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[00:00:39] Ray Latif: Hey folks, I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with Tony Burt, the founder and CEO of super premium mixer brand, East Imperial. Tony Burt has seen the lights, but he's rarely swayed by it. Tony is the founder and CEO of East Imperial, a New Zealand-based of upscale mixers inspired by a 1903 recipe for tonic water and made using natural and sustainably sourced ingredients. The brand markets several varieties of tonic water, along with a grapefruit soda, ginger beer, ginger ale, soda water, lemonade, and cola. A globally distributed brand, East Imperial is specifically focused on the on-premise channel. Its products are featured at world-renowned cocktail bars, restaurants, and hotels that align with its premium positioning. The company is in the midst of a major expansion in the U.S., and despite vast retail opportunities available in the market, Tony is adamant that East Imperial maintains its focus on high-end hospitality. While the allure, spotlight, and potential windfall revenue associated with distribution at major retail and restaurant chains are compelling, Tony notes that at the heart of East Imperial's business strategy is discipline and an emphasis on the brand's core values. In the following interview, I spoke with Tony Burt the origins of East Imperial and how he, a former advertising executive, became a beverage entrepreneur. He also spoke about how he and his team hold the line on pricing and positioning, how the company identifies ideal placement for its products, and why it's agnostic about strategic partnerships. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm honored to be sitting down with Tony Burt, who is the founder and CEO of East Imperial. Tony, so great to see you.
[00:02:46] East Imperial: Great to see you too, Ray. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:48] Ray Latif: Yeah. You're joining us all the way from Sweden, one of my favorite countries in the world. What are you doing in Scandinavia?
[00:02:56] East Imperial: Well, I'm obviously usually based in New Zealand-based from New Zealand-based, but my better half is Swedish. So I find myself here with my children and her at the in-laws for Christmas. We've just arrived here. So it's a very dark and very cold comparative to where I've just come from.
[00:03:14] Ray Latif: Yeah, Southern Hemisphere, you're in the midst of a nice summer, and right now you're up in the Northern Hemisphere. You're near the tip of the Northern Hemisphere, actually.
[00:03:23] East Imperial: Yeah. Well, it feels like it, believe me. I've been outside a couple of times today, and it's pretty chilly out there, and it's dark as well. So as I said, it's quite the stark contrast to where we were three or four days ago.
[00:03:37] Ray Latif: Well, I recall eating some outstanding food In Sweden, so hopefully at least you have that.
[00:03:43] East Imperial: Yeah, well, I did do a smorgasbord this afternoon with lots of herring and salmon and whatnot. So you have been indulging in that. I love it as well.
[00:03:52] Ray Latif: Very nice. Very nice. Tony, it seems like you've been all over the world. You know, you're from New Zealand-based. You're currently In Sweden where your wife is from. And you have some deep roots in the UK as well. You were in the advertising business for some time, right?
[00:04:06] East Imperial: That's correct. Yeah, I lived in the UK for 15 years. I returned back to the homeland, New Zealand-based, in 2009 with my wife and our newborn. But also when I returned to New Zealand-based, I took up a role as Chief Executive of MSC Saatchi, which was arguably, in New Zealand-based at the time, the last of the true brand agencies. My career has really been built, my advertising career anyway, was built on strategy and planning side of advertising. So, you know, that's sort of analyzing human behavior and what makes people buy one thing over another, which I've always been intrigued about, so it's more the analytical side. Although any good planner will tell you that they're a creative as well, and I guess I fall into that bucket as well. But I think really what I loved about advertising was the breadth of companies or industries that you got exposed to. Typically when a lot of companies came to advertising agency, they came to you because there was a problem. And a lot of those problems were they weren't selling as much or there was a competitor or the market was changing due to online. So it's a really rich background to explore different industries. And one of those was FMCG. And I've always been fascinated by FMCG and namely beverages. And sort of late, sort of 2006, 2007, that sort of time, there was obviously a big movement into the craft space and beer, and that was when I was living in London. And that was no different when I returned home to New Zealand-based. I was fortunate enough to work at a number of different large spirits brands as well in my advertising career, and also saw the proliferation of craft or premium spirits as well, and craft spirits, and it seemed that Every sort of city that I ever sort of visited would have its own gin or its own rum or its own whiskey. And that really fascinated me. And I guess that was really the backdrop for me to start thinking about other categories, which are cocktail adjacent, as we'd call it, and what opportunities lay there.
[00:06:19] Ray Latif: When you were working in the advertising business, did you encounter or connect with or work with many entrepreneurs?
[00:06:26] East Imperial: Oh, definitely. I best describe, and I was talking to someone about this the other day, and I still keep in touch with my old advertising friends and the people that I met through advertising, had some of the the hardest working moments of my life, but also some of the most fulfilling, I think, in advertising. And you meet some incredible people. The best way to describe it is there's a lot of misfits that kind of have to come together and do cool things together. And I love that. I've always loved the idea of people coming together and sharing their craft, so to speak. And then at the end of it, you'd have an incredible piece of work. And then off the back of that, watching how people engage in it.
[00:07:06] Ray Latif: It sounds a bit like hospitality.
[00:07:08] East Imperial: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Well, I originally was in hospitality in my university days as well. So I've done my tour of duty, as it were, in that trade as well. But yeah, I've met some incredibly talented entrepreneurs and continue to do so even in this space that we're working at the moment. But advertising was no different. You know, I was fortunate enough to, you know, for a big part of my career to be sort of in the dot com sort of boom. So, you know, there was a lot of incredibly smart and talented people that were kind of born from the late sort of 1990s into the early 2000s, which I was lucky enough to work with.
[00:07:45] Ray Latif: What did your experience in advertising inform you or how did it inform you about things like consumer trends and sustainable innovation and entrepreneurship as a whole?
[00:07:57] East Imperial: That's a great question. One of the biggest lessons I've taken from advertising, which I still use now, is very much a delivery mindset and the discipline of delivery. It's ingrained with you, or in you, or was in me anyway, in the advertising agencies that I worked in. you know, it's about having this delivery mindset. It's about, you know, working to a set way, you know, create a process, and at the end of it, delivery. And I think that discipline's really important in entrepreneurship. It's the idea of taking an idea, and I think it's very easy to go down a rabbit hole and to lose yourself about what is right and what is wrong. But a lot of times, the best times is just to continue to deliver and see how it goes. And, you know, one of the things we always talk about within our business at the moment is to fail fast. So if something's not working, we're growing up enough to sit around the table and say, why isn't it working? And then to either not do it anymore and move on. And I mean there's been a couple of products that we've launched that haven't done that well and we'll take the learnings from it and we'll move on. So I think I take it for granted. I don't really think about it too much but it's just the way that I've been trained through my advertising career which I've applied to my own business and entrepreneurship as a whole. But I think it's a great discipline. I try and run the business in the same way now. We don't like things sitting around the office for months and months on end, just like advertising agencies don't. We like to turn it around and get it out as quickly as we can.
[00:09:30] Ray Latif: And I'm sure you know plenty about the value, or lack thereof, of advertising agency fees. So...
[00:09:41] East Imperial: Well, the best way to describe it, and I've said this for a long time, is we're the advertising agency and the client rolled into one. We do have a head of creative in the agency, designers, and so we do everything. our brand architecture and is all centralised at a global level. And again, that's just a learning that I've taken from working in ad agencies. But you are right, I do know the model. Agencies, a lot of the time, are selling time. You rack up time with them, you pay, it's very much like a solicitor's model. But yeah, I know the way that they work. And as I said, a lot of it, we've just got it in-house at the moment.
[00:10:24] Ray Latif: You know how agencies work. Did you have a solid understanding or at least feel confident about how the business of beverages worked?
[00:10:33] East Imperial: 100% not. Thank you for your honesty. Yeah, no, no, no. But, you know, on reflection, I think Being naive, I think, is somewhat of a superpower at the beginning, I believe anyway, in reflection that not settling for what everyone else was telling us we should do in terms of our proprietary bottle size and And all the downstream manufacturing headaches that that actually caused, and tending to change parts, and packaging, and fill heights, and the list goes on and on on the operational side. But I guess the naivety about it, and somewhat stubbornness of not wanting to change, has actually served us really well. I mean, it could have been very easy. And I see a lot of brands do it now. They go for the standard bottle, they go for the standard label. and what have you. But for me, again, with my brand hat on, brand is always about finding your own place. And you're only, in a lot of instances, get one chance to do it. And so when you do do it, do it properly. So I guess with that lens is kind of how I went into it. As I said, I didn't have a lot of experience in the beverage side, maybe not on the marketing side I did, but very much not on the manufacturing side. So that was a steep learning curve, but one I've really, really enjoyed. So I can hold my own now. When I'm speaking to, you know, co-packers and packaging people and shipping lines and what have you, but at the beginning it was completely foreign language. I would write notes down and go home and Google search acronyms to understand what people are talking about a lot of the times.
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[00:12:40] Ray Latif: Well, manufacturing aside, I feel like you had a really good sense from the start about what you wanted East Imperial to represent. And that is a super premium mixer brand. Why lean so heavily into that tier of the category? And again, you know, you and I chatted yesterday about East Imperial's near total focus, at least in the US market, on the on-premise channel. Can you talk about why those two aspects of the brand are so important, were so important to you?
[00:13:16] East Imperial: I'll answer the first question first, which is, you know, why we chose to focus very much on the higher end. And again, on a personal level, I've always been fascinated by luxury marketing and luxury positioning. Again, this is the analytical side or the understand why people make irrational decisions or emotional decisions when choosing brands. That fascinates me to this day. I read a lot about it and I follow a lot about it, but I think At the very outset, you know, if we all believed and it has proven to be true, this trend of, you know, premiumization, as they label it now, and all these premium spirits and premium experiences that proliferated over the last 10 or 15 years. For me, it was really important that we had a brand that actually measured up to those experiences. I know it's easy to call yourself premium, but what we're seeing now, I think, is proof that our strategy was the correct one. I've always been a big believer that simple strategies are the best strategies, and we've just stuck to our knitting, so to speak. really focus on that super premium end. But I think what we're seeing in the market at the moment is very much a change. There's a lot of commoditisation going on. Everyone knows what a premium mixer is now, I think, and that's been a category job by the market leader and others, and it's been incredible to be involved in it. But I think more so than ever now, particularly in a market that's becoming heavily commoditised, it's more important than ever for us to continue to hold that super premium end to the market. And that's where East Imperial's always felt most at home. And I guess that probably brings me on to the second part of the question, which is on trade, you know, luxury on trade's always been our bread and butter right from the very beginning in terms of, you know, our sales strategy and talk about simple strategies. We just looked at the world's 50 best bars for that particular year in 2013 and said, okay, let's try and get us into many of these as we possibly can this year. That was the strategy. That was the sales strategy. You know, it wasn't any more complicated than that. And we try not to get distracted with other opportunities. We just stuck to what we wanted to do and went after it. And I know you and I spoke about this. It's very easy, I think, as a new brand to get somewhat hypnotized by the bright lights of other opportunities in different areas, particularly if you have a strong product and a strong brand and a strong offering and a strong category. But it takes discipline to actually, you know, stick to your strategy and do the right thing. Because I'm a strong believer that over time that will pay dividends because you continue to actually build your brand and actually what it means without eroding your brand equity. And I guess that's been the journey we've been on for some time now. We've obviously had a couple of hiccups along the way in terms of COVID. You know, when you talk about having a luxury on trade strategy in Asia and America during COVID, that was somewhat flawed. but now I could see a pandemic coming. It's really pleasing to see that we're seeing a return to that. I mean, I know we're living in extraordinary times with cost of living crisis, but what is actually happening at the very top end is we are still actually seeing growth. And a lot of the large hotel groups, the big hospitality groups are still expanding. And that's really important to us, but it also underlines the importance of us to continue to hold that super premium into the market to capitalise on those opportunities.
[00:16:41] Ray Latif: I definitely want to talk about focus and discipline. I just want to back up for a second and talk about the super premium nature of what it is that you sell. And as you mentioned earlier, as a brand, you can describe yourself as premium, but what does that really mean? And how do you communicate what that means authentically to consumers? So, you know, as much as the descriptor is important, backing it up with validation about why you're calling yourself this is just as important. Can you talk about the communication aspect and the marketing of how you use that word super premium or luxury?
[00:17:22] East Imperial: Yeah, there's a number of different aspects to it, right? A number of different proof points. This is the way we look at it and it's got to be the company you keep, you know, and or the company you keep or where you actually found. And we place a lot of importance on those relationships. And I guess that anybody that really knows us knows that we've had a number of very strong global relationships for some time now. And that's just a reflection of the strong relationships we have and the way we manage and the way we respect each other. And over time, that puts us in a great position for as these people are expanding. So those proof points are really important to us. Of course, packaging and presentation is important. And, you know, from the very outset, we put a lot of attention and focus in the way that we look and present ourselves and the language we use, the copy we use, what have you. I mean, all the things you kind of expect from someone that's from an advertising background and that has somewhat of a fascination with luxury marketing. And I think the third thing really for us is actually the taste of the product. The product's actually got to stand up for itself as well. So we can't be the only ones that say it tastes great. So we've had a number of different people that have not only judged it in blind tasting tests and continue to do so. We see ourselves, like the spiritual awards awarded each year, like best in class, best tonic, or what have you. So those things are important. But I don't think anything on its own is going to be enough. I mean, you just can't put all your efforts into winning awards if it doesn't look good and you don't keep good companies. So it's a combination of those three axes at all times, just keeping focused on them. We don't do a hell of a lot of above the line marketing. There are some regions that we do a little bit. A lot of what we do is actually looking after on trade and looking after those relationships. We like to be there for on trade. We like to see ourselves as very much a friend of the on trade. We're here to support them. We understand the challenges that a lot of them have had. We understand some of the opportunities that they have got ahead of them as well. So again, as I said, it's about managing those relationships as strongly as we possibly can, but also ensuring we're delivering on the other two things I mentioned.
[00:19:38] Ray Latif: I like the term the company that you keep and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe what you're saying is that the restaurants and bars that you're in reflect positively on the brand. And the retailers that you're in, even though there are only a handful, reflect the kind of retailers that, again, best represent what you're trying to say to consumers about who you are and what's inside the bottle. But that also seems a little limiting. in where you could be. And I know you talked about the opportunity and the bright lights of potentially being in a big time retailer or a restaurant group or hotel chain. And this goes back to the question of discipline. How do you maintain that discipline? And how do you make sure that it trickles down throughout your entire team?
[00:20:28] East Imperial: I think there's a couple of things there, right? I tend to disagree that the opportunity in super premium is limited. We're just scratching the surface on a number of these outlets we are at the moment. You know, we're not only just U.S. based, you know, we have a very strong presence in the Asia-Pacific and pockets throughout Europe as well. So there is a lot of headroom for Eastern Peril to grow. There's absolutely no doubt about that in my mind. So to stick to that. For me personally, it's not that hard. I think maybe some of our sales team has been challenging in some regard. But I think, you know, the key word for me is discipline. From the very beginning, I haven't been afraid to say no to people. And I think that's probably one of the biggest learnings that I've had because I've been such a stubborn guardian of the brand that I didn't want it to erode in any way, shape or form. So there has been a number of times I've actually walked away from deals because I just don't think it was the right partner for us. And that's not arrogance. I think that's just doing what I think is right as the founder and and putting my advertising ahead and protecting the brand. So it is all about discipline. But, you know, I think some of the interesting things for me is that sometimes we've said no to people and then a year later they come back to us and then they want to do the deal and they want to do something different. So it just sort of validates the approach. And I may have spoken to you about this the other day is that I was having a dinner with a food and beverage director who looks after 270 or 270-odd five-star hotels, and they're gonna double in the next three to four years in this particular region, the Asia-Pacific region. What was interesting, something that he told me, was that he understands that East Imperial's not the cheapest product, but what he's actually looking for is a product which reflects the experience that they wanna give their customers. And that's everything from the sheets, to the pillows, to the bedding, to the flower arrangements in the room, everything. And to start seeing food and beverage directors start to think this way, particularly rather than just say, how can I get this particular product cheaper from these guys, is really refreshing to me. And I think it's really reflective of our discipline, but also what's happening in the market at the moment, as people kind of get commoditised and we get pulled naturally up to the top and we'll find these opportunities.
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[00:23:46] Ray Latif: Going back to this question of where you can be and where you should be is something that I want to dissect a bit. I think about a retailer like Costco. And again, most of your business is on trade. Most of your business is on premise. But I don't know if Costco sells Burberry clothing and handbags or Hermes. I don't know if either of those brands would want to be in a Costco in the same way that I'm not sure if East Imperial would want to be in a Costco, but Costco does have a lot of shoppers who have refined palates and tastes. And so that opportunity does exist. And I wonder how or whether you would turn down, you know, an opportunity to be there.
[00:24:31] East Imperial: Yeah, I don't think it's the time now. We've got a long way to go. And I know, you know, we have tried going straight, not to Costco, we've gone straight to retail in a couple of regional markets straight away, and tried to cut the corner, if you will, of, you know, okay, let's try this and do this and then found that we just fell into this cycle of deep discounting, low margins, you know, high percentage given away to either the retailer or the distributor. It just kind of felt not where we belong at this stage of the brand. And I completely agree with you, you know, I'm not going to say that People that Costco don't have refined pellets or whatever, I completely agree with you on that. But I think for at the moment, where we are at the moment, it's about building it out in the luxury on trade. And maybe, who knows, in five years, 10 years time, that may be the channel that we want to go into. But at the moment, it's about remaining focused. And as I said, discipline of where we naturally align ourselves and where we naturally align ourselves at the moment is in that luxury on trade. And that has to be the focus.
[00:25:39] Ray Latif: So stay disciplined in the present, in the moment, while thinking flexible or incorporating flexibility into your long-term business strategies is what I'm hearing.
[00:25:50] East Imperial: Yeah. The reason we do retail, for example, in our home market in New Zealand-based due to the pandemic. You know, we had two years of disruption of pretty much no on-trade. And when on-trade did come back, no one really wanted to go out because everyone was scared to death that they were going to get COVID. We had to navigate that and the way we navigated that was to go into sort of premium retail up and down New Zealand-based, you know, 260 kind of supermarkets and a bunch of sort of premium grocers and premier liquor outlets. So that was a change of strategy for what was given to us at that particular time. So if you would have told me sort of 2019 that we'd be doing that, I would have laughed you out of the room and said, there's no way we're going to do that. But we did do it because it was a shifted strategy. So I'm not saying that, you know, in five or six years time that we won't change our strategy. But at the moment, we're very much focused on that on trade and supporting that on trade and taking the opportunity, particularly when luxury on trade is actually growing. It's more important than ever to support that.
[00:26:51] Ray Latif: I do have a feeling that whether or not you accept that opportunity five, six years down the line, you're going to hold a line on price. And I see this often with super premium or luxury brands that make the mistake of deep discounting or, or at least, you know, significant price reductions to be in a certain retailer or a certain market or a certain bar or restaurant group. And it ends up being to the detriment of that brand. Can you talk about your pricing strategy?
[00:27:24] East Imperial: Yeah, definitely. You know, we do have a couple of levers that we pull. Typically, you know, as I said, the markets become heavily commoditised. We are seeing reduction in shipping costs and glass costs and input costs in some areas. And so what's been interesting for me at a global level, and not just in the US, but at a global level where we operate, we are seeing competitors in some instances dropping their prices. And that could be, you know, their own strategy and their own reasons to do that in terms of where they are as a business. But again, you know, we go back to this whole thing with discipline. We're not big enough to get pulled into those sorts of price wars and neither should we. We're not ashamed that we're more expensive, you know, but as I said, we've got those three axes that we talk about constantly, the company we keep, you know, the proof points, the awards, the great looking product, the great presentation. And we feel that it's fair enough to be sort of 10, 15, 20% in some instances more expensive than our competitors. That's not us trying to make more margin than everybody else. I'm sure they've got way more efficiencies due to their scale. That's just a reflection of our positioning in the market and where our cogs are at and the way that we should position ourselves. So we look at things pretty much in the US, I go back to the US at a state level on pricing, we kind of a target price, but you know, pricing we understand is commercial reality as well for a lot of decision makers. But we do have some flexibility in there. But overall, I would say it's between sort of 10 and 20% price premium than our competitors in most instances at a global level.
[00:29:01] Ray Latif: Sometimes it also helps to align with other brands that reflect the values and the positioning that you keep. And I wonder about brand collaborations, whether it be, you know, in a value ad or, or just in, in terms of marketing or social media and how you think about working with spirit brands or otherwise to, you know, introduce and help market your brand.
[00:29:28] East Imperial: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's a big part of our marketing strategy globally. We've always said that we play nicely with everyone. We don't limit ourselves to one sort of the major portfolios because then the other portfolios won't want to work with us. So we've always played very nicely with everyone. you know, we've had our own proprietary activation, which is called Gin Jubilee. At one stage was the largest drink activation in Asia until COVID came along. And then, you know, so, and then under Gin Jubilee, we'd have anything from over, you know, nine different Asian cities, over 50 gin brands that would be working with, you know, from the local distiller around the corner to some of the major gin brands in the world. So we continue to work that way. We're not limited to gin, of course. We work with a lot of rum brands, whiskey brands, tequila, mezcal. You name it, we're working with it. It was interesting when one of our new board of directors came on about a year and a half ago, sort of said, you know, listen, collaborations is key to you guys. You know, how many people are you collaborating with? We pulled a list out, and I think the last count was well over 200 brands we've collaborated with since our inception. So there's always things going on. I've had calls in the last couple of days with other brands in the US. I was in the UK last week. So yeah, it's a big part of what we do, because for every great gin, everyone needs a tonic. If you're going to make a Paloma, you need the grapefruit soda. Again, it's that whole idea of the company you keep, and we like to work with brands which align, as you rightfully said, with our values and the way we position ourselves.
[00:31:05] Ray Latif: So you're relatively strategic agnostic, as in the spirit conglomerates that you work with are across the board. Do you ever worry about stepping on toes though?
[00:31:15] East Imperial: I don't think I worry about it. I'm not losing sleep about it. But I mean, there are some realities, you know, whether about, you know, what distributors some brands are using, you know, they might have another, you know, mixer in the stable that prevents them from working with East Imperial. There's a whole raft of reasons why people may not want to work or can't work with us, so to speak. But in general, at a more strategic level, I think people understand, going back to what we talked about earlier, our positioning in the market and how we position ourselves as more the super premium end and the for the more discerning customer, a lot of the larger brands get that, what we're trying to do, and they see that as a way to elevate what they're doing as well. So again, there's some great partnerships we're working on with some great brands in lots of different regions, whether that be in China and North America and New Zealand-based, Australia, you name it. But I'm saying, yeah, it's all about ensuring that who we're partnering with, again, are the right partners, and it's mutually beneficial for both of our brands.
[00:32:18] Ray Latif: Final question for someone who isn't familiar with East Imperial, wants to try one of your products and a drink for the first time. What is that drink?
[00:32:28] East Imperial: That's a great question. Where are these people? Are they in the US?
[00:32:31] Ray Latif: Yes, US consumers.
[00:32:34] East Imperial: I would tell people to drink our grapefruit soda and make a Paloma. I think it's like no other. It's our fastest growing product in North America and that's a reflection of obviously the popularity of tequila in Mescal and the explosive growth that it's had. experience, but the Grapefruit Soda is just an incredible drink. If anyone wants to make a great gin and tonic, my personal favorite is our Yuzu Tonic. It's our fastest growing tonic in popularity. I think over the last three or four years, people understand the Yuzu flavor. When we first launched it, there was a bit of confusion about actually what a Yuzu was, but now it's found its groove and found its straps. It's just a great, versatile, tonic water that goes great with any London Dry Style gin or any floral gin, for that fact anyway. So it'll be one of those two.
[00:33:22] Ray Latif: You're making me thirsty. I gotta go find myself a bottle of East Imperial. Tony, it's been so great speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Appreciate you sitting down with me. I know it's dinner time right now for you and your family, so hopefully you didn't miss too much of the meal.
[00:33:39] East Imperial: No, thank you very much, and thanks for having me, and happy holidays to everybody.
[00:33:46] Ray Latif: That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. you
