[00:00:04] Ray Latif: Hey, I'm Ray Latif with BevNET, and I'm here with John Craven, the founder of BevNET. Jon Landis, our beverage specialist, and this is our inaugural podcast. Let's turn to John Craven, you know. Jon, for those who don't know BevNET, and I know most of you are listening and are familiar with BevNET, but for those who are not, Jon, tell us a little bit about BevNET.
[00:00:22] John Craven: So BevNET in a technical definition is a business to business media company. We cover the food and beverage industries, put on conferences, produce a website, even have a print magazine. In a more laid back sense, you know, we're really on the front line of the food and beverage industry, really focused on kind of emerging brands and trends, all packaged products, but that's kind of our reason for being.
[00:00:46] Ray Latif: Our reason for being, we have a website, we have a magazine, and now we have a podcast. There you go. Why are we doing a podcast? Jon Landis, tell me.
[00:00:55] Jon Landis: Well, you know, the podcast is a really interesting format. You know, the way that we communicate with people now is pretty formal in the magazine and in the reporting that we do. This is a way that, you know, it's more of our personalities can come across. We can talk a little bit more freely. And, you know, you guys can get to know us a little bit better.
[00:01:16] John Craven: And we can even put a microphone Jon Landis' hand here, so that's something new.
[00:01:19] Jon Landis: Yeah, that's exciting.
[00:01:20] Ray Latif: We've done that once before. We did that at our Project Nosh event in Los Angeles.
[00:01:25] Jon Landis: Yeah.
[00:01:25] Ray Latif: Had you on the couch for a little bit.
[00:01:26] Jon Landis: I thought it went well, you know. I'm not the best, but I give it my best college try.
[00:01:32] Ray Latif: I would agree with everything you just said. Okay. So, you know, in the podcast, we're gonna be talking about a lot of different things, including what's going on in the world of food and beverage on a weekly kind of basis. And, you know, one of the things that's been brought up a few times, you know, over the past week or that I've encountered over the past week is this concept of using food waste to produce food and beverages, new uses for food and beverages. You know, we saw that in our New Beverage Showdown a couple of months ago. And, you know, one of the most prominent companies that does that is Watermelon Water, where they look for second, what they call seconds, bruised or damaged fruit or sort of ugly fruit that can't make it onto the produce aisle, but can make it into a juice. You know, that concept is a really wonderful and worthy concept. But, you know, how hard is that to be, you know, to become a scalable concept? You know, I'm not really sure at this point.
[00:02:28] John Craven: Yeah, I mean, it seems like something that, you know, for a startup company is an extra challenge, of course, you know, in terms of, like, building out their supply chain. You know, I think Watermelon Water, you know, has had some challenges with it, depending on the time of the year and where they have to source from. But, you know, it's definitely a real problem that's out there with, you know, especially some of these cold press juice brands where there's, you know, it's just a lot of waste. So I think it's, you know, certainly admirable that, you know, companies are choosing products that, you know, are otherwise, you know, kind of secondhand or, you know, not ready to be sold as, you know, kind of shiny fruit in the produce aisle. So definitely give them props for that.
[00:03:10] Ray Latif: Yeah, I talked to a cold-pressed juice company today called Misfit Juice, and I looked at their website, and the first thing I saw is, we are not a juice company. And I thought that was really interesting. I thought, you know, their whole object, their whole mission statement is based on reducing food waste. And they're based in D.C., and it's a pretty young founders team. It's a 23-year-old and 22-year-old friends from Georgetown who started this company. In fact, one of the founders is still at Georgetown, but they've got some good distribution. They're producing at a Community Kitchen in DC, they're HVP-ing the product and they're on their way. It sounds like, you know, something that is definitely an admirable project. But I did ask one of the founders, he said, you know, you've got food waste, but then you've got food waste from the cold pressing process. You've got that pulp. you know, what are you doing with that? And he said, you know, we're composting some of it, but some companies are actually turning that pulp into actual food and other beverages. John, you've seen a few, Jon Landis, you've seen a lot of this stuff.
[00:04:08] Jon Landis: Yeah, you know, we've definitely seen a number of brands doing that. I think it really comes down to the question of like, why are you starting a business, right? If you're starting a business to be profitable, or are you starting a business because this is what you, you want this impact on the world, you know, the social cause of starting a business, this is probably one of the best ones that are out there. There are a lot of ones that, You know, say they donate profits to charities or, you know, they have like their mission. But this is actually like a huge problem with food waste. They say that food in landfills can be contributing more greenhouse gases than even automobiles. So, you know, being able to take a start a company, base it on a mission like this, that's a really big issue that's Not talked about enough. I think it's a really, really great thing. And we are seeing a lot of companies do it. There was a company in our New Beverage Showdown last year, Muse. I think they're based in Nevada or California. Yeah.
[00:05:07] Ray Latif: I mean, and Forager is a really good example. So Forager project, well now they're not Forager project anymore, but they're Forager based in Northern California. And they actually reuse a hundred percent of their pulp is what they've told us. And they turn them into chips, Forager chips, which actually tastes really, really good. John, you're a big fan.
[00:05:26] John Craven: Yeah, no, I think, you know, that's actually a good segue to what I was going to say, which is, you know, I think all of this stuff that we're talking about only works if we're not compromising the product. I mean, I think what I feel like I've seen time and time again are companies that, you know, they have a mission, but they're basically in their messaging saying, you know, by accepting our mission, which is admirable in most cases, you're getting, you know, you're accepting a product that's not as good as if we didn't have the mission. So, you know, if you're saying, hey, here's some cold-pressed juice that's made with secondhand fruit or, excuse me, blemished fruit, whatever it is, but it doesn't taste as good as the other product that's made with, you know, the finest, freshest, whatever, then people just aren't going to buy it. I mean, or not a lot of people. I think in the case of Forager, you know, what's really impressive is they've taken something that is, you know, a byproduct of, you know, their juice and what do you call it? Almond milk line. And they produce something that, you know, is really, really tasty. I mean, if you didn't even say that it was from, you know, the byproduct, like, I still think it was awesome.
[00:06:32] Ray Latif: Right, the perception is all high quality.
[00:06:34] John Craven: Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that's the best of both worlds, right? I mean, you've got the cause and you've got a product that tastes, you know, I don't know, it's one of the best like veggie chips I've ever had. So, you know, that's exactly what you need to do. And I think that's something that, you know, other companies that do this with things like charities and stuff like that, again, I think it just gets lost sometimes that you still have to have a good product. Like the product has to hold its own. Otherwise, the whole mission, the charity, it's just something that people aren't going to latch onto.
[00:07:05] Ray Latif: Yeah, cause-based marketing is definitely one of those things that companies have led with when they launch, and it seems like it's worked not so well a lot of times. I think there was a new lemonade. Do you still remember seeing that? I think we wrote about that in one of our press clips. I think she was an 11-year-old girl who raised a million dollars and launched a lemonade at Whole Foods. But is that a sustainable concept? Is that a sustainable idea? I'm not so sure. We saw that with, you know, make, what was it called? Make a stand. Make a stand. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think that company's out of business.
[00:07:37] Jon Landis: They, they like transitioned from being a beverage company into being an app where, you know, you can launch a stand and people can like, it was like a. an Instagram type of thing where you'd be able to learn a little bit more, but just donate directly through the app. And they put all the resources into that. I think the app is still around. I'm pretty sure the beverages aren't.
[00:07:59] Ray Latif: And the trade would call that a pivot, but that's a really serious pivot out of the beverage industry. Yeah. I don't think I've seen that before.
[00:08:06] John Craven: No, and I mean, I think, you know, look, they were focused on a specific cause and trying to find the right format for it, which is, you know, it's definitely a different problem than what you typically see with, you know, people trying to have a cause attached to a food or beverage product. Right. And I think, you know, to what you were saying about that, that lemonade, I mean, I'm, I've only seen pictures. I would have no idea how it's doing, but, you know, I would suspect that, you know, that company just needs to like, again, keep in mind that they need to create a brand that like, I'm actually going to want to hold in my hand every day and, and drink. And I think that's something that is oftentimes, you know, tough to do. I mean, if you look at, you know, one of the, most, if not most successful, you know, Newman's Own. I mean, that was always a line that, you know, kind of stood on its own. Like, the charity, like, totally didn't matter at all in terms of, like, why you buy it. It was just, you know, a nice extra piece to it.
[00:09:01] Ray Latif: Speaking of what you're holding in your hand, we get a whole bunch of samples in the office all the time. Now this is a pivot too, from what we were just talking about. Go for it. But I just saw this, I just saw this in our fridge, this Numu, no charity attached this as far as I know. And this is, they have a line of nut milks, including this pistachio milk that I'm holding in my hand. It's quite tasty. But you know, a lot of these nut milks that are coming out there, they're finding out that there's a lot more variety other than nut almond milk out there. You're seeing cashew milk, you're seeing pistachio milk. What other nut milks have you guys seen out there?
[00:09:33] Jon Landis: Well, first of all, the veggie moo isn't even nuts. It's like potato and, you know. Oh, right. We saw that at Expo West, yeah. And then there's also the macadamia milks that we've seen. I saw at least two or three with Milkadamia being, you know, the brand that stood out to me. But that was really tasty. They even had an unsweetened one that I thought was really interesting.
[00:09:54] Ray Latif: Yeah, for sure. I mean, all these are, you know, they're really good tasting. I think the price point and the reason why you're drinking this, and this is something we also talked about at Expo West in one of our roundup videos, is, you know, why are people drinking this stuff? I mean, why are people drinking so much nut milk these days, John Craven that is.
[00:10:10] John Craven: Thank you. Thanks for clarifying. No, I think, you know, look, there's obviously plenty of reason out there that people are seeking dairy alternatives just from, you know, allergy, you know, health concerns, flavor. And I think, you know, we're sort of at a point where, like, Anything that you're consuming, it is kind of like, oh, you know, what's in this? What's this going to do for me? And, you know, nuts are one of those things, I think, that have like a universal, you know, kind of like, you know, perceived as good for you, right? They have sustenance to them, too. And I think they make, you know, really tasty beverages. you know, it's kind of funny that we're at this point where it's almost like we're just cycling through every, you know, possible nut out there and almost like, you know, seeing if you can drink it. And I don't know, I don't know where it all ends up. I mean, it's certainly not what I would have anticipated, but, you know, I think we're kind of looking for the next, like, you know, soy milk, that thing that is massively successful on a wide scale. I mean, almond milk is kind of right there too, but, you know, for all these startups, like, You know, they're just trying to find a point of differentiation, a different health message, a different flavor profile. And, you know, it was pretty interesting. Like the pistachio ones in particular were really, you know, they were really like out there saying, hey, this is like the healthiest nut. And, you know, I think, you know, kind of to be expected that that would happen, right?
[00:11:38] Ray Latif: Yeah, for sure. I mean, nut raw was that one that was creating a lot of buzz at Expo West. It tasted incredible.
[00:11:44] John Craven: I'll give you props for that.
[00:11:45] Ray Latif: And it looked really, really good too. It came in that clear bottle with that white and green wrap and called itself 100% raw pistachio milk. And it just wet the palate to the point where I'm salivating right now. But we haven't seen any samples yet. So, NutRaw, if you're listening, send us samples immediately because we need more of that stuff.
[00:12:05] Jon Landis: And I want to also say, you know, I think that there is definitely a trend away from fat being the most evil thing in the world. Nuts are high in fat. They have some good protein in them. And, you know, with people... moving away from sugar and saying, oh man, fat isn't like the worst thing ever. It's giving a big opportunity to a lot of these nut girls.
[00:12:26] John Craven: Well, I think, I mean, that's a great, you know, point too. And that, I think, you know, to what I said at the start of that, like, you know, nuts I think are, you know, generally understood to be something that is like healthy, natural, you know, not talking about like the, you know, honey roasted peanuts of the old days, but, you know, You know, I think that is something that people can accept that the fat in nuts, like in, you know, moderation, of course, is something that is better than, say, I don't know, fats in French fries, right?
[00:12:58] Jon Landis: I'm waiting for chestnut milk.
[00:13:00] Ray Latif: That would be kind of interesting. How about roasted chestnut?
[00:13:03] Jon Landis: Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:04] Ray Latif: Roasted chestnut. Holiday flavor, there you go. Holiday flavor, ooh, don't. Chest-nog. I just figured, maybe instead of this whole podcast thing, we should just open our own beverage company and call it Roasted Chestnut Milk.
[00:13:16] John Craven: You guys are full of great ideas. I think you're on your own on that one. Clearly, you were asleep at all the BevNET lives you've been to.
[00:13:23] Ray Latif: Well, one of the things that people, yeah, people are definitely looking at fat and saying, hey, it's not the worst thing in the world. But sugar is one of those things that in the food and beverage industry has become public enemy number one for a lot of companies. investors, I think it was Rohan Oza, the famous vitamin water CMO who now heads up the CalVoo Fund, which is a mega fund that he launched with Clayton Christopher, the very successful entrepreneur of Sweet Leaf Tea and Deep Betty Vodka. Yeah, they're really down on sugar. And, you know, it's not necessarily, you know, that sugar is, you know, in its natural form is the worst thing in the world, but added sugars to absolutely no-no in almost anything these days.
[00:14:10] John Craven: Yeah, I mean, it's always been just a reality of the beverage business. It's like, you know, you for the longest time have products that would come out. I mean, I remember when Honest Tea came out, you know, in the late 90s, and it was, you know, immediately met with like, you know, put more, well, put sugar in it. It was unsweet originally. And, you know, it was always a secret of, or dirty secret of this industry. You know, it's like, you add sugar, add more sugar, it sells better. And, you know, we're now at a point where we've like, you know, gone the reverse. It's like, if you have sugar in it, you really need to justify why there's sugar in it. And, you know, there are some exceptions, you know, Kraft sodas and whatnot. But even for those, like, you know, the sugar profile added sugar has to be as low as possible. On the other hand, like... You know, it's interesting looking at, you know, some of the cold press juices that are out there that, you know, are made with a lot of apples and things that have, you know, natural sweetness and the amount of sugar, the grams of sugar on the nutrition label are really high. And, you know, I think it's, you know, I kind of wonder just how easy or hard it is for a consumer to really make sense of all that, you know, which things are good and which are bad. And I think that is kind of why that puts it into that public enemy number one, right?
[00:15:28] Ray Latif: Well, I mean, the alternative and, you know, we've seen a lot of juice companies try to use alternative sweeteners like a stevia or a monk fruit with some success, varying levels of success for sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, if you use a lot of apples in your formulation, you're going to get a lot of sugar.
[00:15:46] John Craven: There's no way around it, right?
[00:15:46] Ray Latif: There's no way around it. You know, by the same token, you know, we have seen alternative sweeteners that don't use sugar or use the word sugar and seen some companies have some success saying, hey, we don't use cane sugar, we use something else. We use dates, we use maple syrup, we use monk fruit. Very, very kind of bleeding edge kind of stuff. But the potential for that is, you know, it seems kind of high because the word sugar itself is becoming that four-letter word that nobody wants to touch.
[00:16:13] John Craven: Yeah, I mean, even, you know, if you look at how sugar is put on, you know, labels, I mean, there are obviously, you know, some companies that are still like pure cane sugar and You know, that's like a fad that just won't die on beverages since it's just, you know, table sugar that we're talking about. And then there's, you know, evaporated cane juice and all these different things that are really... you know, only a few steps removed.
[00:16:36] Jon Landis: High fructose corn syrup.
[00:16:38] John Craven: Well, there's always high fructose corn syrup. That will never go away, I guess. But although I think they've renamed high fructose corn syrup now, too.
[00:16:46] Ray Latif: Well, they tried to rename it corn sugar and that got shut down.
[00:16:49] John Craven: So, but, you know, as far as things like agave or maple syrup, I mean, or dates for that matter, I think it's pretty neat. You know, you're adding a sweetener that aside from just, you know, sweetness, it actually like, you know, enhances the flavor. You know, I think to the point before about kind of justifying things, I mean, saying you're putting in maple syrup in, you know, the context of like it also somehow impacting flavor, I think is a lot more palatable than, you know, hey, we just added sugar to pump up the sweetness.
[00:17:20] Jon Landis: I also think that we have seen a tremendous proliferation of the usage of Stevia in this industry in the last few years. And I always caution entrepreneurs about it because it's just I personally I feel like it alienates like half the people like half the population just doesn't like it. And when they learn they don't like it they're not going to buy it.
[00:17:38] Ray Latif: It is divisive and we saw that with vitamin water. Vitamin water tried to start using stevia and they had a gigantic ridiculous backlash against that.
[00:17:46] Jon Landis: Yeah, but I say that to your point, you know, these sugar alternatives like maple syrup and honey and agave, you know, they add another dimension and they can make your product... you know, just take on kind of a different form. Stevia doesn't really do that. Stevia just kind of boosts like this weird, you know, front of the tongue kind of sweetness and gives it a bitter aftertaste.
[00:18:12] John Craven: Well, forget about that for a second because, you know, none of us are, you know, product formulators, chemists, food scientists, but to your point, you know, it definitely is, you know, a perception. And I think, you know, drinking something that has some sort of premium sweetener in it, it just is more appealing to the senses than, you know, Stevia. I find it hard to believe that anyone, you know, sees Stevia and like, you know, that wets the palate, right?
[00:18:40] Jon Landis: No, it's definitely the favorite use because it doesn't increase the calorie count. And that's basically, you know, everyone's like got their magic numbers whether it's 50 or 80 or a hundred four zero doing or zero Yeah for whatever, you know kind of product they're making You know, but also to an earlier point about sugar being public enemy number one, you know, let's not forget like Ace K and like Sucralose and like, you know, all the artificial sweeteners, you know, they already got knocked off, but you know, it's almost impossible unless you're a major, major beverage company to use those ingredients effectively. Like Monster does it.
[00:19:19] John Craven: Well, yeah, I mean, you're talking about just a segment of like, you know, value priced beverages where it is all about just, you know, price and probably zero and that's it.
[00:19:29] Ray Latif: And we should note, I mean, or I should note that, you know, Stevia has been used very successfully in some brands. You know, Buy is a really good example of a company that uses Stevia. Zevia is another example. Hubert's Lemonade uses Stevia very well. I mean, some of it has to do with, you know, the citrus.
[00:19:44] Jon Landis: Oh, this is definitely coming from my perspective of just someone who doesn't enjoy it.
[00:19:48] John Craven: Well, you are, I mean, you are also, you know, the brands that you mentioned off, like those are sort of the value end of the natural set too. So I think that's kind of, you know, just to, put that in the right context, I think, you know, the brands that we're kind of speaking about are the ones that are trying to create something that is higher end or premium and achieving a certain like, you know, calorie or sugar content. And that's where I think it comes across as a negative. I mean, if you want to buy diet soda and buy it in Whole Foods, well, you know, you're getting some Stevia and you're probably, you know, okay with that, I would imagine. Like, that's just the option right now.
[00:20:25] Ray Latif: When was the last time you drank a diet soda, John Craven?
[00:20:28] John Craven: You know, I'd put that up there with like a Bud Light. I don't know if I've ever, you know, fully consumed one. But, you know, look, I mean, for me, like, I would rather just drink something that's like, you know, pure in flavor. I mean, I, whatever. And part of that, to put it in context, like, I don't know how many different beverages I've tried while doing this, but you know, my palate's at a point where there are certain things that like, I just, I just can't enjoy anymore. You know, even to put it into real life, I was at the dentist last week and they give me, you know, the mint flavored toothpaste. And I almost like gagged because it's like, it's like that crappy, like the worst mint flavor you can find in a drink in like intense form in your mouth.
[00:21:08] Jon Landis: Well, they have the five gallon bag and box toothpaste in the back.
[00:21:11] John Craven: Probably. Yeah. You know, but, but I'm, I'm just saying like, you know, there is kind of like the, the reality of working in this space where you just, I don't know, your palate almost gets like, your senses are messed up. So something like Stevia or artificial sweetener, like, eh, no thanks.
[00:21:28] Ray Latif: Well, that's all the time we have. Gagging at the dentist's office. I didn't think we'd get there today, but we did. Hey, hey, you know, we had to go there. I'm sorry. Indeed. Well, I think we're going to wrap this one up. But thanks to everyone who's listening to the podcast. We're planning on coming out with many, many more of these. Hope you like what you listen to. And any critiques, ideas, or ideas for other podcasts, please reach out to us. You can just send them to news at BevNET.com. And yeah, we'll get to them. So thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.
