[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello friends! I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with Kaveh Zamanian, the founder of Rabbit Hole Distillery, an award-winning maker of premium whiskey. Kaveh Zamanian is a cool customer. The founder of Rabbit Hole Distillery, Kaveh exudes calmness and his relaxed personality is immediately apparent. That's not to say that the entrepreneur hasn't felt the anxiety and strain of building a brand. As he tells it, Kaveh has spent many nights on his knees, quote, praying to whoever would listen, that his vision for Rabbit Hole would come to fruition. A former clinical psychologist, Kaveh launched Rabbit Hole in 2012. The distillery's name is derived from Cave's, quote, passionate dissent into the practice of distilling fine spirits, specifically rye and bourbon. Chief Whiskey is produced in small batches at Rabbit Hole's state-of-the-art 55,000-square-foot distillery in Louisville, Kentucky, and presented in four core expressions, along with the brand's innovative Founders Collection series. In 2019, French spirits giant Pernod Ricard acquired a majority stake in Rabbit Hole for an undisclosed price. The deal accelerated the brand's distribution across the U.S. and helped it expand internationally. Kaveh has continued to helm Rabbit Hole and added a new title, that of Chief Whiskey Officer at Pernod, in the process. In the following interview, I spoke with Kaveh about how his personal passion for whiskey evolved into a professional journey, how he assembled a team of veteran distillers and spirits professionals early into the development of Rabbit Hole, pitching 1,000 potential investors over the course of two years and how he got 110 of them to say yes, and his current work developing new products and brands, including Mary Dowling Bourbon and Mash & Mallow Whiskey. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm honored to be sitting down with Kaveh Zamanian, who is the founder of Rabbit Hole Distillery and Chief Whiskey officer of Pernod Ricard. Kaveh, great to see you.
[00:02:27] Kaveh Zamanian: Great to see you as well, Ray.
[00:02:28] Ray Latif: Yeah, this is my first time in Louisville, Kentucky. I've been in Kentucky before. Strangely, it's a whole different story. I won't get into it right now, but my first time to Louisville, and it's been pretty amazing. You've been here for a long time.
[00:02:39] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, I moved here about 16 years ago. So hope you're enjoying your stay here so far.
[00:02:44] Ray Latif: You are in a different part of town than I've been in so far. And it's a little bit more quirky, a little bit more dynamic than where I'm staying, which seems to be the more standard stayed area on West Main Street. But I was driving through here and I was like, wow, this is really cool. It feels a little bit like Austin in some ways.
[00:03:00] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, it does. This is a neighborhood called Newloo. It sits right between downtown and some of the older parts of the city like Cherokee Park and Crescent Hill. It's really vibrant, very artistic, very entrepreneurial, and it's really blossomed actually in the last probably 10 years or so. And I think Rabbit Hole is at a pretty significant part in that renaissance of this neighborhood.
[00:03:23] Ray Latif: Yeah, this is a beautiful building. We're in a beautiful conference room in your office here. How long have you been here?
[00:03:28] Kaveh Zamanian: So the distillery, we bought the property in 2014, started planning design in 2016. We're finished with that and started building. We started actually distilling here in 2018, Derby Day 2018.
[00:03:45] Ray Latif: How much of your production is here on premise?
[00:03:49] Kaveh Zamanian: 100%. Everything we do is here. And this is a very unique facility because I describe it as a craft distillery designed to scale. And what that means is that we genuinely do small batch expressions, but collectively, if you put the whole operation together, we're able to produce almost 1.7 million proof gallons, which translates to about somewhere north of 26,000 barrels a year out of this little facility in New Louisville.
[00:04:14] Ray Latif: The rabbit that could. The rabbit that could, exactly. We chatted a while back about your journey as an entrepreneur and you and I have a common passion in wine. I think, if I recall, you originally wanted to become a winemaker?
[00:04:29] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, I grew up in California and this was in the early 80s that I saw what's happening to the wine industry and I had a dream of, you know, buying a farm and starting to make wine. Of course, I was a little kid and my dad thought I'm out of my mind and that was it. That was the end of that dream.
[00:04:48] Ray Latif: Well, wine and whiskey, they're not too, too far apart in that obviously they're both alcoholic beverages. Different, I think, go-to-market strategies for both, but there's something beautiful about being able to create a liquid and do it on your own, literally from farm to bottle. So when you decided to get into Chief Whiskey business, I mean, what really piqued your interest in that space? Because again, you know, there are some similarities between whiskey and wine, but I think launching a whiskey brand seems like it's more complicated than it might seem.
[00:05:25] Kaveh Zamanian: 100%. I think the link is that desire to, as you said, organically make something that not only people are able to enjoy, really brings people together, but also with wine and spirits, there's something lovely about what we leave behind and what people are able to enjoy long after we're gone. So, you know, I'm always mindful of the fact that we have laid down barrels that I will never taste. And hopefully one day people will be able to enjoy Rabbit Chief Whiskey and think about what we've made. So there's that legacy component of it that's really lovely with wine and spirits and the connecting point. You're absolutely right. You know, the challenge with whiskey is that it's one of those things where there's a lot of capital expenditure going in that kind of initial onset, those early chapters. And you really need to stay close to your vision and true to that in order to be able to build something and make something that's ultimately not only it's on a solid foundation business wise, but also it's a product that is going to stand the test of time.
[00:06:30] Ray Latif: The most difficult part, I think, of starting a whiskey brand is that actually distilling is a very complicated process. It's difficult to get a distilling license. It's difficult to do anything without having the experience, but the experience isn't necessarily something that's easily found, at least when you started. Sure. Talk about that process of, oh, I'm going to start a brand, but how do I actually get it off the ground? Because a personal passion is one thing. We talk to entrepreneurs about this all the time, which is, I really want to do this, but actually doing that thing is much more involved than the idea itself.
[00:07:08] Kaveh Zamanian: You know, it started really with just reading a couple of books and getting a little bit more interested in it, taking a couple of classes. But I think really the important kind of fork in the road for me was when I started meeting and working with some of the old timers here in Louisville and in Kentucky. One of the nice things about looking back to 2011-2012 when I started was that there were a lot of folks that were eager to help out, and there's not a whole lot of individuals really jumping in the game. In fact, just to give you a perspective, there's not a single bank in the state of Kentucky that lent money to bourbon when I first started, which is startling when you think about it. Nobody was even thinking about bourbon as a viable business or as a commodity that you can bank on, which has obviously changed quite a bit in the last decade or so.
[00:07:56] Ray Latif: Is that just because of consumption trends or the fact that bourbon wasn't a high growth business?
[00:08:01] Kaveh Zamanian: I don't think it's because it was not a high growth business. I think there was part of that is tied to that where essentially bourbon was in decline for a long time and really beginning, you know, maybe mid 2000s, it started to kind of get a resurgence slowly with some of the craft distilleries and the movement in that front. But I just think that in a lot of ways, Kentucky at the time was somewhat from a business side of it, a little bit behind times, because we had more dry counties than wet, and we had banks lending money to the equine industry rather than the bourbon industry, which is quite peculiar when you really think about it from a risk factor. So there was a lot of elements there. And I realized that a lot of the big players were actually banking in New York rather than banking in Kentucky. So the funding was not there. The resources were not there. But with that said, the bright side of it was there were a lot of amazing master distillers and folks have been in the industry for a long time that were eager to help out. And that even includes folks within the industry, like folks like Chris Morris. I mean, Chris Morris from Woodford was really a champion of some of the smaller distilleries getting up and running. And along those lines, my personal teacher and mentor in those early days was Larry Ebersole. Larry was at one point at the Seagram plant and now is MGP and then was the master distiller for Wild Turkey. He's, I think, personally been responsible for training and educating a lot of us who really were eager to jump in, but we needed that education and understanding of what it takes to make good whiskey.
[00:09:34] Ray Latif: Assembling a great team of people with expertise, with experience, who can mentor you to a place where you have a solid foundation for success. Not, you know, there's no guarantee of success, but at least have that foundation is so important. convincing people to help you. It sounds like there were people who were like, you knock on their door, they'll say, come on in. But in most cases, I feel like that's less the case. That seems like more of an anomaly, at least in the business of consumer brands. Yes, people do want to help, but they just don't have the time. How did you convince those folks that their time was worth spending on you?
[00:10:15] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, you know, I think because it's a multidimensional business, it depends on which side of the business you're referring. On the distilling side, there were a lot of eager master distillers who were happy to help out. And of course, you know, you pay for their time and for all the valuable information and lessons that they're imparting. Other aspects of the business, for example, just the fundamentals of being able to get the right financial officer and get the right forecast and all the other things, or even the money-raising aspect of it. Just to give you an example, I had over 1,000 pitches, and in the end, about 110 investors, small investors, no venture money, that were able to basically believe in me and jumped in with me. But that took a long time. I think that process alone was about two years of knocking on a lot of doors, hearing a lot of no's, and ultimately being able to persevere. So it really depends on what side of the business you're looking at. There's also the legal compliance side of it, which Again, as long as you got the resources to pay for it, Lerman Beverage Law, for example, is one of those resources for me that was very helpful in helping me understand what are the kind of guardrails, if you would, in the industry, what do you need to do from a licensing standpoint, TTB standpoint, and all those things. So there was a lot of great folks. step was to line out what are the categories, what are the areas that I need to focus on from legal, from finance, from production, so on and so forth, and then fight the right people. You either pay for them to teach you or they actually join in. And that was the other piece that I was very fortunate enough at the time that I was able to assemble a great team that they were able to join. Either they went on payroll or they actually got skin in the game. And that's how we got going.
[00:12:04] Ray Latif: So it sounds like you didn't just jump into this blind. I think there are some entrepreneurs who say, okay, I'm going to throw some stuff at a wall, see if it sticks. You came in with a plan. You said, look, I'm going to at least have a solid strategy, a solid business plan. If it doesn't work well, you know, at least I had the proper preparation for my business.
[00:12:26] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, for sure. And I think I, just to frame it up in terms of context, I was, my day job was a psychologist. I was a clinical psychologist for over 20 years. And the transition from psychology to whiskey making, probably good, a good two years where, you know, I got one foot in one, one foot in the other one until I was at a point where it felt like, okay, now I need to be a hundred percent in Chief Whiskey game. And that really was in some ways hedging my bets to a certain extent, particularly because, you know, I had a family with three little kids. It wasn't just about me. It's about family as well. So that hedge and that kind of a progression was really important to make sure that this is not just a pure gamble, but something that's a little more thoughtful.
[00:13:13] Ray Latif: I once spoke with the founder of Nantucket Nectars. He's now the founder of a soda brand called Culture Pop, and he had once said, entrepreneurship is not a hobby. And I think there are some folks that would say, look, you can't have one foot in one place and one foot in another place and actually expect to be successful. and entrepreneurship, but then I see some entrepreneurs and I've talked to some folks who say, look, that's, you can't go into this thing and be broke and not be able to, I guess, fund your personal life, especially if you do have a family. But how do you navigate both jobs effectively? How do you make it such that you're not skimping on what you need to do to be successful as an entrepreneur while still maintaining the income and the, I guess, general expectations of being a parent, being a father, being yourself on the other?
[00:14:12] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, I think, you know, for me personally, I think in some of the colleagues that I've talked to, I think it really pivots around what kind of support network you have. I couldn't possibly do what I did without my wife. You know, the fact that she was able to be behind me, understanding and knowing what it takes both financially in terms of the sacrifice and compromises there, but also emotionally in terms of the time and attention that it takes away from her, the kids, and everything else that I like to do. I mean, there's days that it would have been really great to be on the soccer field with my son as opposed to, you know, hitting the road and trying to make another pitch to raise some money. So that support network, I think for me personally, was key to be able to navigate that terrain. I think without that support network, you're either going to end up sacrificing and losing those relationships, be it professionally or personally, or you're not going to make it. And I think for me, that social support network was really key to be able to begin to transition from one profession to another.
[00:15:13] Ray Latif: Is that how you advise newcomers to the business or just newcomers to consumer brands in general is, look, you can't do this without the proper support network?
[00:15:22] Kaveh Zamanian: No question about it. I think you need the support network unless you really don't give a shit about your support network. I mean, honestly, like if you don't really care about your partner or your kids and you're just 100% focused on what you're going to do, you're going to risk and ultimately potentially lose those relationships. And for me, obviously, that was not the case. I mean, I valued my wife, my children, and as much as I'm passionate about making whiskey, I wasn't about to chuck everything I have in terms of my family for a business. But at the same time, you know, once I have those guys on board, then it actually gave me a lot of courage to be able to push ahead because I knew with Heather behind me, that I feel good about the home front. I know that the kids are taken care of and I'm there when I'm able to be there and together we're able to build something that we can be proud of.
[00:16:14] Ray Latif: Yeah, and looks like it kind of worked out for you. I would say so. You talked about the thousand pitches in two years. Okay, if I'm doing the math correctly, that's over a pitch a day, well over a pitch a day on the road. Why did you feel like you needed to play the field as much as you did? Or was it just necessary to do so?
[00:16:34] Kaveh Zamanian: Well, it really was tied into the vision of what I wanted to create. I started naively thinking that I'm going to be able to have a small operation and maybe a pot still and kind of get going from there. There was more romance than business. But as I started learning about the industry and what it takes to really build a brand, I realized that You know, my vision ultimately is to build a brand that's lasting. And if I want to do that, I got to build a company and a business infrastructure team and culture and everything across the board with products that's able to scale. And if I'm going to do that, I need to build a facility that matches that ambition. You know, in those early days, there was no Bardstown Bourbon company. There was no MGP in Kentucky.
[00:17:19] Ray Latif: And just for context, those are places where you can go with an idea and they will create your product for you. You have a, yeah.
[00:17:25] Kaveh Zamanian: Correct. Correct. Because, you know, I didn't want to go out there and source and blend. There's nothing wrong with sourcing and blending. But my vision for Rabbit Hole was really rested on this philosophy that I figured out very early on that it kind of boils down to this idea of bourbon is 51% corn, 49% possibility. And what that means for me is that, you know, the beauty of bourbon is that you can really experiment with different grains and create just like wine, you experiment with different varietals, you can experiment with different grain bills and create some wonderful, lovely whiskey expressions. So for that reason, I wanted to make my own recipes, but the problem was there was no distillery that would contract distill for me. They would sell bulk liquid, but they would not change their operation schedule to make these recipes. So for me, the light bulb moment was let's build a facility. Not only I'm able to make Rabbit Hole liquid, but also I'm able to contract for other people so that revenue can help us build the company and build the brand. But that required a lot more money on the upfront to build this facility and that's why I was hitting the road to raise money to be able to build Rabbit Hole in Louisville.
[00:18:40] Ray Latif: How did you determine how much of your capacity to outsource versus what you'd be able to create in-house for yourself or your brand?
[00:18:49] Kaveh Zamanian: It was, you know, we went through a forecasting exercise, and honestly, a lot of that stuff is your thumb in the air and seeing what direction the wind blows. But roughly speaking, I figured that, you know, if we're producing north of 25,000 barrels, I'd like to start laying down maybe half of it for Rabbit Hole and half of it available for contract distillation. And that was a rough math that we did that actually came out, in reality, pretty damn close to that 50% in those initial years. And then, of course, as Rabbit Hole was growing, we adjusted that percentage and eventually did away with contract distillation.
[00:19:25] Ray Latif: Just back to the investors for a sec. 110 investors out of the 1,000 pitches. So it's a little under 10%. What was the key selling point for the ones that bought into your vision?
[00:19:39] Kaveh Zamanian: Two things, I think the first thing was being able to put something together from an asset standpoint that brought some value to the table. Number one was I bought the property here where Rabbit Hole is. It used to be an abandoned warehouse and I was able to acquire that property and that became one of the pieces that became a selling point. And along those lines I partnered with Doug Pearson who is an architect that worked at Frank Gehry's office in LA for seven years and together we came up with a design for this facility and that became a really compelling kind of selling proposition. And then the other thing was I was able to get a five-year contract distillation contract and agreement with another distillery that became really valuable because at the time In those early days, there was not a whole lot of folks that were extending contracts. Some brands were emerging, so even the supply was drying up. So that contract became also a valuable asset for the company. So together, the real estate and the contract became kind of the initial springboard for the pitches.
[00:20:46] Ray Latif: And just to be clear, the contract was for you to produce the liquid for another distillery?
[00:20:51] Kaveh Zamanian: No, no, for us, for Rabbit Hole. So basically, what I was basically saying is that, look, we've got the real estate, we've got the loan to get going for the distillery. And at the same time, we got a contract agreement that guarantees us in the next five years having X number of barrels that we're getting at this dollar amount. And it's going to be worth a lot more than that five years from now, six years from now. So, you know, the kind of assets that being built building on inventory and real estate was essentially the foundation for the pitch.
[00:21:26] Ray Latif: Were these folks, these investors, were they savvy about Chief Whiskey business, about the spirits business, or was it you having to explain it to them very clearly? This is how you're going to get a return on your money. And even though there is risk, it's backed up by assets and contracts.
[00:21:44] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, majority were not familiar with the industry at all. In fact, I don't think there was anybody, maybe one or two folks, I don't know, one or two folks that have had some experience in the industry. The rest were non-industry folks with very little experience and knowledge about the spirit industry. But most of them are from the Commonwealth, and they knew bourbon, grew up around bourbon, and there was a passionate side of them. Really dreamt and loved the idea of being a part of a venture like this. They came in from that angle. With that said, most of them were, you know, business people, so they had experience even though it wasn't in the spirit industry. They understood valuation, they understood inventory, they understood assets, certainly forecasting and kind of what kind of a return on investment potential we're presenting to them.
[00:22:31] Ray Latif: Were there any of the investors that you pitched to ones that you were like, we have to have this person on board? I would assume no, because it's just so many you reached out to, but did you feel like there were some that you were like, okay, if I get this person, I'll be able to get the next one and the next one after that. I think that's, you know, a lot of times that's how angel investing works, but.
[00:22:49] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, no, no. I think, um, it wasn't one individual. It was actually group or two. One of the things that I realized very early on is that it does have that ripple effect. So if I persuade you, all of a sudden you've got three, four different folks that you can bring to the table. There was a couple of folks that were part of a larger investment group. So having a conversation with one of the two people ended up bringing in 30 to 40 people just because they were part of a larger investment group and it really helped with that process.
[00:23:27] Ray Latif: It sounds like things kind of fell into place. You got your investors, you got the building, you got the contract, but there's still a lot of moving parts. And I'm sure there's still a lot of risk and there's a lot of anxiety about getting this all started. How did you manage your own personal, I guess, concerns about things falling apart or, you know, the potential for things to go wrong? Because it sounds like at the time there were just so many things going on.
[00:23:55] Kaveh Zamanian: Honestly, a lot of nights on my hands and knees praying to whoever would listen. And I'm not kidding about that. I think there was a lot of anxiety because... It's one of those things that you just never know. I think Chief Whiskey recipes alone were a part of that. Heather used to ask me, how do you know if these recipes are going to be any good? And of course, the answer is, I have no idea, because you just don't know where the liquid is going to land four, five, six years later. And that's actually part of the reason she used to say, you're going to take the family down the Rabbit Hole with this crazy idea. And that's how the name came to be. But that principle That kind of idea was resonating throughout those early years because we didn't have any sales. We're basically laying down. There's a lot of money going out, but not a whole lot coming in or any coming in. But I think what kept me going was looking at the broader marketplace and being really bullish about what's happening to bourbon and American whiskey. And that's what gave me really the fortitude and the kind of energy to keep going forward. Plus, you know, as we got going, we got more people in the fold that were industry folks. You know, my head of operations, Cameron Talley, was and has been a wonderful kind of partner along the way, along with a lot of other folks from marketing and finance that joined the group. So it was in, the anxiety was not just on my shoulders, primarily on my shoulders, but at the same time, I was able to really kind of balance it out with other realities that showed sign of hope.
[00:25:26] Ray Latif: One of the interesting things about beverages, and I guess, you know, food in general as well, but beverages in particular, is that the liquid can be great. And I've seen a lot of great beverage brands where I'm like, wow, this tastes amazing. And then I look at the package and I look at the brand architecture. I'm like, oh, this needs a lot of work. And coming out of the gate nowadays, it's like it's table stakes. I've talked about this in the podcast before. You have to have a great brand. You have to give a great package design. And it's just so important for buyers to recognize that, OK, I can put this on shelf and people are going to want to take it off the shelf. With Rabbit Hole, you had the name, which is a great name. But the branding itself, being able to stand out on shelf amidst or among dozens, if not nowadays, hundreds of other brands, what were the key elements of that branding architecture?
[00:26:15] Kaveh Zamanian: I think part of it was trying to be less traditional. We talk about how we're founded on tradition, but we're really forward-looking. I think that at the time, the vision behind Rabbit Hole was not to essentially make your grandfather's bourbon. I felt that there is an entire consumer segment that bourbon is not catered to. So, if you think about the package, the bottle alone, I was very conscious about trying to design something that has both masculine and feminine attributes. When it came to branding and messaging, all those things really kind of were along the same lines. Because I think you're absolutely right. The liquid is baseline. Liquid has to be good, otherwise you can't sell the second or third bottle. But beyond that, what are you doing to create an emotional connection for a consumer? Because in a lot of ways, I think wine and spirits, as opposed to some other consumer goods, they're really about consumers forming an attachment to the brand and to the brand story. And I think along those lines, aside from the liquid, the package, the story in some ways, probably the more important piece of that is the idea of finding your dream and going after your dream. Because I think that's what ultimately Rabbit Hole in a lot of ways represents. And I saw that working as a psychologist where There's a lot of folks that either can't find their dream, or if they did, didn't have the gumption to go after. And I felt that as a brand, we want to be able to inspire folks to, maybe through my story, maybe through the experience through the distillery, they're able to think about that whatever they dream of is possible. And if they can take the chance, and they're thoughtful about it, take the leap, ultimately, some good things can come out of it. And certainly, even if they don't exactly hit the mark, there is no regrets. And ultimately, they feel like they've lived a more fulfilling life. And I think that brand story, brand mantra, that inspiration, I think, is part of what I was very mindful of when I came to Rabbit Hole.
[00:28:22] Ray Latif: This might be kind of an awkward question, but I'll ask it anyway. Exit strategy is one of those things that entrepreneurs talk about, but a lot of them will say, I never thought about exit strategy when I launched the brand. And then some will say, I absolutely did. Look, I have investors. They want to know about when they're going to return on their money. And sometimes building a brand to fill gaps in a strategic portfolio is something that you can think of early on. Was that part of your purview?
[00:28:50] Kaveh Zamanian: You know, that was a standard question with most of the investors. I think the savvy investors consistently ask that question. What's the exit strategy? What is your plan? And so on and so forth. So it certainly was on my mind. I think that for me, I was hoping to be able to build a generational brand and I didn't really at the time early on think about what that means in terms of ownership stake because I was so focused on getting it off the ground but as the brand got going it became more of a question on my mind. And I think in a lot of ways, you know, in fact, talking to some folks that have become mentors like Bill Samuels from Makers Mark has been a dear friend. And I remember Bill saying to me, look, I've been through four MNAs and I'm still here because the heart and soul of Makers Mark is the Samuels family. So for me, it was one of those things where it started with having all these investors, then eventually we partnered with Pernod Ricard, and here we are now where Pernod Ricard basically is about to, actually this month, fully acquire Rabbit Hole. So my role from a founder, owner, is now shifted to Chief Whiskey officer. And it's an emotional roller coaster and I couldn't tell you that early days I was thinking about this and I had it all planned out because I didn't. But it was one of those things that evolved and given my circumstances I had to make some decisions about the investors, about the brand, and ultimately what's The best strategy to make sure that original vision of Rabbit Hole becoming a legacy brand is established. And for me, these are the decisions I made. There's some decisions that I thought were good and a lot of decisions that I probably wish would have taken a different path on. But my recommendation to people is that those are the individual circumstances that you have to think about. And it's going to be really different person to person.
[00:30:52] Ray Latif: You piqued my interest when you said decisions that you wish you could go back and change. But ultimately, I mean, it all came out in the wash. But is there something that you could look back on and say, if I had just done this differently, we might have had a different outcome?
[00:31:07] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, I think, you know, broadly speaking, at least in a couple of areas, I think those early days, I was so anxious and eager to get going, I probably gave up more stake in the company that I should have. I think that decisions about certain people that I felt like they're bringing value to the table ended up being a mistake in the long run. And I tell folks that the HR side of it, the human resources and human capital side of it is probably one of those things that most entrepreneurs don't think about early on, but it ends up actually being pretty damn costly if you're not mindful of who you're bringing to the table. So certainly that part of it was one. I think the other piece is probably related to some of the decisions in terms of when you actually exit. I think the partnership with Pernod Ricard has been really wonderful, and it's worked out very well. But at the same time, there's a part of me that sometimes it wonders if I should have held on a little bit longer. And then there's days that I'm like, well, shit, no, that was the right time to exit. So it kind of goes back and forth.
[00:32:13] Ray Latif: Yeah, well, when you have those conversations with strategics, obviously they want to get the best deal. You want to get the best deal. But they're also looking at other brands, perhaps, to bring into their portfolio. And it's not necessarily, hey, you know, we're laser focused on Rabbit Hole. You're the only one we want. There's probably a dozen other brands that might be a good fit for them. But when do you start having those conversations with strategics? When do they start knocking on your door? Why do they start knocking on your door?
[00:32:41] Kaveh Zamanian: Well, because Rabbit Hole was early to the game, particularly on the distillery side of it, we got knocks very, very early on. I think, you know, when we were starting to actually build, as soon as we broke ground, we had people knocking on our doors. That was another kind of way of recognizing that we're on the right track. So it was good in that sense. But, you know, I ultimately said no to all of them with the exception of Pernod. I think Pernod, for me, really was the one that brought the right culture, attitude, and I think a lot of it actually personally rested on Alex Ricard, the CEO of the company. You know, his grandfather started Pernod Ricard, and so he's only a generation away from the founder's story, and I think he understood entrepreneurship, the value of what I have built here, and a respect and appreciation for that, and that ultimately gave me a lot of and of good feelings that we're with the right group that's going to able to support getting Rabbit Hole where I would like it to be.
[00:33:41] Ray Latif: Did you ever feel like you wanted to exit the business entirely? I mean, they made their investment, print over card, initial investment in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, and that's 2024. So they are, as you mentioned, about to fully acquire the brand. But, you know, sometimes founders are like, sold the company, I'm out. And you clearly did not do that. In fact, you're working on a bunch of new stuff. Mary Dowling, for example. How much of your personal passion has to play into this generational brand, as you pointed out, as you talked about? Why are you still in the game is, I guess, the bottom line.
[00:34:18] Kaveh Zamanian: I love what I'm doing. I think I love certainly making whiskey and fine spirits. I think that I'm personally the kind of guy that I like to play golf every once in a while, but I can't imagine myself going to Florida and retiring anytime soon. So the idea of being able to continue is just, you know, I don't even really think about anything other than that just because I feel like in a lot of ways I'm just getting started. You know, when you really think about it, I've been in the business for 12, 13 years and I've got a long way to go and I feel like now with Rabbit Hole and the lessons learned, There's an opportunity, not only be able to move the needle with Rabbit Hole, but also create some of these new brands that are coming online, like Mary Dowling and Mash Mallow. And I think that goes to the question related to the strategic, because the wonderful thing about the partnership with Pernod is that, as Alex understood and appreciated brand builders, we had a conversation a long time ago, is there an opportunity to be able to create new brands together where I continue to exercise that entrepreneurial kind of thirst and the company's also able to benefit from brand creation in a way that typically large companies are not able to because while large companies talk about innovation, most of them don't really do innovation. So, you know, the reality that I have the flexibility and the freedom to continue to lead the charge on Rabbit Hole but create new brands is a pretty unicorn scenario.
[00:35:46] Ray Latif: I am so glad you talked about innovation. That's a perfect segue to my next question, which is about getting the attention of folks who are existing consumers in the space and then attracting new interest in the space. As we all know, and we've read about, there seems to be some decline in consumption among younger consumers, Gen Z. A lot of folks in that age demographic say they don't drink, they have no plans to drink alcohol. So when you do talk about creating a spark and developing innovative ways to attract more people to a brand or at least more people to an adjacent brand, what's really the most important thing?
[00:36:28] Kaveh Zamanian: For me, it's always quality over quantity. I never thought about alcohol in a way that's about misuse or abuse. My mantra has always been quality over quantity. It's about drinking better as opposed to drinking more. So, along those lines, the value that I feel like we bring to the table is the quality of the spirits that we're making. And ultimately, from a marketing and branding and the messaging standpoint, it's really about how wine and spirits, in this case obviously for us spirits, very similar to food, are a way of bringing people together and connecting and that kind of moments of conviviality, if you would. And I think along those lines, I feel that that's where we are best suited and best positioned to bring new consumers to the fold. I'm completely in line with what you're saying. I think there's a generation that's drinking less, and I don't think necessarily there's anything wrong with that. I'm not afraid of it. I think it's more about, again, being able to stay true to the quality of the products we're making, and ultimately the consumers will be there.
[00:37:36] Ray Latif: With Mary Dowling in particular, if you could talk a bit about that story, you know, just in the name itself, one would say just at a glance, oh, you know, are they trying to attract new female consumers given that this is someone who has had a long history or a leading figure, leading female distiller in the industry from a long time ago? How does the name, how does the brand play into the decision to launch it?
[00:38:01] Kaveh Zamanian: I learned about Mary's story about 10 years ago, a little bit over 10 years ago now, and actually memorialized the painting in the honor of her and several other notable folks in our industry that not a whole lot of people know about years ago. So I didn't necessarily think about starting Mary Dowling brand, you know, from that angle. It just happens that Serendipity brought a gentleman to the distillery that owned the Waterfill and Frazier distillery and the Dowling brothers, and we started talking. And I told him that, you know, I've been captivated with Mary's story, and he asked me if I want to help out. And that's how that brand really got started. The only caveat was that I told this gentleman that I'm not interested in necessarily just resurrecting Waterfield and Fraser Mary Dowling Brothers. I really want to be able to tell Mary's story. For me, that was the most important piece. How do we tell Mary's story in a way that does justice to her and her legacy? You know, as a father of two daughters, I think it's one of those things where I feel like we really have to, you know, not just talk about it, but to really act. So, in a lot of ways, this brand is about celebrating a woman who was lost through the annals of history, and I feel like she really deserves to be part of the discussion when it comes to bourbon and American whiskey. That was really the spirit behind it. And of course, the liquid is made here at Rabbit Hole, very distinct from the other products that we have for Rabbit Hole. You know, I'm very intentional about whatever brand we make, making sure that each brand, each product has its own swim lane. So you're not necessarily just picking up another bottle with the same liquid. And we're very proud of what we've created.
[00:39:51] Ray Latif: Well, I don't think creating a marshmallow flavored whiskey would be a right fit for Rabbit Hole, but perhaps its own brand. Sure. And I think that's also interesting, you know, flavored whiskey has been done. But I think, you know, from an innovation standpoint, what flavors are going to resonate with today's consumers? It sounds like an interesting proposition.
[00:40:15] Kaveh Zamanian: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. That's another piece that's just like the other brands. There's a personal dimension to it. I grew up in Southern California, spent a lot of time on the beach, bonfire, going to the Sierras, and same thing. A lot of family times, marshmallows, s'mores. And to me, I wanted to make something that harkened back to those days and those experiences. and, again, in the spirit of bringing people together in joy and pleasure. It just happens that, you know, the main thing that I would say about mashimalo is that, again, the quality aspect of it is really important. I was a little frustrated with what's on the market where flavored whiskey is really, it's a combination of grain-neutral spirits or light whiskey and so on and so forth, and I didn't want to do that. So what we have is the base for mashimalo, It's a three-year-old corn whiskey that's really lovely, and of course, we've added flavoring to be able to bring those nuances of a marshmallow, s'mores, graham crackers, chocolate, so on and so forth to the table. And it is a very different proposition than Rabbit Hole and Mary Dowling, right? This is a little bit more lighter, more whimsical, playful, and in some ways, I guess, arguably for a different demographic.
[00:41:32] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think so. But, you know, there's a time and place for everything.
[00:41:35] Kaveh Zamanian: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:41:37] Ray Latif: Kaveh, this has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much for having me in. My pleasure. Your story is such an amazing one. I can't wait to share it with our audience.
[00:41:48] Kaveh Zamanian: Listen, I appreciate you being here. Thank you for your interest in my story and Rabbit Hole. And it's been lovely.
[00:41:54] Ray Latif: For sure. Thanks again.
[00:41:55] Kaveh Zamanian: Thank you.
[00:41:59] Ray Latif: That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. you
