. If you're not from the New England area, you don't know what Landis is talking about, but that's a pretty good impression.
[00:00:42] John Craven: I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:00:43] Ray Latif: The other reason I'm really happy is that HealthAid Kombucha was on sale at Whole Foods and I bought a bunch. This is pretty darn good. I'm actually kind of losing my mind though because I'm drinking so much of this. Let's just set this up here. Ray's got three drinks for one podcast. He's doing a HealthAid and then he's going to do side road spritzle and then he's got like life support recovery shot for after. I don't know why he would eat a recovery shot after hanging out with Landis and Craven and Mike. Well, it has an apple flavor and I'm partial to apples and we'll go with that. It's funny that we're talking about health aid and side road spritzle. Side road spritzle, by the way, is a switchel that's carbonated. Great stuff. 10 years ago, not even a shot that these things would be on the shelf in mainstream stores. You wouldn't have seen this in a Target. Maybe you'd see it in a Whole Foods.
[00:01:26] Mike Schneider: You would get switchel in like your grandmother's refrigerator in New Hampshire. Yeah. Maybe.
[00:01:30] Ray Latif: Maybe. It's old school stuff. Maybe. But some of the guys were the, foundation of the Natural Products industry are the ones who are behind, I think, this transition that we're seeing into healthier, better-for-you drinks. And one of those guys is Bob Burke. Bob Burke is a well-known name in the Natural Products industry. He's the founder of Natural Products Consulting, which is a business that's been around about, I think he said 17 years or so. Prior to that, he worked for Stonyfield Farms, you know, really helped that brand get off to an amazing start and was eventually sold. And he's still, you know, kicking and really helping a lot of early to mid-stage to even large stage brands at this point get to where they need to be. Not only in the natural channel, but well beyond that as well. And he has the field manual.
[00:02:19] Jon Landis: It's essentially the Bible. Yes, he does. If you're in sales in this industry. And I think it's like a few thousand dollars, but, you know, really, really terrific value, especially for people who don't have the background selling in this industry. It's going to tell you everything you need to know. It's going to just be a companion for you. in your efforts, your sales efforts, understanding the language and really what you need to be doing to follow through with everything.
[00:02:44] Ray Latif: And you'll find out exactly what Landis means in this interview. I think, you know, we talked to Bob for about a half an hour and it's, he is as calm and cool and collected and knowledgeable a guy there is in this business. And yeah, you'll probably want to reach out to him after this. So let's roll tape. Alright, I'm here with the legendary Bob Burke of Natural Products Consulting. You know, you started Natural Products Consulting, the business, not necessarily the actual term or the actual work of Natural Products Consulting, correct?
[00:03:12] John Craven: I did. And thanks for the legendary, but when I hear that, I'm required to say, overrated and unemployed.
[00:03:19] Ray Latif: None of the above, Bob. None of the above. We have a lot of respect for you here in this office, and there's a lot of respect for you in the industry as a whole. I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. You've been consulting for about 20 years. And even before that, you were with some great businesses as well. Some of them that are still thriving right now. Before natural was trendy, you were knee-deep in what has become the Natural Products industry today.
[00:03:40] John Craven: It's been a fertile area with huge growth going on for decades now. And prior to consulting, I was with Stonyfield Farms for about 11 years, essentially running marketing and sales and joining them when they were under a million, up to about 50 million. Prior to that, I was with Colombo. Colombo is a regional yogurt company in Massachusetts. I had a traditional consumer packaged goods background doing product management, brand management. And it was a really good place to learn a lot, but wasn't as exciting. I was really looking for something a little more entrepreneurial. And interestingly, I was doing the evening MBA program at Babson College. And if you're familiar with those kinds of programs, you often work in groups. One of my good friends in my group knew I was restless looking around. His wife was Stonyfield's banker, knew they were looking for a marketing person, put us in touch. And I can remember living in Harvard Square, driving up to Wilton, New Hampshire, about an hour west of Manchester, driving up to the farm. So the actual office was a 1792 farmhouse with an 1852 barn attached that was their dry goods warehouse and an old carriage house that was a cooler. So charming from a distance, dilapidated up close.
[00:04:59] Ray Latif: Well, they're certainly not dilapidated right now. I mean, that brand is as well known and as big as any in the premium yogurt space and beyond that as well. I mean, They've really grown into something that's household name. And you were a big part of that. And you know, you've transferred some of those skills onto what you're doing today, working with a lot of young entrepreneurs as well, right?
[00:05:17] John Craven: Absolutely. What was really interesting for me is, if you know Gary Hirshberg, who's still chairman of Stonyfield, he's, you know, very charismatic, hugely successful, something of a rock star in the industry. I would join him at events like Social Venture Network. where he would give some kind of inspiring talk, be thronged by would-be entrepreneurs, and they would start pestering him with, how did you get into Whole Foods? How did you hire brokers? How did you do this and that? And he would turn to me and say, ask him. And I found out that I liked it. It was a little bit of teaching, a little bit of explaining, a little bit of giving back, lessons learned, et cetera. Given the amount of growth and interest in the area, there was just a big demand for that kind of experience. So Bob, you know, tell me, how did your consulting business evolve? You know, I have to say I'm probably one of the luckiest guys around because I started doing this at a time when natural and organic products were absolutely exploding. I had a fair amount of experience. I had a little bit of a pedigree coming from Stonyfield Farms when I started this, I honestly didn't know when the music was going to stop. So thankfully, I was busy from the get-go. One of my first clients was Annie's Homegrown. I'll always be grateful to them and Paul Nardone. the CEO for giving me my start, had a nice run with them. And what happened was I ended up evolving and sort of stumbling and bumbling into this beautiful virtuous circle of consulting, doing my book, The Natural Products Field Manual, which I did with my friend Rick McKelvey, and then starting seminars with John Maggiore for sales and Mike Bergmaier for financing, Jeff Grog. And John and I do an operations and supply chain. So we had this nice, as I said, virtuous circle of books, seminars, consulting, speaking, board roles that all sort of fed each other and was almost like this mini perpetual motion machine that generated new opportunities and really led to what I would say my biggest satisfaction here is the opportunity to learn new things. And so I sort of came up through marketing and sales, but Mike and I are in our 11th year of giving seminars and raising capital. I get involved in a lot of organizational things. On some boards I'm on, I'm chair of the comp committee or chair of the governance committee, which really does stretch me into areas that were outside of my original experience.
[00:07:41] Ray Latif: That's really interesting to hear, you know, when Gary turned to you and said, ask Bob, take us through some of that, you know, back in the day with Stonyfield Farms with Gary, what was it like kind of building a business where there wasn't a clear runway? There wasn't really a good understanding of what the industry is today and what it can do now. I mean, certainly Natural Products have grown. far beyond Whole Foods and the natural channel. What did you see in this marketplace that allowed you and the brand to grow beyond where it was?
[00:08:13] John Craven: Well, there's a few things. So like with most companies, so many of the values and so much of what drives the business are the founders. And in the case of Gary Hirshberg and Samuel Kamen, they both had a very strong interest in environmental issues, health of the planet, soil health, interest in this sort of burgeoning area of organic foods, biodynamic foods, natural foods, and thinking that there had to be a better way than what was the current availability of what was on the market at the time. And so we started a little bit of the background on Stonyfield Farms Kamen first came to Wilton, New Hampshire to teach at a Waldorf school there called the High Mowing School. and essentially was teaching agriculture. He also was doing workshops with local farmers, helping them understand about organic, the precepts of Rudolf Steiner, if you're familiar with that, both inspired Waldorf education, but also Demeter and biodynamics and all of that. And one of his messages was helping farmers understand how to add value on the farm, just not be offering commodities at market prices. And he had this nonprofit called the Rural Education Center. And Gary was on the board of that nonprofit. Like a lot of nonprofits, they ran out of money in six months. The board said, practice what you preach. Be sustainable. Be self-sufficient. Add value on the farm. They had about eight Jersey cows, milking the cows. And the original plan, lost in the mists of time, was to essentially make yogurt and sell it within a 25 mile radius of the school. I'm assuming they have a lot more Jersey cows now. A lot more Jersey cows, or they have a very strong partnership with Organic Valley. But it was the old one thing led to another. Samuel was making yogurt. They were selling it locally. People were raving about it. It took off. And when I arrived on the scene, they were under a million, not yet profitable. We had about eight SKUs of whole milk, cream on the top, yogurt, sweetened with honey. a beige package with brown printing that had this tree, cow, stone wall, which to Samuel was meant to represent the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, mineral kingdom. And people would say, what's that thumbprint on your package from four feet away? And so certainly have come a long way, but in starting to introduce this, it wasn't like say 10 years ago where you would go into Whole Foods, you'd pilot it in the natural channel. and at some point you start going into mass. We were a perishable dairy product, so limited shelf life. We were selling everywhere from the get-go. So places like Market Basket, Stop and Shop, along with the old Bread and Circus and Natural Food Independence and so on.
[00:11:18] Ray Latif: So you mentioned that Samuel had this approach of value add for farms and agriculture and looking for ways to kind of expand beyond just standard commodities. What do you think about this sort of pull versus push effect for the Natural Products and organic products industry? Is it that consumers, you know, over the last 20 years have really begun to adopt a healthier lifestyle? I mean, you know, 20 years ago, or did it really take sort of a kick in the pants for manufacturers to get out there and say, Hey, we have a better product and talk to retailers about why and sort of educate how much of the education came before the actual demand, I guess is what I'm asking.
[00:11:58] John Craven: So there's a few factors that were involved. So one is, I think among consumers, long before there were so many damned millennials, there were 78 million aging baby boomers who, you know, compared to the general population, might've been a little more educated, a little more affluent, famously self-absorbed, you know, in thinking about being more active as they age, strong interest in self-care. And I know this is obvious today, but just the whole, emergence of internet, having all the knowledge of the world in your pocket, you know, so you can read and learn about everything. If you have a health ailment, if you have something not being solved by conventional medicine, you can certainly find out what alternative things are out there. And along with that, the importance of the so-called diet-disease connection. So what I put in my body or put on my body has a direct correlation to wellness, longevity, disease avoidance, all those things really came into the forefront of people's thinking. And so there was always, I think, for the last 30 years or 40 years, you know, these little pockets of companies like Stonyfield Farms Amy's Kitchen and Nature's Path and Bob's Red Mill and others offering these products that were natural, wholesome, you know, long before organics was really a thing or certainly before. organic certification. And the large food companies, it wasn't so much they had blinders on, but the biggest barrier to entry for them was size and scale. So if you're a multi-billion dollar food company, you need a business to be in the hundreds of millions to move the needle. And so as long as these were small, burgeoning, nascent categories in businesses, they really couldn't touch it. The best they could do is stand by and watch.
[00:13:50] Ray Latif: Certainly though, the marketing had a big impact and continues to today. I mean, you look at a USDA organic seal or a non-GMO seal and people just are like, I want that product and not the one that doesn't have that. And at the same time, a lot of consumers don't know, you know, the reasons behind that seal or what goes into, you know, planning and processing to become an organic producer or a non-GMO producer. They just know or have this idea that these are better for you kinds of products.
[00:14:19] John Craven: Yes.
[00:14:20] Ray Latif: You know, how much of that really plays into what we, you know, what we're seeing today in the growth of the natural and organic food space?
[00:14:26] John Craven: Well, I think it's huge. I would say that among most consumers, there's probably still a fair amount of confusion on the difference between certified organic, verified non-GMO. and what was popularly known as all natural, which means a lot of different things to different people. But I think people really do seek those out. And I think today it's really almost like a floor level requirement for most companies, even if you're going straight into mass and conventional grocers and so on. Just the market has moved towards that in such a positive way.
[00:14:58] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's certainly a sustainable way of introducing your product to the market and keeping your brand relevant for sure. In terms of other sort of sustainable trends and ideas, what have you seen really stick and why?
[00:15:09] John Craven: Yeah, well, I think certainly along that vein are the so-called free-from categories. So things like gluten-free, grain-free, vegan, allergen-free, those all have long-term legs and longevity on the market. I think when you think back of what separates those categories that break out versus ones that are sort of fads and flame out are ones that, you know, really do offer a genuine benefit to the consumer, the consumer experience, you know, taste, texture, flavor, all those kinds of things. And then what seems to happen is it starts, you know, catching fire, whether it be on social media or mass media and really hits that proverbial tipping point where it sort of breaks out.
[00:15:56] Ray Latif: And a lot of these started out as niche ideas, niche concepts before they became mainstream concepts. As far as brands within those niche concepts in those spaces, I mean, which ones have really stood out for you as doing a great job of not just the communicating the outside of the packaging, but sort of really staying true to their ideals in terms of nutrition inside that package?
[00:16:20] John Craven: Sure. Well, a couple that come to mind right away and also, you know, companies that I've been involved with in some way over the years, One is Orgain, so founded by Dr. Andrew Abraham, who also happened to be a cancer survivor and was appalled at what sort of the industry was giving sick people. So at the time, things like Boost, Ensure and equivalent types of products. And he thought there had to be a better way. And so essentially came out with a much better product that was not only certified organics, but, you know, really offer the full spectrum of nutritional benefits and tasted great. And they've since evolved into powders and cold brew coffee and all these other categories, but always with a mind towards clean nutrition, super high quality ingredients and great taste. Another one is a saffron road originally started life as American halal. And as you know, halal is the, Islamic equivalent of kosher. So very strong values around, you know, humane treatment of animals, things around, you know, no antibiotics, no hormones. et cetera, that go into the products. And they came out with a whole family of products, again, true to the values of what's intrinsic to the brand, but also a great culinary experience, beautiful branding, great execution, very strong reception in the marketplace. And then, you know, locally, I'm friends with Spindrift. I think they've done a really great job in terms of coming out with a really good product and really respond to this whole trend around low sugar, no sugar. and where they might have started life as a soft drink with a fresh squeezed juice, with the explosion of no sugar, low sugar, they were really able to capitalize with their sparkling waters that, you know, far superior to anything else in the market.
[00:18:09] Ray Latif: Yeah, I mean, it's an outstanding product, great branding, and the focus of, hey, if we're going to say we're natural, we're going to mean it. Removing natural flavors and colors from their products is definitely, to me, the right step for the entire industry. And transparency is critical at this point. As you mentioned, you have the entire world in your pocket now. And you can really look up ingredient information and nutrition facts very, very quickly. And if you see something on a label that you don't know what it is, you can find out. That's where the whole concept of clean labels came from, right?
[00:18:41] John Craven: Absolutely. And companies are going so much further. Another company I'm involved with is King Arthur Flower. And they have on one of their items a way to trace that bag of flower back to the individual farm. Wow. So QR code, pictures of the farm, the farmer, the whole bit. Absolutely amazing.
[00:19:00] Ray Latif: Indeed, it is amazing. And it's interesting you mentioned King Arthur, because I wanted to ask you about the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. You've worked with a lot of brands. You've mentioned about four that are quite successful and will continue to be on their current trajectory. And I'm sure there's a lot of folks that you talk to, young, early stage entrepreneurs on the food and beverage side. who are like, hey, Bob, I want to be the next big thing. I want to be really insanely successful. What do I need to do to get there? Is there such a thing as keys to the kingdom for this business?
[00:19:34] John Craven: Would it sound self-serving if I said get great advice up front? From someone with experience and relationships in the industry?
[00:19:40] Ray Latif: I don't think that's self-serving at all. I think, you know, I think that's critical. At the same time, I mean, is there, you know, what other qualities do these brands and executives who run them have that have allowed them and enable them to be as successful as they are? I think that's probably the best. Those are the actual keys, you know, that I mentioned.
[00:19:59] John Craven: And so this may sound like a bit of a laundry list of motherhood virtues, right? Preach, preach, Bob. And so, you know, one of the things, one of my MOs as a consultant is I'll give anyone the time of day. And so I'll have a phone call, meet someone for coffee, see them at a show, hear what they're doing, offer suggestions, advice, introductions, what have you. And what I found is my sort of mental checklist starts with, is what they're doing truly innovative, highly differentiated, has a reason to be in the market, or as they meet, Retailers, brokers, distributors, investors, are they going to be construed as, you know, me too, redundant, just swapping sales from one pocket to another? The next sort of hurdle is, do they have rewarding and forgiving gross margins? Is it realistic, or is it back to the drawing board? Think about reformulating, resizing, tweaking, et cetera, retooling to make something that's going to be viable in the market. And then an all-purpose advice is piloting it in your backyard. Understand what does it take to sell off the shelf. See that there is real demand for it. Crack the code of what's the right price, how to merchandise, how to tell your story to the trade and consumer. It might be oversaid or overrated, but that whole quality of being scrappy, being gritty, being persistent is absolutely essential. Because no matter how good the idea, no matter how much funding, no matter how good the product is, you're going to have challenges and hurdles. And the people who go over them, around them, through them, is what separates the ones who just get overwhelmed.
[00:21:42] Ray Latif: Very, very well said. You do see a lot of entrepreneurs in the beverage space in particular, or I have at least. And the ones that are the hungriest, the ones who are 24-7, are the ones that end up succeeding. They just out-hustle everybody else.
[00:21:55] John Craven: Yeah, it's having that deep belief in what they're doing. A lot of people who entered this industry were not doing consumer market research and saying, OK, what's the biggest gap in the market that I'm going to exploit? Many of them were solving their own personal need. And so they or someone in their family had an issue. It wasn't being solved by the marketplace. And so they were inspired to go out and create it. Or they might have been traveling the world. Years ago, I worked with Oregon Chai. Heather Howitt, the founder, was trekking in Nepal, Tibet, et cetera, experienced Chai, nothing like it at home, came back, recreated it, and it just exploded.
[00:22:36] Ray Latif: Yeah, you hear that story pretty often actually about someone who was fighting an illness or, you know, had an illness in the family and wanted to create something that could help not just themselves or their family members, but a lot of different people. You know, certainly I remember hearing Janie Hoffman's story from Mama Chia. You know, she was fighting a bunch of different ailments and found that chia was sort of a miracle ingredient for her and she created a company out of it. certainly the leading brand in the packaged chia space at this point, which kind of leads me to another question about winning with an ingredient focus. Again, you've been in this business a long time, and today we see a lot of brands that, not a lot, but we see a number of brands that have a very, very specific ingredient focus. Temple Turmeric, for example, Mama Chia. Have you seen that as being a successful path? I mean, how difficult is it to win with a single ingredient focus?
[00:23:27] John Craven: Well, I think it's an added challenge because there's the potential of it being limiting on your business. And so like with most things you start with, you know, what's the ambition of the business? Is it to grow it, scale it, sell it? Is it a lifestyle thing? Are you doing it out of a deep rooted cause and purpose that you really believe in and you're going to, you know, do in the longterm. And so that's part of it. And, you know, using Mama Chia as an example, I had the privilege of working with Janie, worked with her on her business plan, startup scaling, and they've been terrifically successful and they've been able to use Chia in a lot of different products. So they weren't limited just to their original beverage product. But you look at someone like Sambosan, who's all about acai, temple turmeric, et cetera. It does have the potential of being limiting. where you can only take it so far. So if you are looking to scale, one of the qualities of companies that do successfully scale and become attractive at a high valuation to a buyer are those that can really extend across a number of different categories, show success and validation in a number of different classes of trade and channels that ultimately get the best values that exit.
[00:24:42] Ray Latif: But I guess in terms of today's consumer, they're looking for, as you mentioned earlier, really specific nutrition, but whole nutrition in that regard. You know, in terms of well-rounded nutrition and a full ingredient label, I guess, a full and clean ingredient label, you know, what are the ways that suppliers are sort of standing out from the pack in terms of added value, ingredient-wise and otherwise, in products?
[00:25:07] John Craven: Well, I think one thing is just sort of coming back to whole foods. So instead of doing things like lots of soy isolates in a product, you know, what is that whole food foundation in the product? A lot of it is a little bit of old ways, meaning the popularity of fermented products, whether they be lacto fermented vegetables or vinegar based products, certainly anything with probiotics and things that promote gut health. And again, these are things that have been consumed for thousands of years. And, you know, things like yogurt, of course, have been around for a long time, but these other products, you know, really bring the benefit of a whole food or a living food. Things like sprouted grains, et cetera, have been good because of their intrinsic nutrition, but also taste and the qualities of being real and authentic and not overly processed.
[00:25:57] Ray Latif: So real food, whole food sourcing. Absolutely. Yeah. So we've talked a lot about the sort of do's and the right things to do to be on that right path to success. What are some of the don'ts? What are some of the things that you've seen in your 30 years in this business?
[00:26:10] John Craven: I'm afraid we don't have enough time in today's session to cover all those, but some of the biggest and I guess top of mind, and these are not original, but famously people go shallow and wide too early. There's this need to scale. It might be to satisfy an investor. It might be because of minimum production runs on a perishable product. And there's this big land grab that goes on. And they sometimes do it before they figured out what does it take to sell off the shelf and So I can't tell you how many companies I've seen who have found themselves in 5,000 stores and the product just isn't selling and so then you have to do the hand-wringing and the deep dive of a Is it the package? Is it the price point? Is it the formula? Is it the size? And you start tweaking and refining and redoing, and it ends up costing a bloody fortune and has put a number of companies out of business. So that's a really big one. The other one is sometimes there's so many pitfalls around hiring the wrong people. as well as entering into relationships with service providers, whether it be brokers, consultants, bankers, others, where you don't really have a mutual understanding around expectations. And so getting that clarity of we're agreeing on the following objectives within a time frame, with deadlines, with resources available, And everybody's like, OK, we can do that. And then you hold people accountable. And so having that ambiguity has led to a lot of lost time, lost expenses. And then I'd be remiss if I left out, never get involved in a land war in Asia, and never go up against a Sicilian with death on the line.
[00:27:58] Ray Latif: Well said, well said for sure. You know, it's interesting you mentioned shallow and wide because that does feel like a pitfall and a stumbling block that we've seen with a lot of brands. I mean, you know, we hear from brands, oh, we're, you know, we're in 5,000 stores, you know, and it's like, okay, well, how are you going to service those 5,000 stores? And unless you have a ton of money and, you know, a huge marketing and sales force, that's going to be a pretty tough thing to,
[00:28:22] John Craven: You know, it's worth embellishing that just for another minute. Sure. I have seen companies whose biggest misfortune is being smitten by someone like Whole Foods, where they're at a show, Whole Foods will come by. And I love Whole Foods, right? I respect them enormously. But the category managers will get excited about the brand. They'll want to bring them national. The company's thrilled. They're over the moon. And then what ends up happening is they're in 11 regions of Whole Foods. They're in at least that many DCs at UNFI. They need to have a national broker. They've committed to trade programs. They're paying broker retainers. And Whole Foods, for all their many qualities, for a long time was highly decentralized, not terribly efficient as far as, you know, plussing out to the stores and cutting it into all the stores overnight. It might take six months or a year. From the time you get the yes until you fully realize all that and so it's really puts a big weight on companies and a big drain both Financially as well as management time focus and attention
[00:29:33] Ray Latif: So would your recommendation for someone who got a national deal with Whole Foods, I mean, would you be willing to say, hey, maybe this isn't a good idea for you, or you've got to take this? I mean, what does a company do? What does an entrepreneur do when they hear that?
[00:29:47] John Craven: So I guess the obvious and maybe simplistic answer is a lot of it depends on your resources. your experience, your bandwidth, team, et cetera. So if you're funded, if you have an experienced management team, you're working with a top tier national broker, and you can execute against it, then go for it. If you're limited resources, small team, like the opposite of all of the above, then it really takes some discipline to say, thank you so much. We're so flattered. We'd love to continue to build our relationship with you, but we'd like to do it in a more methodical and thoughtful fashion.
[00:30:26] Ray Latif: I'm going to put you on the spot. In terms of say funding, you mentioned funding and resources. You know, what does it take for an early stage brand to be able to service Whole Foods nationally? And Whole Foods only has like less than 500 stores, about 450 stores, but it's still a big undertaking considering that they're all over the country. You know, is it funding of a million dollars? Is it $2 million? What do you think they need to really effectively service Whole Foods nationally as an early stage brand?
[00:30:53] John Craven: The way I would slightly reframe it is to say, think about filling out national distribution in the natural channel. So just by virtue of going into Whole Foods and being in a large distributor like UNFI, you're going to have access to natural independents, people like NCG, the National Co-op Grocers Association, people like INFRA, the Independent Natural Food Association. and other small to medium chains. And I would say, with the normal variables of how many SKUs, how many categories, et cetera, probably 250,000 to 500,000 would be a reasonable amount.
[00:31:33] Ray Latif: OK. Well, so all is not lost then. I had a high number. You have a reasonable number.
[00:31:38] John Craven: Well, I've seen people bootstrap pretty far. And I've seen people squander millions of dollars. So I think 250,000 to 500,000. If you're focusing mainly on the natural channel, it tends to be a little less expensive, a little more forgiving, good match with the consumer, used to working with entrepreneurs and has served for a long time as sort of a incubator channel and so a little more manageable.
[00:32:05] Ray Latif: This has been great, Bob. I feel like it's really easy to talk to you and I think our listeners are really grasping and getting a ton of great information and advice from you and that kind of perspective is invaluable, certainly in this crazy industry that we're in. I do want to ask you about how this crazy industry is going to continue to unfold. And I know you must have some opinions on certain categories and brands that are primed to do well. But say I'm an angel investor with $500,000. And I see a bunch of brands that look like they're these hot brands and hot concepts. If you were advising this person, what would you say to them in terms of what's the next big breakout category or ingredient trend?
[00:32:50] John Craven: Well, there's probably a number of them, right? And so I would say right now, things in terms of categories that are emerging and interesting that we haven't already talked about are things like collagen, right? You know, that's really been becoming popular over the last year or two, sort of first with sort of bone broth, now showing up in protein products, showing up in beverages, having some legitimate benefits around gut health, joint health, skin health. And so that's sort of an interesting area. And then another one I would say that's emerging is around mushroom products. I've been involved with Excel Foods. One of their brands is Four Sigmatic. So they do a whole line of mushroom teas. These are rich with so-called adaptogens, boost your immune system, have a lot of proven health benefits, taste good. And you're starting to see those products show up in a lot of areas. But then I'd say related to that, which is really interesting, is just probably the biggest single dynamic that is changing the industry by the week. is the explosive growth of online e-commerce direct-to-consumer. And for someone like myself, who's been around for a while, the path to market has long been put stuff on a truck, send it to a distributor, they put it in their warehouse, they put it on a truck, they send it to a store, and the store makes 40%, the distributor makes 25, there's 15 or 20% in trade spending, 5% for a broker, really hard to make money. And the fact that so many people can do an end run around that, launch online, get that validation, get some cash flow going, get a sense of provenness that they're really onto something while they methodically roll out at retail has totally turned the game upside down. And I think also The growth in mainstream channels, which has been going on for decades, but really has stepped on the gas. So all the mainstream conventional supermarkets, Mass, Costco, and even now food service convenience stores and so on present so many opportunities to emerging companies and investors and others. when they look at, you know, how can this company win, I think is really important. And then a few other categories, I would say, you know, cashews seem to be the next, next nut, you know, in terms of creamy and different and not almonds and not coconut. Likewise, I would say cauliflower is the new beet, which is the new kale. And so you're seeing that. As long as it's roasted and covered in butter, right? Or buffalo wing sauce. But actually, I don't know if you've seen that there's probably two or three people doing pizza crusts with cauliflower. I have seen that, yeah. So, you know, pretty interesting. And, you know, when you're out, I mean, a lot of these things, when you asked earlier about where these trends come from, besides the inspiration of entrepreneurs, A lot of times you'll see things on menus and so it might be chefs or it might be other folks who are coming up with inventive ideas. It starts to take hold and then it gets expressed in a branded product sold at retail.
[00:36:08] Ray Latif: Great stuff. So if you're an entrepreneur out there with a bone broth infused with collagen, cauliflower, and mushrooms, you've got a winning idea, especially if you sell it online. You heard it here first. All right. You know, you touched on, and this is the last thing, because I know we're running out of time. You know, you touched on innovation kind of being spearheaded and grown from sort of from restaurants and the on-premise channel, cauliflower being a good example. We sell a lot of cauliflower and we have for a long time in restaurants and you're like, You know, why am I eating cauliflower? And it's a relatively inexpensive, high margin for the restaurant for sure. But then, you know, it's, it's got some nutritional value to it. It's a pretty, it can be tasty. At the same time, we see all these concepts and we see new ideas coming out all the time, but are they truly innovative? I mean, are they, you know, have we reached a sort of saturation point in terms of innovation? What do you think about that? You know, is it, is it, is it really about, the ingredient being the innovative, the lead innovative concept in a brand? Or is there a new processing method that really hasn't been fully vetted, hasn't been fully fleshed out that you think could have a big impact on the industry?
[00:37:11] John Craven: Yeah, so I would say my simple answer is I don't think there's any ceiling on innovation. And whether it's focusing on the next next thing, so moringa or matcha or, you know, plenty of other sort of it ingredients that are you know, coming into people's awareness, or it's just a different combination of things that have been around forever. I mean, think of kind bars, right? It's nuts. It's fruit. It might be something that binds them together. 20 years ago, if you asked me about the bar category, I would have said, Forget it. It's oversaturated, it's mature, it's overcrowded, you know, blah, blah, blah. And since then, kind bar, quest bar, the perfect bar, Lara bar, the pro bar, think thin, and so on and so on and so on. And so you can see that kind of across the board. There's always room for innovation. and I don't think we're going to get to a point where we've exhausted everything and not the least of which new findings that come out about, you know, I mean, I grew up in an era where fat was bad, right? And now we've seen this redemption of saturated fat, whole fats. So, whether it's from coconuts or almonds or whether, you know, butter is good. you know, it's just things with new research and new findings and new understandings, it's totally transforming our thinking of things.
[00:38:36] Ray Latif: Yeah, and the innovation seems to be, that seems to be sticking is one that addresses a certain need state and you're in, you know, you mentioned bars, certainly a convenient way of getting nutrition and nutritional value into your system. And, you know, I guess the innovative concepts that are the most convenient are the ones that are really going to have a lot of traction.
[00:38:54] John Craven: Absolutely. I mean, if you break it down, there's always going to be a need for something portable, convenient, handheld, you know, better than a Snickers bar, you know? And as someone like myself who travels a lot, I always have a couple of bars in my bag and I can see that, you know, being around for a long time. Yeah, for sure.
[00:39:15] Ray Latif: Bob, tremendous stuff. Really appreciate you taking the time and speaking with us and speaking with our listeners. I mean, it really means a lot to me. And I think, you know, Bob, I'm going to toot Bob's horn a little bit here. You should, you know, he mentioned that, you know, he's willing to talk to anyone. If you have an opportunity to reach out to him, you should, because he's a great resource and a great guy. So thanks so much for being with us, Bob.
[00:39:35] John Craven: Thanks again for having me.
[00:39:38] Ray Latif: The last thing I asked Bob was about innovation. And I, I'm actually still kind of curious about this. You know, I feel like when, and maybe this is just from being at BevNET for about six years, I feel like I've seen a lot. I feel like I've seen so much quote unquote innovation. And it's gotten to a point where I constantly wonder what's next. Is there something that's going to be next? And Bob had a great point. He's like, look, you know, there's no ceiling for innovation. There's always going to be something new. There's always going to be something that people want to really push the envelope on. And maybe it's just me being slightly jaded having done this for six years. Not you. Yeah. But I was really pumped up by what he talked about and talking about the continued evolution of this business and food and beverage and maybe really excited to see what's next. And if you're out there and listening and you have an innovative beverage and want some advice on how to scale, Bob might be the right person to talk to.
[00:40:32] Mike Schneider: Yeah, he's definitely a great resource, I think, for anyone who's trying to get in the space or already has started their company. You know, he also puts on his own seminars that are, you know, really just a wealth of knowledge. Definitely someone to get in touch with.
[00:40:48] Ray Latif: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think we saw a little bit of his touch, I guess, at the Sweets and Snacks Expo, which took place last week in Chicago, Illinois. Jon Landis, you were there in full force. Yes.
[00:41:01] Jon Landis: Yeah, I was there for a day. It was a lot of fun.
[00:41:03] Ray Latif: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Jon Landis: I love that show. It's only the second time I've been there. I went three or four years ago.
[00:41:09] Ray Latif: And as I think you alluded to last week, you know, the Sweets and Snacks Expo doesn't sound like a very healthy conference. It sounds like a... Sounds like Halloween. It sounds like Halloween. And it kind of looks like Halloween from all the samples you brought back.
[00:41:22] Jon Landis: But interestingly... There is that. There is that aspect to it. I mean, it is the National Confectioners Association who's the host of the event. And I think historically, traditionally, it's been a candy show, but we're seeing a lot of that open up. We're seeing healthier candy out there and we're seeing snacks that are more like candy than they're anything else.
[00:41:44] Ray Latif: And the old school stuff is still there, too. And thank you very much, because I haven't had Lemonhead since I was six years old. And thanks Jon Landis, I got to have those again.
[00:41:51] Jon Landis: It's so funny.
[00:41:52] Mike Schneider: They're just as bad now.
[00:41:53] Jon Landis: Every time someone comes back from this show, there's some kind of old school traditional candy. I remember a few years ago, I brought back a bunch of Necco wafers. And some people really loved them. And God saved their soul.
[00:42:08] Mike Schneider: Surprised you're not like missing a few teeth after that show.
[00:42:10] Jon Landis: Yeah, like a couple weeks Our huge like traditional hit for a handful of people and then nobody else seems to really do this kind of ruin my segue though because I was talking about how If you do walk the floor there is an entire section that's just natural better for you products It's all it's it's a lot of earlier stage brands and a lot of the the more established ones as well and it's just in the back of the room and everything's kind of on top of each other there's a lot of booths back there and I think it's really a little bit more of how it should be because we're all used to the Natural Products expos that are sprawling with all this stuff. And if you go into the grocery store, they're a subset. And this is more reflective of where society is, where consumers are, with all of this being a subset, but still
[00:43:09] Ray Latif: prevalent at the same time Organic and natural candy and snacks are emerging. They're all growing quickly. Yeah, and that's something you guys talk about you guys meaning you Project Nosh editor Carol Ortenberg and project Nosh reporter Megan McGinnis in this next segment where you kind of give a recap of the show Yep, and some of the interesting things that you saw there exactly.
[00:43:31] Jon Landis: Let's do it. Let's do it.
[00:43:32] SPEAKER_??: I
[00:43:33] Jon Landis: All right, everybody. I am here in the Project Nosh cave with our editor, Carol Ortenberg and Meagan reporter, Megan McGinnis. And thank you for inviting me into your wonderful homey office.
[00:43:47] Bob Burke: Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's a cave, maybe a nest. I personally like to refer to it as the Zen Den.
[00:43:53] Jon Landis: The Zen Den. Okay. The Project Nosh Zen Den.
[00:43:56] Bob Burke: It's lovely. Cave kind of sounds dark, gloomy.
[00:43:59] Jon Landis: The three of us were recently in Chicago for the Sweets and Snacks show, which I think is a really fun show. It's really wholesome and there's a lot of great people there and a lot of great brands.
[00:44:11] Bob Burke: Yeah, it's great. You get an awesome sugar high. But I also heard from a lot of brands that they felt it was a really strong show this year. There were a lot of buyers and they felt It was really impactful to the bottom line and the direction that their company would be taking in 2017.
[00:44:25] Jon Landis: I mean, and it makes sense a little bit for these natural brands too, because it's more buyers than just the natural channel and maybe like the major club channel that goes to the Natural Products show. This is more conventional and grocery.
[00:44:41] Stonyfield Farms: And this actually was their 20th anniversary show. And I was talking to a few people from the National Confectioners Association and they said that they beat all their records for both attendance and just exhibitors. So this was the biggest one that they've had yet.
[00:44:53] Jon Landis: Awesome. And I know, Megan, you were specifically reporting on something that the NCA is very involved in. There was a lot of press going out about it. Tell us a little bit about what, you know, Big Candy is facing.
[00:45:06] Stonyfield Farms: Yeah, so anyone who was at the show saw tons of banners and koozies all talking about this commitment. It was the NCA has a partnership now with the Partnership for a Healthier America and their commitment really focuses on providing consumers with more information, options, and support. Those are the three pillars of it. So specifically, starting in 2022, half of the candy sold by these committed brands, which are some of the biggest names in candy, will come only in sizes that contain 200 calories or less per pack. And then they've also committed to printing all of that calorie information on the front of their packaging. So the idea behind it is that candy is always a treat, which is even the name of their new website, which is where they're going to host all this information. Knowing what we know about consumers, they value honesty, they value transparency, and they're not going to stop eating sweets. The NCA president, John Downs, actually told me during the show that 2% of the daily caloric intake for the average American is candy. And that's not an excessive amount by any means, but it's a daily indulgence that people are making a point to have. So I think the thought is that consumers will, in theory, be more likely to eat sweets that align with these values and that are embracing the moderation that consumers are already using when they're eating these treats.
[00:46:30] Bob Burke: I think that's a great preview. And to learn more about this initiative, definitely check out Project Nosh. and read Megan's story all about the initiative.
[00:46:39] Jon Landis: And I think it makes a lot of sense, too. I mean, we're in our natural bubble, right? But when you scale it back and you look at everything as a whole, a lot of these companies struggle with trying to create natural formulas for these products, but they still embrace the values of what it's all about. And this is a way that some of these companies can entice consumers in a good, wholesome way and still make their companies appear to be trying and pushing and caring.
[00:47:10] Bob Burke: And it doesn't mean that every natural candy product is good for you or, you know, low calorie or low sugar. So I think the flip side will be to see how natural candy companies respond to this and figure out, Do they need to embrace the same transparency on their packaging as well?
[00:47:27] Jon Landis: Well, let's talk a little bit about some of the natural candy that we saw. And I think the overall trend we saw was everything was soft and chewy and gummy. There was a lot of that stuff, both from the natural and the big CPG side. What were some of the ones that you guys saw that you liked?
[00:47:43] Bob Burke: Yeah, I was actually talking to the team from Lolly and Pops, which is a really awesome candy retail experience. And they said gummy is, you know, one of the hottest trends they're seeing in products in their stores. While, you know, not necessarily featured at the show, it certainly was talked a lot about at the show that Sugarfina and Press Juicery came out with a green juice gummy. So all the things about a green juice, you know, kale and bright green bears, they come in cute little shots or kind of juice bottles. I think it's kind of that tongue-in-cheek idea of like, is it good for me? Is it not really good for me? That people think about both candy as well as some juices on the market.
[00:48:24] Jon Landis: Yeah. I mean, that's going to be a pretty interesting use occasion or consumer type that's going to go after a green juice gummy, but you know what? It's each their own, right?
[00:48:33] Bob Burke: Yeah. And, and Sugarfina certainly knows what it's doing with gummies. You know, last year they came out with their whispering angel, rosé gummy bear, and they had over a 14,000 person waiting list. So I think they're really one of the trend leaders in the gummy world. And others are just, you know, trying to see how else you can push the limit in, in gummy-tization.
[00:48:57] Stonyfield Farms: Yeah. I mean, we even saw at the show, Lovely Candies came out with Honey Gummy Bears, which is to try to moderate that glycemic spike for people. But they also were really concerned about keeping that chew rather than, or the, the squishiness of what a gummy is instead of the texture that would go along with like a fruit chew, like a, even not a Nosh brand, but like a Starburst or something. They wanted to keep the softness of it. Cause people who like gummies and crave gummies like that texture of it.
[00:49:25] Bob Burke: There's like a fine line between pushing the envelope in what you do in flavor or cute shapes, whether it's sloths or, you know, little hearts, and still adhering to that nostalgia that you have when you ate like a gummy bear when you were like five years old.
[00:49:42] Stonyfield Farms: Or 25.
[00:49:46] Jon Landis: And I think to your point, Carol, a lot of this stuff is, you know, if you're going to eat it, then should it be healthy, right? Like you want it to be true to the texture and flavors that you know and grew up with and those weren't healthy. So can you get that in a healthy? And if he did, would you even want it? Some of it is indulgence, right? And I know some of the big CPG candy companies are doing some organic gummies as well.
[00:50:11] Stonyfield Farms: So yeah, we're also seeing that with some of these larger candy companies as well. Ferrero, which is one of the leaders in gummies, launched Black Forest Organic line, and they have seen a lot of success with it. And they're the same maker as Trolli Gummies. So you're seeing them do kind of embracing this more natural side of things.
[00:50:32] Jon Landis: And it wasn't just gummies, you know, some of the more interesting things that we saw, I thought had nothing to do with the Natural Products, but just the packaging that the products were in. We saw a few major redesigns and a number of minor ones that are all making smaller, different tweaks to make their product appeal a little bit more or move off the shelf a little quicker. Speaking to the big ones, Carol, what were some of the redesigns you saw at the show?
[00:50:59] Bob Burke: Yeah, and I think some of these redesigns are coming in part because what a snack is and what a candy is more complex. It's a green juice gummy bear. Like how do you describe that on your packaging? And companies aren't afraid to iterate and change up their packaging and figure out how to best convey to consumers what their product is. I think one of the biggest redesigns that everyone was talking about was Nourish Snacks. They have a new look. And as someone said to me, you're just going to look cool walking down the street carrying that bag. Like it's, you know, very different. It's very geometric, very bold colors, matte finish. And it's certainly completely different than anything else you see on the shelf. They devoted a lot of time. They even developed new techniques and technologies around printing plates to make sure they got exactly what they wanted. I love that the romance copy on the back of the bag. kind of changes depending on the product. It doesn't take itself too seriously and it's pretty whimsical and even that copy is very, you know, stylized and embracing really unique fonts.
[00:52:05] Jon Landis: I mean, it just looks, the geometric design, it looks like something that you can put on your desk and keep there. And, you know, if you don't like a cluttered desk and you like everything really nice and clean, like it can just sit there and kind of be a piece of, you know, what you have. Art. Yeah, no. Edible art on your desk. I mean, I think that that's what, you know, good packaging needs to go for, especially with a product like this, that's a multi-serve package. that you reach into multiple times and you have it for a few days. It's got to be something that you're comfortable associating yourself with. Like you said, looking cool walking down the street holding it.
[00:52:39] Bob Burke: Yeah, I mean, and along with the redesign, you know, there are some other things that they're putting into play, which is focusing on one type of sort of sweet snack right now. It's a little bite. They're going to be expanding their line to savory in the future. And also they previously had focused a lot on direct-to-consumer online sales. Instead, they're turning to Amazon to fulfill those orders and really focusing in on their retail brick-and-mortar strategy.
[00:53:08] Jon Landis: And some of the smaller tweaks that we saw in packaging, I was a big fan of. Road Crew Crunch made some really small changes to put their product photography more at the center of the package to give it a little bit more personality. It's the type of thing that when you put them side by side, you can very clearly see what the differences are. If you just looked at it and had seen the other package or maybe a month ago, you might not even notice that there was anything different, but it looks a little bit more alluring. And of course, hippies, who I'm a personally a big fan of. I love the direction that they're going because they came out with this. one dimensional facing package with just the little chickpea smile with the lick, you know, but now they have a little product photography. They have some more color that you can tell the difference between the flavors very easily. And I think it's going to be a, you know, these small changes have big implications for a brand like that.
[00:54:02] Bob Burke: Yeah. And one really large change that I saw is somewhat as a trend was companies that had been around for 20, 30 years saying we're a family owned brand, or we've been around this long. We want to be around another 20, 30 years. We can't stick with the same packaging we always had, and we need to embrace this new modern consumer. So snack club, which has a very traditional sort of, I describe it as a packaging you might see in like an airport or in a deli is, you know, doing a complete 360 and embracing this very modern white look, which is pops of color. The amount of consumer research they did to get this packaging. was amazing and I think that speaks to something that any brand should undertake when they're doing a redesign, which is talk to your consumers. Make sure this is resonating with them and you're on the right path because sometimes when you're in a bubble of your office, it's really easy to think you have an awesome idea, but you got to get it out there even if you just take it to your demo tables and say like, Hey, we're thinking of changing this packaging. What do you guys think? Bring it to a farmer's market, stuff like that. Get other people's opinions.
[00:55:07] Jon Landis: And speaking of resonating with consumers, these trade shows are often an indicator as to what the companies and brands themselves think will be trends for the future. And it seems like Spicy is really in with snacking, isn't it?
[00:55:23] Stonyfield Farms: Oh yeah, people are definitely into more heat in their snacks and in unexpected places too. I think you're seeing it both in the salty and sweet space.
[00:55:33] Bob Burke: Yeah, I mean, and of course we've been saying sriracha as a popular flavor for a long time, but I think a lot of these brands are embracing more global flavors or as Megan said, they're blurring the lines between sweet, spicy and salty and trying to combine them all together.
[00:55:51] Jon Landis: And of course, there's plays like Little Bird that, you know, really are all in on that with their own syrups that have multiple purposes, but really, really unique flavor experience where it goes sweet and then hot and then sweet and then hot. And I don't know how that happens. Apparently, the big candy companies are going on that too, because I tried this Hot Heads from Warheads, and it was a sour, then sweet, then spicy gummy worm, and that's exactly what it was. It was like a sour gummy worm, and then the sour wears off, and then all of a sudden, you're left with this tingling heat in your mouth. It's so weird, but even the NCA recognizes it, right? Because Nerds won the product?
[00:56:35] Stonyfield Farms: So Nerds actually won one of the top awards at the show for an innovative product. And that was for all the vendors at the show to be able to apply to. And that was their mango chili flavor. And it starts really sweet, like what you would expect from a Nerd, but the more you eat, the more you feel that heat builds up at the end with the finish. So yeah, they're really trying to embrace different flavors. I think they had a guava one as well that kind of did a sweet and spicy.
[00:57:02] Bob Burke: I mean, I don't know about you guys, but when I was growing up, nerds were like grape. Now it's like guava and mango chili.
[00:57:10] Jon Landis: Well, I think it goes to show where the NCAA sees things heading, the overall trend of spice, and then the large brands and the household names are the ones actually leading the way. and being recognized as such. We saw a lot of innovation at that show and whether or not mango chili nerds were the most innovative thing is up for debate. It's a subjective opinion, but nonetheless, that's what we ended up with. The last thing that I think we noticed a lot of was more taking larger dishes and snackifying them.
[00:57:46] Bob Burke: Yes, I love the word snackifying, snackification.
[00:57:51] Stonyfield Farms: Signs we need in this office.
[00:57:54] Bob Burke: So yeah, things that are like super popular dishes, right? Everybody loves a meat and cheese plate at a restaurant, charcuterie, nice cheese. Chef's Cut's like, let's take that, make it on the go. So it's a little portable cup. It's got some cheese crisps in it, as well as jerky. I'll fully admit, I was skeptical. And as soon as I tried one, it was completely addictive. And it did give me that same vibe of like kind of funky cheese and cured meats. which I loved and, and along the lines of, you know, snackifying meat dishes, Farmer's Pantry was doing these really cool jerky bags that sort of are divided into two sections. One is a jerky and the other one's kind of like a mix-in that you add to the jerky. So they had chicken and waffles, which was a chicken jerky with little almost Stroopwafel-esque cookies that were maple flavored, as well as I remember they had a steak and fries. So a beef jerky. with sort of potato shoestrings. Again, I was skeptical, should have never been skeptical. It was amazing, especially considering Farmer's Pantry has done this for a bit now. They've had their cornbread crisps, you know, cornbread popular side dish in the South. Nobody's really turned it into a snack. They turned it into a sort of take on a pita chip with cornbread and snackified cornbread already. So I should have trusted them.
[00:59:21] Jon Landis: And we've seen those dual pocket pouches before, but just about everybody who's come out with them was like a meat and a trail mix.
[00:59:28] Bob Burke: Yeah, exactly.
[00:59:29] Jon Landis: And now this is a really great idea to say, well, we have these dishes that are in our culture that have two things that on the surface seem like they should clash, but everyone loves it when they go together. Let's snackify it.
[00:59:43] Stonyfield Farms: And you're seeing that in the veggie space too. It's not just with the meat snacks and jerkies. There was a new brands at the show called Portobella and they did, they're bringing mushrooms, which have been used in dinner dishes and really just been brought to the center of the plate more and more frequently with burgers and things like that. But they're making it into a chip now. And they are patenting how they're doing it. They wouldn't go into it, but they're not baked or fried, but they are still really crispy. I know. I have no idea how it's done.
[01:00:13] Bob Burke: Anyone want to send us a tip? How do you make mushroom chips?
[01:00:17] Stonyfield Farms: They were so good and they kept the shape of the mushroom, which I thought was the coolest part because you could really see the slices and that's what makes it. I don't know. You want to feel like you're eating a vegetable. I feel like if I'm going to be eating that chip, but it didn't taste like a vegetable per se.
[01:00:33] Bob Burke: They also had great flavors like bacon guacamole, which I think is probably embracing, you know, I haven't seen a lot of people bringing avocado to the snack world. Bacon, sure. But you know, that mashup seems classic to me.
[01:00:47] Jon Landis: Well, I had a lot of fun at that show. I wish I could have gone for more than just a single day, but next year, I guess. Next year.
[01:00:53] Stonyfield Farms: Yeah. We did have a really great moment together, John, where we both ate bugs. So that was, that was good. At least we had that.
[01:01:00] Jon Landis: Well, you had a chocolate covered grasshopper, which I consider like, you know. A gateway bug? Yeah, a gateway bug.
[01:01:06] Stonyfield Farms: I think that's the end of my bug eating career.
[01:01:08] Jon Landis: I had one of those mealworms, but it was.
[01:01:11] Stonyfield Farms: The sour ones.
[01:01:12] Jon Landis: It was coated in like the sour,
[01:01:14] Bob Burke: There we go.
[01:01:15] Jon Landis: And that was, that was too much. I could not, I had to leave immediately after I ate that. It wasn't right. All right.
[01:01:24] Bob Burke: New take on the gummy worm.
[01:01:25] Jon Landis: New take on, yeah. Keep those away from me, please. Well, thanks for doing this recap with me. I had a lot of fun in Chicago and we'll see you guys next time.
[01:01:35] Stonyfield Farms: Thanks, John. Thanks.
[01:01:38] Ray Latif: I like the idea of putting calories on the front of a candy package, but I really wonder if that's such a good idea. I mean, is it really a good idea to put like 100 calories on candy or just like let people kind of, you know, still think that they might be eating less?
[01:01:57] Jon Landis: I think that's probably the impetus of keeping everything to 200 calories or less as well, which is kind of standardizing the size of these portions. Although I will say, you know, eating some of the snacks that we brought back, for example, we got these sugar wafers and I didn't realize that there's like 50 calories per wafer. Seems like. And you ate 75 of them.
[01:02:19] Mike Schneider: That explains a few things.
[01:02:20] Jon Landis: Then you eat like five or six and you realize how many calories you just consumed. And I don't think that they're going to make a package with just four wafers.
[01:02:27] Ray Latif: That just seems silly. High margin. I like the way you phrase that. That just seems silly.
[01:02:34] John Craven: Four wafers. How can you eat only four? Pack of sadness.
[01:02:37] Ray Latif: Yeah. Disgusted and curious at the same time at the idea of a dehydrated mushroom as a snack or whatever, however they made it. But who knows, maybe they'll make a Believe Retime.
[01:02:50] Jon Landis: I didn't get to try those, but they, I mean, the packaging looks really cool. It's definitely what you were talking about before being innovative. I think some of the best ideas tend to be the really simple ones where it's like, why didn't I think of that? And it's just like, duh, no brainer. And that's, to me, that's, that's kind of falls in that category. Yeah. No brainer. Mushroom snack. Sure.
[01:03:11] Ray Latif: Yum. Yum. Speaking of mushrooms. Actually, do they grow mushrooms at farms?
[01:03:17] Jon Landis: Or is it still foraged? Uh, you can, you can grow mushrooms, but you don't need a farm. You just need like a closet.
[01:03:26] Ray Latif: Have you been in his office lately?
[01:03:28] Mike Schneider: He's growing mushrooms in there right now.
[01:03:30] Ray Latif: Sometimes, you know, this is a good point here. I'm just going to take a second here. I often get emails from Joe and Josh, our crack team who edits and engineers these podcasts. And they often ask me, should we take out this drug reference? Should we take out this drug reference? And oftentimes I don't know how to answer that, but you know, we'll just run with it. We'll let this one go for now. Sure. But anyway, I mentioned farms because we do an Elevator Talk this week with a brand called Farmer Willie's. So Jon Landis, what's Farmer Willie's all about?
[01:04:00] Jon Landis: It's a couple of guys that started this fermented Ginger Beer. They're canning it. I think it's like 4.5% or so. Not exactly certain, but it's not a flavored malt beverage. It's an authentic fermented ginger product that they're putting in cans. You know, refreshing summertime drink.
[01:04:19] Ray Latif: Refreshing summertime drink. I love it already. And we got him in the elevator. We got him in the elevator. Let's do it.
[01:04:29] Mike Schneider: Welcome to Elevator Talk, where we put an entrepreneur in the elevator with their dream investor for 45 seconds. We asked three questions. Who are you and what does your company do? So I'm Niko Enriquez. I'm one of the co-founders of Farmer Willie's Craft Ginger Beer. Started with my best friend and launched it a year and a half ago. What's coming up next? So we just launched these beautiful, beautiful nine packs designed by our designer Juliette from RISD. They're freaking dope because you can just bring them to the beach, grab and go, and it has a recipe for a tequila Willie on the bottom. What have you been geeking out on besides your brand? There's a new brewery called OEC out of Connecticut that's just got a crazy barrel program. They're doing some sours. I just tried one on cherries the other day that was like on point. And then Reykla, which is this new like kind of Mexican moonshine, next level above mezcal. And they're doing like pechuga and all these things. They age chicken in. It's like flavor you never had.
[01:05:22] Ray Latif: Smashing. Yeah, I wanna make a Moscow Mule out of that stuff. Can you make a Moscow Mule out of an already alcoholic Ginger Beer? Yeah, 100%. Okay. You can totally use it for cocktails.
[01:05:30] Jon Landis: Okay, double cocktail. Yeah, exactly. Yum.
[01:05:33] Ray Latif: You know, one of the things we didn't mention? Do I have to put a warning label? Don't make cocktails out of this? Yeah, yeah. We did not mention that BevNET Live, Nosh Live, and Brew Brown Session are literally right around the corner.
[01:05:46] Jon Landis: You know, BevNET Live's gonna be sold out soon. You're not going to be able to buy tickets anymore in a few days. So if you're listening to this close to the publishing date and you're considering coming, time's up. You got to buy your ticket now because we're going through with this thing. It's happening and room is full and we're really excited.
[01:06:05] Ray Latif: Yeah. What's the best way to sign up, Landis?
[01:06:07] Jon Landis: BevNetLive.com. Give me a call. Shoot me an email. What's your email address?
[01:06:12] Ray Latif: CarrierPigeon. JayLandis at BevNET. OK. Yep. JayLandis at BevNET.
[01:06:16] Jon Landis: NoshLive.
[01:06:17] Ray Latif: Excited about that.
[01:06:17] Jon Landis: JayLandis at BevNET.
[01:06:19] SPEAKER_??: No.
[01:06:20] Jon Landis: Yes, Nosh is actually the biggest Nosh event we've ever hosted already, and we still are two weeks out. So yeah, feeling really good about that one.
[01:06:30] Ray Latif: Good stuff. Brewbound Session as well as packing attendees in.
[01:06:32] Jon Landis: Yeah, Brewbound Session. We're getting some really great- Bell's Founders High Seas. It's going to be awesome. It's awesome. We got some cool breweries for the Startup Brewery Challenge. It's going to be a really good day.
[01:06:41] Ray Latif: Yeah, indeed. I'm really excited for all three events. And once again, we're going to be podcasting, if you're not familiar with our podcast, we're going to be podcasting at these events. And if you're there, you know, come and see us. We'll have a big booth at the event. Big announcements. Big announcements too. Yeah. So, oh, we got a big announcement next week. Big stuff coming next week.
[01:07:04] Jon Landis: Huge stuff.
[01:07:04] Mike Schneider: Are we ready?
[01:07:05] Ray Latif: Yes. We're ready. All right. You'll have to tune in next week. All right, that's it for us in this edition of the Bad Bat Podcast. I wanted to congratulate you on your big FA Cup win, Ray. You guys and your soccer.
[01:07:25] Mike Schneider: You thought you were going to get away with that?
[01:07:27] Jon Landis: What do I congratulate you on? Closing deals.
[01:07:33] Ray Latif: We need to be recording what happens in this room because Craven's look of disgust was like one of the greatest things I've ever seen in this room. All right, you guys really like soccer.
[01:07:46] Jon Landis: I think you're both really cultured and smart because of your international interests. You guys talking about soccer every week would be like if I talked about Negroni of the week.
[01:07:57] Mike Schneider: I love if you talked about Negroni of the week.
[01:07:59] Ray Latif: When can we get that?
[01:08:00] Mike Schneider: This week's Negroni of the Week is Negroni.
[01:08:04] Ray Latif: And next week!
[01:08:06] Mike Schneider: And next week is Negroni week, actually. So I will probably not be on the podcast or I don't know. You can find sober, but you need some life support. Probably. Yeah.
[01:08:17] Ray Latif: Yeah. Good stuff. All right. Yes. Congratulations on your FA Cup win, Mike.
[01:08:21] Mike Schneider: Finally.
[01:08:22] Ray Latif: All right. This is finally the end of the BevNET podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send them to podcast at BevNET.com. See you next time.
[01:08:33] Mike Schneider: Come on, you Gunners.
