[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello, and thanks for tuning in to Taste Radio, the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry. I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and I'm with my BevNET and Nosh colleagues, John Craven, Mike Schneider, and Jacqui Brugliera. In this episode, we're joined by Joshua Ellis, the founder and CEO of premium cocktail mixer brand Withco Cocktails, discuss how he's managed With Company amid a year of hyper growth and a strategy for maintaining momentum. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. Of course, we'd love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Are you motivated to listen to this interview with Joshua Ellis after that intro that I gave? I felt like that was a powerful intro, one that would wet the palette of listeners in terms of what they want to hear in this episode. You guys feel the same way? Am I doing a good job? Definitely. Always. I'm hypnotized by your voice. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. And give myself a Barry Horowitz style pat on the back there. I said, WWF referenced any of you wrestling fans out there. Anyone, did you guys watch, grew up watching wrestling? Oh yeah, absolutely. Not a memory for me.
[00:01:25] SPEAKER_??: Okay.
[00:01:25] Joshua Ellis: That's fine. I don't remember Barry Horowitz, but I hope that nobody just comes running out and hits you over the head with a chair.
[00:01:33] Ray Latif: No, he was the kind of guy that wasn't really a star. He was like the kind of dude who was always in matches where he would always lose. Oh, yeah. One of those guys like Mario Mancini. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Apparently, John Craven made his big comeback this past weekend. John Craven being one of the big WWE stars nowadays. I guess he was he was out of the circuit for a bit, but he's back. So I don't know how this relates to the food and beverage industry, but we're going with it. We're going with it. Is that your Moonlight WWE podcast, Ray? Yes, it's called The Razor's Edge. Yeah, that's my WDB podcast. Look for that on Apple podcasts or wherever your podcasts are streamed and downloaded.
[00:02:14] Joshua Ellis: Is that a real podcast?
[00:02:16] Ray Latif: No, you know, The Razor's Edge was my radio show when I was at Boston University. That was the name of my show.
[00:02:23] Joshua Ellis: I was just going to say it would suck if that podcast name were something highly offensive.
[00:02:30] Ray Latif: is correct to our listeners too. That's a good point. I should probably check on that. If you do find the Razor's Edge podcast, if there is one out there and if it has offensive material too in it. No, it's about investing. Okay, good.
[00:02:44] Joshua Ellis: I was going to say, if you're listening to this podcast and that suggestion from Ray is still in it, then no, we successfully Googled it later and it's not offensive.
[00:02:52] Ray Latif: Okay, good. Good, good, good. Yeah, my radio show was called Razor's Edge. I focused on classic rock. That was my thing, classic rock. That was many, many years ago. We're talking about 2021 now. And John Craven, you just came back from your first vacation of 2021. Is that correct?
[00:03:12] Joshua Ellis: If you want to call it a vacation. I don't know. I got on a plane.
[00:03:15] Withco Cocktails: I would count that.
[00:03:18] Ray Latif: Yeah, I guess going on vacation. Yeah, well, that counts. That counts. You weren't like working every day. Or maybe you were. I don't know. You tell me.
[00:03:26] Joshua Ellis: Uh, I don't know. You know, I think I was out in San Diego and was out there, saw Jackie. I didn't see very much of you, but I saw you.
[00:03:35] Withco Cocktails: Yeah, a couple times.
[00:03:37] Joshua Ellis: as well as some of our other team out there. Yeah, it was a good time. Got to have beers and dinner with Joe Caracci, who edits this podcast. He had some nice things to say about you, Ray. He said you guys were a well-oiled machine, although I kept, I think I asked him twice. Where he keeps the relative voodoo doll in his house that he's just stabbing when he can't anymore And I asked him if he had nightmares that were in your voice.
[00:04:07] Ray Latif: He denied both I not sure I believe him though So well, I know when he asked me to hand in the material You know from week to week if I'm a little late if I'm a like a day late or something like that My knee starts killing me and I'm sure that's him with the Ray Latif voodoo doll, just grinding that needle into my knee. Or it just could be old age. It's one of the two. Well, as part of your travels to San Diego, John Craven, and I keep saying John Craven, even though you're the only John on this show, but I'm going to continue to do with this. All right. Cause I might reference Jon Landis in a second.
[00:04:42] Withco Cocktails: I mean, there's a million other Johns at that.
[00:04:44] Ray Latif: Uh, as part of your travels, as part of your travels to San Diego, you also visited the, uh, new or relatively new Athletic Brewing brewery out in San Diego. Awesome.
[00:04:59] Joshua Ellis: I did. It's not a new brewery, though, because it used to be ballast points barrel aging brewery. But right. Yeah, I got to catch up with Bill and Jon Landis. Join me for the tour. I don't know his first time I had been in a like food or beverage production facility since the start of the pandemic. So it felt sort of like old times. But yeah, I mean, it's just crazy to see how much they're scaling up and You know, it seems like one of those companies that we were talking about this just, you know, if I come back next summer, it's probably gonna look totally different. But yeah, those guys are doing a really impressive job and got to sample some fresh Athletic Brewing, like right out of the lawn, which was pretty tasty at 11 o'clock in the morning. But yeah, that was definitely one of the highlights of the trip. While you were in San Diego, I was on the Cape and I saw Athletic Brewing pretty much everywhere. I mean, they're doing a good job of getting it out there right now.
[00:05:55] Withco Cocktails: And especially in San Diego, I feel like every party that I go to, there's always, you know, a non-alcohol option now, whether it's seltzer water. And now I've been seeing Athletic Brewing seeing their day pack and their, their IPA. And I think across the board, people are really surprised by the quality of the beer and how it tastes so similar. I mean, it tastes just like a really good IPA, so.
[00:06:18] Joshua Ellis: One other little note about my visit at Athletic Brewing, Bill just still was super impressed that he had gone from Taste Radio listener to subject of a really good Taste Radio interview. So perseverance pays off, right?
[00:06:32] Withco Cocktails: I love that.
[00:06:33] Ray Latif: Nice work, Bill. For sure, for sure. Yeah, that episode we published on February 16th of 2021. search for it on Taste Radio or wherever you listen to Taste Radio. It is a great episode. I always say this, we always have great episodes and great interviews. That one is really insightful in terms of how Bill thought about approaching a legacy category, albeit one that hasn't seen much growth in many years. And as he put it, uncovered a billion-dollar opportunity that was hidden in plain sight. Funny story about that interview that I referenced in that episode with Bill, I was probably wearing this exact same blue shirt. Although it was better ironed than it is today. I didn't have time to do a great ironing job, so I did the thing where I ironed while I was wearing the shirt. Folks at home, don't ever do that. That's a very dangerous thing to do.
[00:07:30] Joshua Ellis: Oh, there's only one shirt? Ray, I thought you were like Steve Jobs with the closet full. I thought he had a, like the equivalent of a tuxedo t-shirt. I mean, we're on, you know, Zoom here, right? So it could just be a t-shirt.
[00:07:42] Ray Latif: It looks like a blue button-down shirt. It is a blue button-down shirt, but I'm worried about when I take the shirt off and I look at myself and whether or not I seriously burned myself with that iron. So once again, public service announcement, do not iron your shirt while you're wearing it. However, if you're wearing a Taste Radio t-shirt, those things never wrinkle, so you don't have to ever worry about those.
[00:08:04] Joshua Ellis: No, good quality shirts. Fun little anecdote was wearing mine while in San Diego at the La Jolla Farmer's Market. I don't know. Sometimes I'm just clueless and wearing some swag. But anyway, I went up to a little booth service. I felt like I was at a mini trade show or something, but a bunch of companies that we knew there. I went up to the Babe Kombucha booth, which is like a local.
[00:08:31] Withco Cocktails: Nice.
[00:08:32] Joshua Ellis: kombucha brand and delicious kombucha. The guy who was there, this kind of Travis, who's their head brewer, who I forgot I had met a couple of years ago at the same farmer's market. He said, Hey, I listened to that podcast. And I'm like, Oh, my knee-jerk response was, well, I hope it doesn't suck. And then he said, no, no, it's good. And then he asked me if I was on there and I basically apologized that he had to meet me and not Ray, who has the better voice. So, but yeah, good times. Wearing the t-shirt has benefits sometimes, maybe, I don't know.
[00:09:06] Withco Cocktails: I'm going to have to start wearing my swag to all the farmer's markets now.
[00:09:09] Joshua Ellis: Yeah, there you go. Good luck. Yeah, we're just going to ask you what it's like to work with Ray Jackie, so be prepared.
[00:09:14] Withco Cocktails: I'll be ready.
[00:09:16] Ray Latif: Well, if you want your very own Taste Radio t-shirt, this is my segue here. If you want your very own Taste Radio t-shirt, it's very easy to get one. Just ask. We'd ask that you please review us in the Apple Podcasts app or whatever platform you listen to. Send us a screenshot of your view, your mailing address, and the size of the t-shirt you want to ask at Taste Radio. We'll get that out to you right away. Once again, free t-shirts, free Taste Radio t-shirts can be yours. You don't have to leave a review, but we'd recommend that you do and we'd love you if you did. So thank you very much in advance for considering it. All right, big news in the world of Speed Dating, that is our world in which we connect industry experts to brands. Jackie, what's going on with Speed Dating?
[00:10:05] Withco Cocktails: We have a lot of Speed Dating on tap. So we have a bunch of Speed Dating events scheduled throughout the end of the year. We have a handful each month. We have a mix of investor Speed Dating. We also have PR Speed Dating. We just had designer Speed Dating.
[00:10:20] Joshua Ellis: PR Speed Dating? What's that, Jackie?
[00:10:22] Withco Cocktails: I know. So PR Speed Dating is actually something new that we are having next month. And it puts PR agencies in touch with brands. So if you're looking to, you know, take a look at your messaging, your PR strategy, your communication strategy, you can check that out. So for the agencies that are participating, we have Rachel K Public Relations, Trust Relations, Blaze PR, and Pace PR. And we do have two PR Speed Dating in the works. So take a look at the calendar, BevNET.com backslash calendar. You'll see all of the upcoming dates. And we do have retail Speed Dating that's returning in October. So a lot of great opportunities to meet a variety of experts. As an insider to BevNET and Nosh, you can participate in any of them. So take a look at our site and check out the upcoming dates.
[00:11:16] Joshua Ellis: And it doesn't matter if you already have investment or PR company, or you just want to get some, you know, some advice or see what's out there or, you know, just, it's a great opportunity for new and established companies to meet people in the industry, to do some networking, ask some of your hardest questions and get some answers.
[00:11:36] Ray Latif: You know where else you can do that? BevNET Live and Nosh Live, which are back and will be back in person this December at the Lowe's Santa Monica Beach Hotel. I can't stress enough how excited we are to see everyone back at those events. If you don't have tickets yet, you should get on that. Just head to BevNET.com slash events. These events obviously are can't miss events for the industry. Once again, head to betnet.com slash events to get your tickets. Get him now because they are flying off the website. Is that thing I didn't say flying up to off the shelf, but flying off the website is that right? Shelves are sure why not? They can fly off the website, right? That's what you want them to do, right? We have a stack of tickets flying off the shelf.
[00:12:22] Joshua Ellis: There's some great discounts now for early registration as well as for insiders, so go check it out. That's a good point.
[00:12:30] Ray Latif: Yeah. Some folks I'm hoping to see at the event are the founders of some companies whose brands I've fallen in love with over the past couple of weeks, starting with Afia. Afia is a maker of frozen falafel and kibbeh. women-owned, and man, I can't stress enough how hard it is to find good falafel. And when you have frozen products like these, where you can just pop it out of the bag, put it in your toaster oven, however you prepare these, these are such a godsend. You start your afternoon wondering, okay, I'm busy, I don't have time for lunch, I need something healthy, I need something easy, and these are just that. Also, shout out to the folks behind BrazeeBite or BrizzeeBite, however you want to pronounce the name of the brand, which is known for their cheese breads, their traditional cheese breads. They have unleashed, unveiled, unleashed, however you want to say that, too. A couple of new product lines, including these Pizzanatas, which are, as you might expect, empanadas or empanada-style pizza bites. This one I have in my hand is cheese and uncured pepperoni. These are absolutely incredible. I don't know how else to describe it. Are they mini-rare?
[00:13:45] Joshua Ellis: Are they bite-size empanadas with pizza flavoring? That's ridiculous. They're like pizza bites, but they're empanada style.
[00:13:52] Ray Latif: Exactly. Pizzanatas, guys. Pizzanatas. They also came out with a new line of breakfast sandwiches. I'm holding in my hand the double egg and cheddar. The really interesting thing about these are that they have this microwave crisping sleeve, which actually really works. And so at the outset, you're like, how is this actually going to be a toasty breakfast sandwich when it comes to the microwave? But that is exactly what it is. It has this I don't know, the high-tech microwave and crisping sleeve. You put it in your microwave for a couple of minutes, it comes out, and you've got this toasted breakfast sandwich. It's incredible.
[00:14:28] Joshua Ellis: It becomes essentially a greasy chip buddy at that point without the fries?
[00:14:34] Ray Latif: Without the grease. Without the grease, yes.
[00:14:36] Joshua Ellis: I got it. I got it. I want those, Ray. Ray, you get all the good stuff. All the goodies. He's got a convenience store under his desk.
[00:14:45] Ray Latif: I think some of these are at the office, no? Suspect. All right, all right. A couple more quick things here. Amy's, did you know Amy's Kitchen, if you listened to the last podcast episode that we did with the founders of Amy's Kitchen recently, I had no idea that they market candy bars. They make and market candy bars. So they sent me a few. This is their Sunny candy bar. It's made with roasted almonds, organic chocolate, and coconut. It's like the best of Mounds and Almond Joy. in a single bar and it's non-GMO and made with mostly organic ingredients. This is amazing stuff.
[00:15:22] Joshua Ellis: Just so you know, listeners, Ray just asked which one has almonds, Mounds or Almond Joy.
[00:15:29] Ray Latif: Okay, I did ask that and we did cut that, but Mike wanted to include it, so we re-included this. But yeah, if you have a chance to listen to that episode, really amazing and remarkable story behind that brand. One where they're now a $600 million brand, still independently owned, fiercely independently owned, as the owners like to describe where they were, where they are, and where they're going is outlined in that interview. Pretty amazing stuff. Last but not least, I want to bring up a new product from a fast-growing brand called Free Rain. Free Rain, a maker of adaptogen-infused sparkling waters. This is their new Arousal variety. It's got pink grapefruit and maca. I think you can imagine what the function is for this product. It's described as the first and only sparkling water to nourish libido, enhance sexual energy, and support hormonal balance naturally. I was going to say, Ray, I'm having trouble imagining, but there it is right there. Yeah, I haven't tried this yet. I'm not sure when is the right time to try it. I'm glad you didn't try it before the podcast, Ray. No, I mean, I think this is interesting stuff. I think they make a range of functional sparkling waters. This one, I think it's a pretty interesting variety and I'm interested to try it. I'm going to try the arousal right now. I'm going to do it right now. Here we go.
[00:16:53] Joshua Ellis: So for me, on my desk this week is Corsa's Hydration Tonic. And I've got two flavors here. I've got the orange spritz and ginger hibiscus.
[00:17:03] Ray Latif: So did Corsa move to cans or are they still in bottles and that's just a different product line?
[00:17:08] Joshua Ellis: It's a different product, right? This is their hydration tonic. It's 60 calories of just, it's packed with flavor. This one's ginger hibiscus, and it's got Jamaican allspice, hydrating minerals from organic coconuts.
[00:17:24] Ray Latif: Very cool. Mm-hmm. It's delicious. So is this Free Rain. I'm telling you, you know, for a pink grapefruit flavor, this is really good.
[00:17:32] Joshua Ellis: He's already perking up, guys. Look out.
[00:17:35] Ray Latif: It's hard to make a grapefruit sparkling water that tastes really good. Spindrift does an amazing job with theirs, but this is really high quality. This is just on flavor alone. Function, I can't get into just yet, but good stuff.
[00:17:48] Withco Cocktails: I'm curious if you should only be drinking one of them, or what happens when you drink three?
[00:17:55] SPEAKER_??: Oh my gosh.
[00:17:57] Ray Latif: I have half a case in front of me, so we'll see. Please don't tell us.
[00:18:01] Joshua Ellis: I guess we'll see what happens.
[00:18:03] Withco Cocktails: Yeah. So I have a variety of beverages on my desk that I'm not going to be sampling right now, but I will be sampling later because they have some alcohol in them. But we have some great samples because we've been getting a lot of applications in for our RTD cocktail showdown, which is going to be broadcast next month, August 12th. So a couple that showed up on my desk, there's Post Meridiem Spirit Coke. So they have these cool small cans where all you do is you shake the can and then you pour it over ice. So this is an old fashioned, really simple ingredients. Obviously, you can see it right here listed on the front, and they have a variety of different canned cocktails. And then I also have Ranch 2.0, which also has a variety of premixed canned cocktails ready to drink. This one's Gin Fizz, but their ranch water is just tequila and soda water. So they have some great, great products as well. And then I have Side Sideyard Cocktails. So this one's a peach tea. and this is made with Rebru Vodka, which they are actually based here in San Diego. I believe that it is also by the founders of Thorn Brewing. During COVID, they had a surplus of Beer and Bites were able to repurpose that surplus and start creating spirits. So that's kind of a cool concept behind these products.
[00:19:25] Ray Latif: Absolutely. Very excited for Withco Cocktails showdown, BevNET's cocktail showdown, the inaugural cocktail showdown, again, streaming on August 12th. 10 brands, one winner, $10,000. So exciting. In a prize package. And of course, a trophy. We have to create a new trophy for that, don't we? Oh, yeah.
[00:19:44] Withco Cocktails: Yeah, we will be having a trophy.
[00:19:47] Ray Latif: John Craven can design that. I think he'll know the exact specifications of a cocktail glass, or maybe we can do it in a rocks glass. A cocktail shaker? A giant cocktail shaker? Yes, yes. That's a good idea, actually. And perfect segue here, speaking Withco Cocktails, let's get to our interview with Joshua Ellis, the founder and CEO of Withco Cocktails.
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[00:20:54] Ray Latif: Based in Nashville, WITHCO, which stands for With Company, got off the ground in 2016 as a side project for Josh, a former real estate investor who saw an opportunity for a brand of small batch mixers made with fresh ingredients and no preservatives. Packaged in 16-ounce bottles and wrapped in sleek minimalist labels, WITHCO markets eight varieties, including an old-fashioned, honey sour, agave margarita, and a ginger mule that's named Jackass. Forced to rethink a 2020 retail plan upended by the pandemic, Withco instead weaved together a DIY and paid social strategy that fueled a surge of direct-to-consumer sales. Last year's growth has given way to revenue expectations of $6 million for 2021 and a staff of 25 employees that continues to expand. In the following interview, Josh explained how, despite being With Company's sole employee in early 2020, he planned and executed upon a hastily revised business strategy, how he's thoughtfully expanding the brand's retail footprint, and what he means when he says that he's quote, building to sell. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm on a call with Joshua Ellis, the founder and CEO of Withco Cocktails. Josh, great to see you.
[00:22:12] John Craven: Good to see you too, Ray. Thanks for having me on the show.
[00:22:14] Ray Latif: Thanks so much for being with me. I'm here in our studio at BevNET headquarters in Newton, Mass. You're in your quasi headquarters down in Nashville. Tell folks where you're at.
[00:22:24] John Craven: Yeah, so we are a couple of miles outside of downtown Nashville where we do all of our office, warehousing, fulfillment. Specifically, I'm inside of a, I guess, a mobile pop-up shop, if you will. We built a trailer on wheels so we can pop around town, meet customers on the street, sample product, and sell product out of it. So it's a little, about 14 foot, Super modern little pop-up shop. So just a way to meet customers that are coming to Nashville with all the tourism we have. So I now have it in our office and it works like a little mobile office while we're not using it out in the streets.
[00:23:03] Ray Latif: One thing you told me before we got on the mics is that this is a big week for you guys. And it's a big week because you had a huge sales milestone.
[00:23:16] John Craven: Yeah it's one of those mornings you know where you gather the team to celebrate. And I guess as a as kind of a founder you look around and you're like man we're doing this. This was all a dream. And then the next thing you know you're celebrating and there's more people in the room amazing people all singular focus. So yeah we got together today to celebrate. Last year was a wild year for us from the standpoint of growth. And we had a lot of things that we didn't think we were going to do last year. And 2021 has been a very similar rhythm if you will. So we broke last year's revenue in May of this year and just wanted to take time to really steward some celebrations. So we brought the whole team and we did confetti bombs and balloons and shot some content. And So 2021 has been a fun year so far and I just wanted to recognize that with the team. So it was a fun morning and if you guys end up following us on social, you'll start to see some of that content go out in the next week or so.
[00:24:18] Ray Latif: Very cool and congratulations. Well, one piece of content that I really was interested in hearing about was a video that you posted on Instagram last year, referencing a pretty popular Drake song called 0 to 100. What was your message there?
[00:24:37] John Craven: So last year was a wild year for us. And I think in that there was a lot of internal processing that I was sharing on social media of like less of look what we're doing and more of look what we're learning as we're doing. And the analogy there is that I think there's this illusion in society, especially in entrepreneurship and the social space, that everyone around you is killing it, right? And you're behind. And that's, it's a notion that I've dealt with is, man, everyone around me is like, it feels like they're at 100. They're breaking the mold. They're doing great things in life. And I think for me, we kind of put people on a pedestal of like, they're at 100. And I just, I think at the end of the day, we assume that it just happened for them. Yet we rarely see the whole story. So for me this year to 100 is the reality that kind of in life and business you don't go from zero to 100. You go from zero to 10. You go from 10 to 20 20 to 30 and so on. And I think it's in that sequence that great organizations are built and created and also great lives are created when there's a slow and steady pace.
[00:25:45] Ray Latif: Well, certainly you guys didn't go zero to 100 because you actually started With Company back in 2016 and you've seen remarkable growth over the last year and a half. Let's back up a second and talk about the genesis of Withco. What was the inspiration behind the idea? What were you trying to accomplish?
[00:26:05] John Craven: You know, we originally set out to create with the space was remarkably different. There was not as much of an emphasis on fresh ingredients and quality and better for you. It was at that time just a lot of plastic bottles and preservatives and things you couldn't. really pronounced and ultimately the mixer space wasn't something that was wildly, not acceptable, but as broadly noticed as it is now. I feel like now it's a very exploratory space where you see something at Target or on the shelf and you're like, man, the branding's great, the ingredients are great. But at that time, there wasn't as much in the market, but less about product. I think that the mission behind Withco is helping the way people gather today. And what I mean by that is we are community focused. So Withco spelled W-I-T-H-C-O stands for With Company. So our mission statement is to really help people gather one bottle at a time to drink With Company.
[00:27:08] Ray Latif: So for folks listening, they should understand what Withco sort of represents from a branding perspective. It has a very luxury feel to it. This doesn't feel like sort of an everyday brand, the most accessible brand to folks looking for a cocktail mixer. That doesn't mean that it isn't an incredible brand. It just feels like it's for a more elevated type audience, a more elevated type of cocktail consumer. Was that the original intention or did you sort of learn that that's who your consumer would eventually be?
[00:27:43] John Craven: We built it for ourselves. And what I mean by that is we built it to solve a problem in our lives. And in doing so, we built it at a premium level for how we enjoy things. So what I mean is, you know, I'm willing to spend a little bit more for a better meal and be going out and having a great dinner or going on a good vacation. It's one of those feelings where you want better for you, if that's a priority to you. And at that time, I don't know if we were so focused on being the most premium or the most expensive or anything. We just saw these bottles in our mind. And I know if you're watching the video like we saw. simple, clean, aesthetic packaging. And we saw it in glass because we knew that was going to be quality. And we saw it, if you look at our bottles, you'll notice we don't just wrap a sticker around it. Like every 90% of what's in the liquor store, maybe 100% of what's on the market, if it's not in a can, it's in glass. you generally just have a around it. And for us th of not being able to see t able to see the fresh in without preservatives and see the freshly squeezed the mint so you can see of the ginger root and st And to give this really beautiful package that when you're in a liquor store or you see our product out in the market or online or through advertisement, you're like, what is that? Is that like a luxury shampoo or is that a fragrance? there's almost this allure to why does this look so different? And yes, we do have a little bit of a higher price point, but I think the packaging really leads to a level of trust. So I think when we set out, we didn't really know the industry or the space. I think we just had this vision in our mind of a drop, which is our logo, and then the word Withco, and it would say With Company Cocktails. And I think it just evolved into being a beautifully premium product when you look at the space now. But I will mention one thing that I think would be really kind of a perfect segue here. When I think about creating things, I like to think about the customer experience and build backwards, but not just like, how did it, not in the sense of, are they going to enjoy it? What I mean is, what does it feel like? I think through the senses, right? What does it feel like when you see Withco for the first time? what comes to mind from just a visual standpoint, right? Next, what goes through your mind when you touch it and feel it? So now we're moving into another sense. And it's like, we thought about that process. And we thought about what we wanted it to feel like. Do you feel cheap? Do you feel mistrust? Or do you feel quality? And are you kind of drawn into, man, I wonder what this tastes like? Because at the end of the day, everyone at Beverage knows, unless someone tries your product, you only have a limited amount of time to really earn a level of trust for them to invest in that product. And so I think the customer experience, even before they try it, was something that we honed in on right away because it's a busy world out there in the beverage space. It's just, it's created this really unique audience where I think quality over convenience is a priority to our customers.
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[00:31:52] Ray Latif: How much did you take into account social media when you were designing the package? Did you take into account things like Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter? Because I found your brand on Instagram. And when I saw it, I said, my goodness, this is fantastic branding. They have a great presence on social. And I would love to, as you mentioned, see it in my hand, feel it, and eventually taste this product in a cocktail. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, A lot of people have had the same experience that I have, finding this brand on social, trying it, buying it, repeat buying it.
[00:32:29] John Craven: Obviously, as you are growing outside of your natural territory, which for us is natural, it's like, how do we reach our customer? And so for us, it's how do we show up on social? How do we stay true to our message and meet our customer? And obviously, online advertisement, Amazon Prime, and starting to move into other state distribution, It starts with social, because as a young company, that's where you can actually get into the market at the least amount of cost, especially when you don't have a whole team or sales reps out pushing the brand. And so for us, being super scrappy and being a company that didn't go in With Company seed capital other than my thousand dollars, we had to go to where we knew we could reach the most amount of people. And on that note, talk about scrappy. Last year, in January and February, we had no social presence outside of organic social media, just posting. And I didn't have any money to budget for marketing or Facebook ad spend or anything. I tell you, I spent hours a day locked at home because of the shutdown. One employee, right? I think I had another buddy helping with liquor store delivery in my 20 stores, but for the most part, I was the only employee at the beginning of 2020. And I sat on Instagram, went to hashtag cocktail, hashtag happy hour, hashtag tequila, hashtag vodka, hashtag whiskey. And I went and found everybody I could find that was talking about liquor and cocktails and happy hours, virtual happy hour, any hashtag possible. And I would go in like thousands a day and I would engage and I would say, what whiskey are you using? And I had to almost go out and virtually tap. thousands of people on the shoulder not just to not to spam them but to just like show up and say hey we like to drink to it with co. I see you like whiskey. They find we have an old fashioned. And what I'd see is after I would engage with people I could see traffic to the Web site and we'd start to see sales. So I use social media, even when we didn't have money, just to connect and engage with people that are out there sharing a similar interest. So if you are listening to this and you're like, where do I start? It's like, go start building your first hundred people and don't just spam them, actually engage with them, start a conversation, figure out what they like, give them a promo code, whatever you need to do, because you need to get people tasting your product. And so to go back to social, like now we, really have an amazing strategic advertising plan and a budget for it. But prior to that, using social to just organically engage with customers, those were early adopters as well as launching a Kickstarter back in 2017. We just mobilized social as best we could with what we had at that time.
[00:35:20] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think you slid into my DMs, actually, now that I recall it. I can tell you why.
[00:35:24] John Craven: I remember listening to Taste Radio and Alix from Bev was on there. And I just, man, like the way that I was able to connect with her leadership and culture. And of course, I've connected with her since. And I was like, man, I'd love to talk to Ray. And we connected. And I think at that time, I was like a one man team. We're very small. And in a kind way, you were like, let's stay in touch.
[00:35:52] Ray Latif: I think I was probably in a nutty state of mind, too, because I think it was right at the outside of the pandemic. And I'm just like, I'm not sure what the heck is going on. But I'm glad it all worked out, because here we are right now, you being on Taste Radio, me talking to you.
[00:36:05] John Craven: I have this quote of jump out of the nest and grow your wings on the way down. And for me, it was be so uncomfortable that you have to figure it out. You have to solve these problems. You have to wear 90 hats as the accountant, the marketing guy, the inventory guy, the delivery guy, like wear them all. And then as With Company grows, slowly find amazing people that you can pass your hats out to and truly become founder, become leader. My word for 2020 going in was discomfort. Like most people probably choose words of joy and passion and inspiration and motivation. Mine was like, I want to just be uncomfortable. Because if I'm uncomfortable, then that means we're always learning. We're always adapting. We're always changing. We're becoming better. And the moment we get comfortable, that means we're not challenging the status quo. We're not bending the rules. We're not coloring outside the lines. And so 2020 was kind of a rebellious year where we just, we broke the mold and jumped to the top of the chart in many ways.
[00:37:06] Ray Latif: Well, the naysayers and some I call them the haters might say, well, they were lucky during the pandemic because liquor sales were up because people were drinking at home. Now people are out in bars probably more than they even were in 2019. Everyone wants to be out. So why would people continue buying this product? Why would people keep investing their money into this brand if they're going to be going out Withco Cocktails bars, to bars, et cetera, but you've bucked that thought, you've bucked that line of thinking in that you are continuing to grow, that your product is selling in stores. How do you explain that? Because again, so much of your success in 2020 and into 2021 was due to the pandemic.
[00:37:47] John Craven: Well, 2020, I think, reshaped the behavior of at-home drinking, right? I mean, we were forced to do it. So in doing so, some people came a little intentional or bougie or strategic about how they did it. It's like, well, now I'm going to go explore mixers. I found this one. What else is out there? And it actually put mixers and seltzers too, but they were kind of already on the map. It put exploring different ways of enjoying liquor at home It shifted a behavior. Right. And so when people found with code during that, I think when they started getting on the other side of pandemic. They were a part of the brand. They were part of the mission. Our repeat customer is wild right now. And it's because of how we engage on social with them and how we engage in our email and SMS and just different ways that we teach them how to use the product. And so I think a lot of our customer base wasn't like, oh, I tried that in the pandemic. It's like, no, I tried it during the pandemic. But because the pandemic showed us that being at home and having guests over I think there's a lot of people that that quality of life is actually more enriching sometimes Thorn Brewing at the bar every weekend. And that's the best way to meet a new customer is them exploring it with friends and them actually having a taste test and not seeing an advertisement being like, I wonder if it's good. but then actually experiencing it With Company for their first time ever learning about the brand. So I think that plays a testament. It's probably an underlying intentional campaign that maybe we did not know we were doing, but it plays in really well. So yeah, that's number one. Obviously, number two is the more liquor stores we're in, the more retail outlets we begin to go into and start rolling out in other states. People are always going to go to liquor stores. And I think not everybody likes to drink straight liquor. Not everybody knows how to make their liquor taste great. And I think people, because of COVID, are open to trying things in their local liquor store. And that's where we meet thousands and thousands of new customers is behind in the liquor store. I think COVID just opened the door for people to explore more ways to enjoy drinking at home. And again, some people use our stuff as a seltzer or a spritz, or they put soda water instead of liquor, and it's like a fresh ingredient soda. So there's multiple ways to use the product, and I think our customers are figuring that out.
[00:40:18] Ray Latif: It's interesting to hear you talk about liquor stores and engaging with liquor stores on a regular basis because you have to invest a lot of time to get each individual store. Whereas if you are engaging one retail buyer at a particular chain, you can get into hundreds, if not thousands of stores pretty quickly. And I think that's something that people that are listening to this podcast would say is, you know, I don't want to just get into a handful of retailers here and there that I have to spend so much time working on each individual store. You know, I'd love to just be in target and 500 to 1000 stores are chain retailers at all a part of the plan, the strategy, or do you find that you're getting a more nuanced experience and getting more personalized service by being in these individual liquor stores?
[00:41:03] John Craven: It's funny how there's zero to 100 concept. For me, us getting individualized stores was how our distributor best brands in Tennessee saw us and said, wait a second, you guys went and opened 40 stores on your own and you're doing tastings, six to seven, eight tastings in liquor stores per weekend. And we're like, yeah. And they go, yeah. how fast can we get a contract with you guys? Because what it did is it made them say, man, this brand is building something that aligns with how we want to integrate with them because they're getting out there and they're beating the streets and they're putting 100% of their profits back in to marketing and meeting the customer. And that's where we're funding With Company right now. It's like, great, we made all this money, but we dumped it right back into new tasting reps and new distributor programs. Yes, we do want to move into total lines nationwide and move into Target. I think Target is our ideal customer at the end of the day. Those type of outlets would be great. But those conversations, oftentimes it's easier for us to get there. And we have a route to market plan that spells out how we wanna move through 2020, 21, 22, 23. And when you're able to see states across the country be integrated into your marketing plan, it gives you a sense of peace that like, okay, there is a plan, we'll get there, but we gotta get there in sequence. And right now it is open a few stores. Work those stores really well. Get a distributor. Have that distributor support. Also, replicate in the next state. Replicate in the next state. So when I say build to sell, it really is more the mentality and the decisions we make to build something that has systems, processes, procedures, people, and profit. They're like those four P's. Do we have good people? Do we have a good product? Do we have good procedures in place? And are we profitable or are we moving in that direction? I want to build something that is attractive. Which to me means it was built right. And so that is kind of that built to sell mentality. We may never sell this thing. Who knows. It may be something that we build right. We love it. We have a great team. But I think in beverage there is oftentimes a mentality of like market share and growing fast and scaling quick. And if you do it right, there oftentimes is a strategic that comes along or an investment group that's like, hey, we love this. And for Withco, I could see it being more of a multi-year transition where they go, hey, we love the team you have. And we love how you guys operate, we want to come in with resources such as money, such as connections and resources to really get the with co brand and more places than in a faster amount of time that maybe we could have done on our own. I don't necessarily see it as a buyout in the app and in regards to, well, we're done time to go home. I'm more interested in a strategic alignment that allows my team to continue what we do well while aligning with the strategic brand that does what they do well. In addition, it just expedites growth. If there is something at the end of that, I don't know if this is too much to share or not, but I have structured my company in multiple classes. One of those classes is specifically for employees and people in With Company that have served well here and, you know, my goal is. has been from the very beginning to make sure that if and when something were to happen in the future, that I take care of my people. And for me, that's a cost that I'm excited for. I love, I feel like that's that leadership mentality inside of me is if something were to happen, it's actually going to be a good thing. We're not gonna make a decision or a sale or some sort of alignment that my people wouldn't come first in that decision. We're very much family oriented. And a lot of these people I've walked with for five, six, seven years prior. And I've learned how to bring family and friends into With Company, but also lead and have amazing boundaries and emotional conversations that keep us aligned and help us to work well. And they would be first and foremost in any decision. So I don't wake up every day going, when are we going to sell? I wake up every day and go, is everyone happy? Are we healthy? Are we growing? And are we loving what we're doing? And maybe it's a bookmark down the road that, you know, maybe there's another podcast that we talk about if and when that happens, but I'm just excited for where we're at for the time being, for sure.
[00:45:44] Ray Latif: Yeah, I'm excited for you guys as well. And Josh, I'm personally excited for you. I feel like from when we first connected till now, the growth rate that you're on is so amazing to see. Congratulations on all that you've accomplished to this point.
[00:46:00] John Craven: Yeah, hopefully this story is, inspiring for maybe some people that are a few chapters behind us, maybe even for some that are in front of us, but for people that are have an idea and are trying to just figure out how to go and how to grow and how to and how to get started. Hopefully me being able to break down a lot of those initial stage decisions and commitment and focus will resonate.
[00:46:23] Ray Latif: So I had some fun doing this for sure. I did as well, and I think everyone listening is going to take value from our conversation today. Once again, Josh, thanks so much for being with me, and yeah, let's catch up again soon. Awesome, man. Cheers. All right. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks for our guest, Joshua Ellis. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
