[00:00:00] Ray Latif: Hey folks, I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of BevNET's Taste Radio podcast, and you're tuning into the latest episode of Elevator Talk, a series that profiles early stage and disruptive brands from across the food and beverage industry. Today's episode we'll focus on four food brands whose entrepreneurs will have an opportunity to hear feedback and advice from our co-host for this episode. That's the great Tom Spier, who is the founder and managing partner of BFG Partners. Tom, it is so great to have you back on the show.
[00:00:36] Tom Spier: Thank you, Ray. I really appreciate you having me today. And, uh, yeah, we've done this now a couple of times. So I really appreciate the fact that I'm able to come back again.
[00:00:46] Ray Latif: Thank you for that. You are a, I believe six or seven time champion of Elevator Talk having co-hosted. Yeah. We've been doing this for a while and. Every time that you're on the show is always one of the best moments for me on this podcast, because you bring so much to this industry and you give such great feedback, advice and insights on what it takes to be successful for food or beverage brands. And you do because you've had a great track record of success investing in some of the most iconic entrepreneurial brands in our space. Just briefly, for folks who are not familiar with you or BFG Partners, tell us a bit about yourself and your work with the firm.
[00:01:24] Tom Spier: Yeah, thank you, Ray. So, yeah, I entered the industry in 2004 as an operator with a company called Bare Naked. So first cut my teeth, you know, as an operator and worked principally in operations finance, but definitely had good coverage across sales, marketing, and it was just a great, great place to start. relevant to today's discussions, you know, Bare Naked is a baked goods, and I know we're going to be, not every company we're talking with today, but baked goods are a part of the mix, pun intended. And so looking forward to digging back into the chest of ideas that may have happened in those early years. I worked in the frozen food space after that with Evol Foods. a brand that really did shake up the frozen category, another category that's changed a lot and continuing to develop. And then after that, began my work doing investing. And over the last 12, 13, 14 years, have invested with my partners at BFG in many brands, some of which, you know, I'll name now, certainly not trying to leave out any exceptional brands, We're very fortunate to have partnered with Graza, the olive oil business, Oats Overnight, the company Transforming Breakfast, Olipop, of course. So I'll leave it there. But yeah, we do have some great experiences. some solid, lots of solid stories that we can get into. I know this is more about the entrepreneurs, but it's great to be here to share some of these thoughts.
[00:03:14] Ray Latif: I think that's a great segue because when I talk to investors, a lot of times they say, we are investing in the founder. We like the brand, we like their business, but it's really about the founder. How do you evaluate early stage founders and their ability to scale their businesses?
[00:03:30] Tom Spier: Yeah, well, you know, each person, you know, has their own strengths. And, you know, we're looking for people that I guess in a lot of ways have a lot of the strengths that you hope to see in someone who's building a business and leadership traits, you know, related to perseverance, discipline, honesty, you know, the honesty piece being, you know, the most important when you're when you're talking about trying to be, you know, having a good business partnership with someone. And hopefully, if things are going really well, we're the first call. And if things are going badly, we're the first call. And, you know, that starts with just, you know, honest, good dialogue with your partners. So yeah, and then, you know, positive outlook. You know, people that want to build relationships, build bridges. You know, this is very much a long game and most people that are in this industry tend to want to come back to it, even if they've, you know, maybe they haven't succeeded in something or maybe they have wildly, but more often than not, we are seeing people that are staying in the industry and building relationships over a lifetime.
[00:04:40] Ray Latif: When I look at your portfolio, I'm on your website right now, I see all these brands that to me represent premium, and in some cases, super premium. But is that enough to really differentiate yourself from, say, a legacy player in a traditional category? What else do you need to really stand out on shelf, in your opinion, as an investor?
[00:05:00] Tom Spier: Well, yeah, price matters, so certainly you have to know where you're competing and it is okay to be premium or in some cases super premium, but it really does need a ladder up to being able to grow big enough. And, you know, again, you can have a great premium or super premium product, but it may not make it the perfect product for venture investing or having venture partners because, you know, just the amount of scale that is needed to really have these brands, not just be, you know, maybe small profitable companies, but large profitable companies. You know, we do think a lot about that. So certain categories, if they're just not big enough, it makes it really hard to be in that premium or super premium area. And then if you're trying to compete in the more kind of core value proposition area, you really better have a supply chain that is as good as it can possibly be.
[00:06:01] Ray Latif: I'm glad you mentioned profitability. Maybe I was trying to will it out of you, but I know we talk about that every time you're on the show. and you talk a lot about the importance of margin. Today, where investors are looking as much at the bottom line as they are at the top line, I think entrepreneurs are finally gotten that message. A lot of folks that I've talked to recently, who are relatively early stage, talk about the importance of trying to be profitable as soon as possible, or at least have a path to profitability. It's difficult though, but how important is it to you as an investor that profitability is a real possibility, say three to five years into the business?
[00:06:44] Tom Spier: Yeah, no, I think it's incredibly important and, you know, it's the discipline to run something in a way that, you know, even if it's not making money year one or year two or even year three, but the capital, the discipline, the way the money is being spent, I think is really, really relevant. So we focus heavily on capital efficiency. There are definitely stories out there in our universe of companies that maybe were not capital efficient for a long time because they couldn't find the right product market fit. And through, again, discipline and hard work and ups and downs, you know, these entrepreneurs. we're able to figure it out. And eventually they can, you know, sometimes they do break out, even though capital efficiency may have been horrible for years. So it's not, you know, it doesn't mean that if your capital efficiency isn't amazing out of the gate, it's doesn't mean that you're necessarily sunk, but it's, it's not a good sign when it's bad. And, and I, as a founder running a company and, you know, raising more and more capital and not getting the growth. I mean, I know how bad that feels. I've been there. So when that number inverts and gets to be a really healthy number, it starts to feel really good.
[00:08:01] Ray Latif: Be honest, be premium with a good price point, or at least a competitive price point, and be efficient with your capital. I like all these things. It sounds like our founders have gotten the message, and I'm sure they're gonna incorporate that into their pitches today. No, in all seriousness, I think we have a great group, as I mentioned, and I can't wait for them to talk to you and our audience about their businesses. Are you ready to meet our first entrepreneur for this episode of Elevator Talk? Let's rock. Let's do it. That person is Tony David, who is the founder and CEO of Bakefull. Tony, it's great to see you. Hello.
[00:08:35] Speaker 1: Great to see you. Thanks for being here.
[00:08:38] Ray Latif: Well, thank you so much for being here as well. It sounds like you and Tom know each other a bit. We've crossed paths in the past, yes. Okay. Okay. Well, I think that's a good thing. I mean, I hope so. Cause if he doesn't like you, then he's probably just going to rip your business plan apart. No, I'm kidding. Obviously, obviously, obviously. Okay. I've heard really great things about Bigfull. Not just that it's a great brand, but the traction that you're having is pretty impressive. Tell us all about what you do.
[00:09:04] Speaker 1: We are a premium, better for you, sweet baked goods line. We're innovating and reinventing the sweet baked goods aisle. As Tom mentioned, there's a ton of really exciting brands from Olipop to Graza and many other ones that have taken existing categories and done some pretty cool things with them. And that's what we really are doing with the sweet baked goods. There's a number of legacy old guard kind of brands from hostess and enemies, et cetera, that haven't really innovated or done anything to keep up with the times and appeal to current audiences and really bring people back to the category. And I started the company about three years ago. I'm the CEO. And we intended to intend to build and launch products that taste great, but are better for you, nothing artificial, and nothing processed, and really satisfy people's desires and excitement for a sweet baked good.
[00:10:00] Ray Latif: And you have three lines, at least I'm looking at your website, and you have three lines that you're marketing here. Donutful. muffin full, and brownie full. And they all look delicious, especially the donuts. I'm a sucker for donuts, especially the little ones. The pink sprinkle one is really screaming at me right now. But before we get to Tom, I want to ask about the better for you aspect. There it is. Tony's got one in his hand. I want to ask about the better for you aspect. You talked about no artificial, no fillers, but where do you stand in terms of macros like calories and sugar?
[00:10:33] Speaker 1: So we're 25% less sugar, talking about the donuts. Our donuts are baked, not fried, and that's a big deal for consumers. We don't use any saturated fats. And as you said, we don't have any artificial colors, flavors, and nothing processed. It's a non-GMO product. So our position is we're selling an indulgent, a premium indulgent or permissible indulgent sweet baked good. And what that means is when you eat a donut or a muffin or a brownie, you want it to taste like and deliver the satisfaction of what you expect. As you say, you're a sucker for donuts, you know, what you expect a donut to taste like. And no disrespect for a lot of the better for you products out there. And you know, you're familiar and Tom is. and your audiences, but a lot of products fail to deliver on taste and on performance. And so for us, it's that fine line between taste and nutritional quality and premiumness with satisfaction. So you don't feel like you're just eating really empty calories.
[00:11:32] Ray Latif: Tom, I love it when entrepreneurs take on legacy giants in categories where there really hasn't been much innovation, if at all. You know, Tony mentioned a couple really big brands out there and it feels like, yeah, there it's definitely your dad's or maybe even your granddad's brands. It can be tough though, because you are going up against brands that have had distribution muscle, marketing power for a very, very long time. So all that being said, I mean, how do you evaluate a brand and a company like Bakefull when they are going up and targeting those giants?
[00:12:07] Tom Spier: Yeah, I think, you know, it's an interesting area for sure. You know, I think the amount of, I don't have like an immediate snapshot on the market TAM or market size of the categories and subcategories you're playing in, but my gut tells me, you know, there's some pretty good size players in there and some of the products we're selling are targetable because of, you know, the ingredient statements that, you know, maybe certain consumer sets are not seeking. So, you know, I think that's interesting on the surface. You know, I guess, you know, the things that start to jump out to me and, you know, I won't go to hammering here too hard, but from a brand standpoint, you know, Bakefull is the brand concept, but, you know, I think it shows up as Muffinfull, Browningfull, Donutfull, and then even in like syndicated data that starts to look as like separate brands instead of you know, just one brand, which may, you know, kind of hurt your story in some ways as people are trying to evaluate your size and stage, because some of that gets hidden in the data. So maybe start there with me on how you settled on, you know, going with that sort of trifecta approach as opposed to, you know, concentrated brand approach.
[00:13:21] Speaker 1: It's a great question. It has to do a little bit with the origin story of how we got started with the business. We looked at the TAM, and not to get too into the business plan and the overall opportunity, but it's about a $25 billion category for packaged sweet baked goods. And when we looked at the different subcomponents, whether it's donuts, muffins, brownies, snack cakes, cookies, we felt that donuts was the best place to start for a lot of reasons. And so we leaned into donuts originally, And I was thought of as the donut guy because that's how people knew me when I was introducing it to retailers or investors or partners, you know, what have you. We always envisioned expanding, but for about a year and a half, we were just a donut company. And we felt like we needed to build the donut full. awareness and not really try to introduce two names between, say, Bakeful and Donutful right from the outset. Fortunately, but to make it complicated, just over a year ago, about a year and a half ago, HEB approached us in Texas and said, we'd love to bring in your donuts, but we sell a crap ton of muffins and we'd love to bring in muffins. We already envisioned expanding into Muffinful. So we needed to start to morph how we were positioning ourselves in the market between Donutful and Muffinful, and start to think about where a name like Bakeful could rise and emerge as more of an overarching umbrella brand. And then to complicate things, or just to your point, you know, sort of put an exclamation mark on slightly some of the confusion, we met with Target last fall. They love donuts and muffins, asked us if we could do something special for them. We said we'd love to, and we presented to them Browniful. which was our newest product. And so now we have this portfolio of brands, and we are in the process from a positioning standpoint and a packaging standpoint to elevate the Bakeful name. So it becomes the main hero name of the line. And then we're working to determine how we want to keep the Donutful, Muffinful, or Browniful names in the picture. So it's maybe a long-winded story of saying, I acknowledge and understand what you're saying and you're not wrong. And we're working to smooth that out.
[00:15:33] Ray Latif: The strategy holds water. I guess we'll find out for sure if it does or not, but the traction you've had is undeniable. You mentioned Target, you're also in Walmart, H-E-B, Safeway, and a few other well-known retailers, which isn't necessarily common for brands that we have on Elevator Talk, but I think it goes to show the amount of traction you get that you know, small brands can have with a great business plan and strategy and, of course, great products. Tom, going back to you, however, how much of that traction, how much of that retail presence makes a difference for you? I mean, how much of a validation point is it to say, get into all those retail stores? Obviously, you have to look at the data and the sales data, but does it give you confidence that because retail buyers have embraced this brand that it is investable?
[00:16:25] Tom Spier: It's a great signal. Tony, with your experience, you've been able to already achieve Breaking into some of the key retailers in the country so that that's amazing. I don't have a good sense of the breadth of distribution and. You know, getting on the shelf is 1 thing turning off the shelf is another thing. And so, you know, we'd be more interested in seeing and understanding, you know, the performance of, you know. the right doors in the retailer as opposed to just being everywhere and then sort of not having enough. And again, if your capitalization is deep enough, maybe you have enough to support a really strong and broad distribution, but a lot of young brands are better off with a more rifle shot approach. And we like to see and understand what the velocities can look like. you know, in a retailer where it actually makes sense. There's certain doors at certain retailers where the, you know, it just doesn't, there may not be the right products because of price or, you know, other reasons. So yeah, it's a great start. How long have you been in now?
[00:17:30] Speaker 1: What's the? We've been in Target for just over a month. We launched at HEB Markets about 18 months ago. We've been in Walmart about 14 months. Kroger just opened up a few new divisions for us in the last few months. We're pretty strong in Southern California with Ralphs and Bristol Farms and Kelsons, Safeway and NorCal. And then we got an inbound call from ShopRite. last Christmas and they want to bring us into a bunch of their stores, so.
[00:17:55] Tom Spier: Okay, well, don't go too broad, too fast. We only have a little bit more time. How's your supply chain? Is it good? It's very good.
[00:18:03] Speaker 1: We upgraded to a terrific Coman in the Midwest, state-of-the-art bakery. They can get us to tens of thousands of cases a month, and so we're feeling very calm. I can sleep at night on the supply chain side of things, for sure.
[00:18:19] Ray Latif: Being in all those retail stores, I wonder about merchandising and how uniform that merchandising is from store to store. I mean, I guess what I'm asking is where are you sold? Where do you, where do you want to be sold in store?
[00:18:34] Speaker 1: The buyer that looks at our category is typically adjacent to or buys for the commercial bread aisle, so where Dave's Bread is, or Oral Weed, or Thomas English Muffins. And it's called the sweet baked goods aisle, so we're just directly next to that, or part of that, but next to the bread aisle. And we're positioned right next to the incumbents, right next to Hostess, Little Debbie's, Tasty Cakes, et cetera. And the buyers are looking actively for better for you, healthier options. And we check a lot of boxes for them in terms of that just coming in the door.
[00:19:09] Ray Latif: Just quickly, because we are out of time, the price point as compared to some of those legacy players, are you 50% higher? Are you within range? I mean, what should consumers expect to pay for Donut Full or Muffin Full or Brownie Full as compared to the legacy players?
[00:19:26] Speaker 1: We have two different form factors, Ray. One is the individual self-serve, which is usually sold for between $2.50 and $3 a pack of donuts, muffins, or brownies. And those are a little more expensive, maybe 20% more than the legacy brands. And then we have our multi-pack box, which is the box that holds five of our packs. And that's sold for $6.99 a box. And that could be about 75%, 50% to 75% more than some of the legacy brands. And it's a premium product, it costs us more to make it. So it's hard to really bring that down, but we're working on it. Price doesn't seem to be an issue right now. I think it's just creating the awareness and the trial.
[00:20:08] Ray Latif: Yeah, well, I want to try your products. They look amazing. I think our dear friend Whitney sends them to our office and I hope I can find them and hope my colleagues didn't eat all of them because they tend to do those things. But anyway, Tony, it's been so great speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking the time. I think obviously you're off to a great start. You have great packaging, by the way. We didn't even talk about that, but your branding and your package design is fantastic. But I look forward to seeing your brand and products in stores in the Northeast really soon.
[00:20:36] Speaker 1: Thanks for your time. Nice to meet you, Ray. Tom, great to see you. And I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. Outstanding. Thanks so much again, Tony.
[00:20:46] Ray Latif: All right. Fantastic start to the show. Let's keep things going with our next guest. We have Liz Lane, who's the CEO of Scoops. Liz, it's great to see you.
[00:20:57] Speaker 2: Hiya. Thanks for having me.
[00:20:59] Ray Latif: Liz Lane, it sounds like the human identity of a superhero. And I think you have a superhero brand. I know we've tried your product and talked about your product on other episodes of Taste Radio, my dear colleague and DevNet chief revenue and marketing officer, Mike Schneider is a big fan of scoops.
[00:21:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to listen to that episode. So thank you.
[00:21:24] Ray Latif: Yeah, of course. Tell our audience all about what you do.
[00:21:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, so Scoops is a high-protein peanut butter powder. We just launched the brand when we launched in Target last month. So pitched to Target as an idea in August of last year, and we got awarded 1,100 doors in December and just on shelves about a month ago. So really exciting.
[00:21:47] Ray Latif: Okay. I have just 10,000 questions, but I'm sure Tom does as well. So Tom, before I say another word, please ask away.
[00:21:55] Tom Spier: It's great to meet you and yeah, huge congrats on getting on shelf at Target out of the gate. That's phenomenal. I'm sure you're anxiously awaiting sort of some of the first data. How did you decide on 1,100 stores? Was that their decision, your decision?
[00:22:11] Speaker 2: It was their decision. So I've worked in food and bed startups for about 12 years. I was one of the first hires at Magic Spoon. I was the head of ops. So I was there for about four years and have worked at a lot of really fast growing startups. So I know the operations side really well. And when I left, I knew I wanted to start my own thing and was kind of exploring a few different ideas and met a supplier with this unique ingredient that hadn't been commercialized yet, which is a peanut isolate. Pitched to Target specifically in the peanut powder space, peanut butter aisle, instead of going into the protein aisle. And originally pitched for like 250 up to 500 doors. It was their idea to go into 1,100. So very exciting. It was good validation. And they were, from the initial call, really excited about the product. And yeah, it's been a crazy few months. So it wasn't initially the plan. But they also just notified us a couple weeks ago that they want to expand two additional doors in the fall.
[00:23:15] Tom Spier: Amazing. That's great news. That's a great signal. And the price on shelf, what's the retail shelf point?
[00:23:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're 9.99 for 10.5 ounces. So when it comes to comparing it with protein powder, significantly cheaper and about 20 cents an ounce more expensive than the competitor. There's only really one other competitor on shelf.
[00:23:39] Tom Spier: And then number of servings that that would be would be.
[00:23:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, so we we the servings that we use or if you're going to use it and just mix it with water into like a protein shake, which would be 27 grams of protein at 170 calories. And that is about seven servings per pouch.
[00:23:54] Tom Spier: Okay, and it does feel like that number relative to the category, it's sort of bought category maybe in more volume. How does that line up strategically?
[00:24:06] Speaker 2: In the peanut powder space?
[00:24:08] Tom Spier: Well, or just the protein powder in general? I mean, do you think it's 30 day supply is sort of, you know, table stakes for a lot of these companies?
[00:24:16] Speaker 2: Totally. So I think being in the peanut powder aisle, we had to kind of be conscious of size and serving size. So if you want to get to 27 grams of protein, it's about seven servings. But because people are using this in a lot of different formats, so mixing the smoothies, replacing peanut butter, adding in for baked goods, using it for overnight oats, you don't have to necessarily use the full serving size, which is what most people are doing with other peanut butter powders. if it were to be in the protein powder aisle, a hundred percent, it would have to be in kind of that 32 ounce larger, larger pack size.
[00:24:53] Tom Spier: When you think about your expanded future distribution, do you think about going to that other aisle or do you, do you know, do you, are you saying, Hey, we're going to own this other aisle with competitions different?
[00:25:05] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I definitely want to own the aisle we're in, but it definitely want to go into other aisles, uh, protein powder, um, snacking breakfast. I think, Because we have this unique ingredient, we want to really be synonymous with a new plant-based protein platform that is really relatable to consumers. People love peanuts. They know they're already using it every day, so it's not a lot of education or asking them to change what they're already doing. So yeah, the goal is to go into a few different categories for sure.
[00:25:38] Tom Spier: Do you have an ambition for online direct-to-consumer sales in a big way?
[00:25:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, so what I've seen working for so many different brands, food and beverage brands that start online and kind of shift into retail, it can be a really hard space, D2C. So I definitely want to be on Amazon, TikTok, and really test the right offering on D2C. I think protein powder supplements still does really well and can be like a nice D2C offering. But the goal is really to be really strategic and own a lot of the space in retail and be really focused on what retail and what innovation we come up with next. So not really flood the market, be really strategic, incremental, and yeah, kind of try and create this like perfect, as perfect as it can be between retail and D2C.
[00:26:30] Ray Latif: It's such an interesting concept because I would never have thought about a peanut protein powder. And it feels really natural. As a consumer, I think, okay, where is this protein coming from? It's a source that I totally understand. So you talked about education. How do you get people to try the product? Demo strategy has got to be really important. In what forms do people try this product?
[00:26:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think our major focus, and again, we just launched, is really trying to work with influencers and showing all the different options of how to use it, doing a lot of brand partnerships as well. I think peanuts are a little bit tricky in some retailers of doing sampling and actually in-store demos. But I do think it's really just hitting on how people, recipe development, lifestyle, fitness, influencers, to really give an audience an understanding of the best use cases. I think peanut powder in general, there's a couple of big players, but there's not been like a ton of education on the benefits of when to use peanut butter powder and, you know, kind of swap it for your peanut butter. So I think there's also a lot of interesting kind of education around that. But yeah, I think it is really just kind of like hitting where people are looking on recipes and looking at different food and baking and ideas online.
[00:27:52] Ray Latif: I mean, you mentioned that there's other large players in this space and Tom, I wonder, you know, how concerned or how that affects your evaluation of a brand like this when they're already really established businesses that, you know, could take a tack or could take an approach that is pretty similar to Scoops in terms of its positioning. How much of that, again, impacts your evaluation of a brand like this?
[00:28:19] Tom Spier: Yeah, no, it's certainly I mean, if it impacts it, because it's nice to say, hey, there's no competition. And isn't that great, but it's not really usually that realistic, especially in consumer products, because all the products are out there, the ingredients are on the package. There's tons of capabilities that all of these strategics have, so you kind of have to expect there to be competition regardless. It is nice to have a first mover advantage, even if it's just related to a certain idea and a certain product category. So I think you just have to sprint fast against it and out-execute. But I think foundationally, you know, being an ambient product, powders have proven to have quite a bit of strength over the last decade. You know, we have lots of examples we could point out and say, hey, and, you know, I do think it makes sense. Consumers are definitely consuming on the go. Smoothies are not going anywhere, only that's going to just, you know, it's a lot of powder intake. And I think it makes a ton of sense, right? Just given all the time constraints we have.
[00:29:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I think what's really exciting about this is we have exclusivity from pretty much the main supplier for about a couple years in the US in powder specifically. So you can't patent a process. There's not to say someone couldn't do this, but it's the timing to create a new isolate is not overnight. So that helps kind of hold the space for a bit. And yeah, I think that that's the plan is really own retail, because I think some of the bigger competitors that focus more online, and the retail footprint is much more limited. So that was kind of, you know, the biggest driver of being in the space that we are in where protein powder is a lot of noise. Like you said, it's a lot of fast moving, really well-known brands are in that space. So to stand out, you really have to be well-known. So I think going into a space that doesn't have as much competition and then kind of moving into those other categories when you have a name and people really know and understand the product is kind of the plan.
[00:30:36] Tom Spier: Do you have single package, small-sot, like single serving?
[00:30:38] Speaker 2: I get, but that's the next thing on the docket. Yeah, single serves.
[00:30:44] Ray Latif: Scoops is the name of the brand. And then the two O's are spelled or made to look like a peanut. But the name Scoops, to me, would indicate that you can go in other directions for your innovation strategy, that you could introduce other types of powders if you wanted to. Is that part of the plan? Is that a part of the long-term strategy?
[00:31:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I think that, you know, the base of the product is designed to kind of be used in a lot of different formats. I think the goal is to be really strategic about what that is and work with retail partners or really kind of understand what the consumer is asking for. But definitely, we wanted to leave it the name Broad and kind of open ourselves up to a lot of different categories in the future.
[00:31:28] Ray Latif: Is that music to your ears, Tom, or do you think sort of staying in the protein, the lane of peanut protein powder is the way to go?
[00:31:36] Tom Spier: Yeah. Well, if you have a winning formula right now, I mean, I wouldn't, you know, you got to run that thing all the way. to the end zone. So, you know, it's fun to think blue sky and big and broad, and, you know, definitely there's a time and place for it, but, you know, either do it because you have to pivot, but if it's what you're doing is working and retailers or the velocities are there, the net contribution margins are there by retailer, then you want to, you know, really make sure you maximize that because you've already put so much work into where you are today.
[00:32:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's the initial goal, launch and move off shelf as we were hitting on before.
[00:32:16] Tom Spier: Is your trademark all intact on Scoops?
[00:32:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:21] Ray Latif: Okay, all right. I was gonna ask that because it's a great name and I'm surprised no one's taken it yet, but yeah, make sure you hold onto that one. Liz, it's been so fantastic speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm really excited for the future of Scoops and can't wait to go to my local Target and hopefully find it in there.
[00:32:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:32:41] Ray Latif: Very, very interesting and exciting concepts. I'm sure there's a third one. In fact, I know there's a third one because our next guest is the founder of a company called Love & Yum. Her name is Gabriela Sarlo. She's the founder. Gabriela, it's great to see you.
[00:32:56] Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Nice to be here.
[00:32:58] Ray Latif: Love & Yum. Talk about a great name for a brand. What do you do?
[00:33:02] Speaker 3: So as the founder and CEO of Love and Yum, I've been working on reimagining some of our favorite breakfast products. So what I've done is I've created a premium organic pancake and waffle mix that is disrupting this category through our allergen friendly and both grain and gluten free formulation. My goal is to prove that we can have delicious, easy to make breakfast without sacrificing on ingredients or time.
[00:33:32] Ray Latif: I think about the explosion of better for you, pancake mixes, protein, pancake mixes coming to market. And then I'm looking at Love and Yum, looking at your website right now, and I'm thinking the packaging is beautiful, the name is beautiful. What else really differentiates you? I see that gluten and grain free, but is that something that is really appealing to a large number of consumers? Are you sort of targeting those folks who are looking for a product like this specifically?
[00:34:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean, most importantly, obviously, we're targeting anyone that wants a delicious breakfast and the feedback that we get is definitely addressing that, but we find that. truly the categories of gluten-free, grain-free, and probably most importantly in our feedback, the top nine allergen-free is something that we feel that there is white space for and that customers are looking for in addition to, you know, fewer ingredients, simpler ingredients. And when you ask about what differentiates us, we're the only baking mix on the market that calls for the addition of a fresh piece of fruit. So that is something else that makes us different at this time.
[00:34:41] Ray Latif: Interesting. I love that. Um, Tom, as, uh, an investor in a brand that was acquired, uh, called Birchbenders, I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts on, on this brand, but also, um, you know, know how difficult and competitive and challenging this category has become, but you know, what are your initial thoughts on Love & Yum?
[00:35:04] Tom Spier: Yeah, you know, I think it's still an interesting area and it's a big area. You know, Birchbenders was a strong innovator, you know, continues to be in the market. Kodiak, you know, obviously has done a great job. You know, I just happened to take a quick look at their data today. And, you know, in the syndicated data, they're now, you know, 600 million and growing. So, you know, I think there's still growth happening here and, you know, Breakfast, people are coming back to breakfast. It's definitely an area where consumers I think are still doubling down and wanting to make sure they start the day off with the right start. Foundationally, it feels good. I do see you're organic. Is that 100 percent organic across your entire line?
[00:35:50] Speaker 3: USDA certified, correct.
[00:35:52] Tom Spier: That's great. Well, I think that's terrific. I do think your price point, what is the price point on shelf?
[00:36:00] Speaker 3: So the original mix is $19.99 and the protein boosted is $22.99. So certainly a premium product, but of course, as we scale, we expect to bring that down.
[00:36:10] Tom Spier: OK, and then are you on shelf at all at this point?
[00:36:15] Speaker 3: We have a couple of retailers on the East Coast. We've just signed agreements with other retailers on the West Coast, and so we are launching with them in August and in New York in October.
[00:36:30] Tom Spier: It does feel like a pretty hefty price tag at numbers relative to the category. I don't know exactly where the category pricing is today at key retailers, but Um, you know, definitely sub, you know, sub 10 dollars everywhere. Um, so, so, uh, and even, you know, I think a lot of places, you're kind of more in that 5, 6 range, even not on deal. So it's, uh, you know, how do you know? I do think that, you know. that does limit you. So, you know, and how do you think about your future scaling? Where do you, you know, do you worry about it? I mean, well, what do you think?
[00:37:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that, you know, we're aware of this issue, and we are working on, you know, bringing those prices down as we scale. Our target would be to bring the original down to about $15 and probably the same for the protein boosted version. And we think we can do that.
[00:37:35] Tom Spier: And I think at 15 ounces are your bag sizes. I think that's a little larger than the category. How do you settle on that size? Is that sort of where the category is being sold right now?
[00:37:51] Speaker 3: Um, it's actually a little bit larger. And so for future runs, we're considering coming down to 10 ounces. Yeah.
[00:37:59] Tom Spier: Okay. Yeah. And that, you know, as you're looking to kind of maximize and get a price pack that works for consumers, um, that might make a lot of sense. Uh, is the, is the bag resealable or is it a one-time use bag?
[00:38:12] Speaker 3: No, it is resealable. Yeah.
[00:38:16] Ray Latif: I think this definitely is a brand and these are products that speak to a specific type of consumer that's willing to pay, as Tom pointed out, a pretty significant premium for the clean ingredients, for the, uh, the position that you've taken, Gabriela. I think it's a price point that makes trial and demoing maybe a little bit more difficult. How do you get this product into people's hands such that they're so wowed that they have to buy this product? You know, when people typically conversions happen, you know, at a grocery store, when demos are taking place, it seems like a really good opportunity to introduce your brand and convince folks that they should shell out for it. But again, at $16 or more, how do you do it effectively?
[00:39:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, so for the retail partners that we're going to be working with, we're planning on doing a lot of demoing. In the meantime, we have been working with a marketing agency and putting ads out on Meta. We have partnerships with influencers. We're going to be launching a TikTok store. I mean, again, with, you know, it's not necessarily having people have the taste experience, but when they're hearing from trusted influencers or super fans that it's a product they can't live without, we feel that, you know, that's one way of getting the word out to customers.
[00:39:45] Tom Spier: you're on the right approach, and I think it's just important to, you know, until you really optimize your price pack and you start to see the performance on shelves, you just don't go too far, because it just worries me that those price points, you know, the category is being shopped at a lower price. So, on a cautionary note.
[00:40:07] Speaker 3: I appreciate that advice.
[00:40:08] Ray Latif: Yeah. And on your protein pancake mix, it's six grams. Is that the right six grams per serving?
[00:40:15] Speaker 3: Correct.
[00:40:16] Ray Latif: Yeah. How'd you land on that number for protein?
[00:40:20] Speaker 3: So the way we landed on that was I was working with a food technologist. So it was about achieving the right balance between taste and, you know, having enough protein that would be meaningful to the consumer. And so through our experimentation in the kitchen, that's what we landed upon with this formulation.
[00:40:38] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think it's always one of those questions is how much protein do you need and who is it for? Is it kids eating it or adults eating it or really fitness-centric folks eating it? But at the end of the day, I think that once again, this is at this point for a consumer that is looking for a product like this versus, you know, for a broad segment of consumers. But I think, you know, eventually you can get there. Again, Tom mentioned pack size, price point and whatnot. But I mean, do you feel like Love & Yum can be a big brand that you see everywhere in every retailer? Or is it something where you prefer to be sort of a specialty natural item and brand?
[00:41:24] Speaker 3: I think that's a really interesting question. I mean, we're still in the process of collecting data. And so as we have, you know, more data behind us, we can, you know, better understand where we're going. Of course, you know, my dream would be to have Love & Yum be a household name and have, you know, extensions into other baking mixes and eventually, you know, frozen waffles and pancakes, et cetera. But I think it's a little bit too early to know at this point.
[00:41:48] Tom Spier: you know, if you're running a great business and you've got, you know, good margins and it's profitable, you know, to be a small giant and do really, really well is I think better to be a, you know, behemoth that doesn't have healthy profile. And so, you know, for your, for yourself, I think, you know, I'd focus on being that small giant first. And then if you can really prove out the, the, financial metrics, then you can start to really push in some areas and stretch. But we see brands that really get in trouble more often than not when they just go too far too fast, and then supporting all that distribution, the cost of the inventory, and just the nature of our industry with you know, there's lots of, the path to market's usually expensive and, you know, there's fees along the way that erode margins. And until you really have a mature business, you really don't know what those fees look like. You may think, you know, but it just, they kind of come out of nowhere and they're not illegitimate fees. It's just, it's the cost of doing business, you know, products getting hurt in transit and, you know, just, you know, just the little, little things that happen day to day that, that add up.
[00:42:59] Speaker 3: Sure. I think that's really great advice. Thank you.
[00:43:02] Ray Latif: We really haven't talked a ton about packaging today, but I love seeing the actual product on the label design. I may be, you know. Other people might have a different opinion, but, you know, what you see is what you want to get. And that fluffiness that, you know, the maple oozing down the sides of the pancakes, I mean, that really looks like a breakfast dream. Are they as fluffy when they come out? Are they as fluffy like that?
[00:43:27] Speaker 3: They actually are. Yeah. It's the apple cider vinegar and the baking soda that makes them fluffy like that. And you know, when we speak about honesty, transparency is one of our core values. So in designing the packaging, that was something that was really important to me is that I want the customer to know this is actually what they're going to be getting when they make it in their kitchen. So thanks for noticing that.
[00:43:49] Ray Latif: Yeah, it really looks good. And you don't taste, I mean, this is a stupid question, especially if you're someone who's been in the industry for a while, but I'm sure a consumer would ask, you don't taste some of the apple cider vinegar in the pancakes themselves?
[00:44:00] Speaker 3: Absolutely not. No, no, not at all.
[00:44:03] Ray Latif: It's all part of the game and all part of figuring out how best to market to consumers and educate them in a minimal amount of time and investments. So in the meantime, please, Gabrielle, reach out anytime. We would love to help you grow. We'd love to help introduce you to the right people in this industry. And so if you have any questions, please follow up with us anytime. We wanna see Love & Yum succeed and we wanna help you in any way we can.
[00:44:29] Speaker 3: Appreciate it. Very lovely to meet you both.
[00:44:32] Ray Latif: You as well. Thanks so much for being on Elevator Talk today. Our final guest for this episode of Elevator Talk is Felicity Chen. She's the founder and CEO of Doe. Felicity, it's great to see you.
[00:44:46] Speaker 4: Great. It's great to be here. Tom, nice to meet you. Can't wait to get into this chat.
[00:44:51] Ray Latif: Thanks for listening to my podcast.
[00:44:52] Speaker 4: I bet y'all meet a lot of founders and for a lot of them, their success is based on disrupting a space. And in my case, I'm here to preserve one. For 60 years, my family has been preserving the craft behind some of the most important and foundational ingredients in Chinese cooking. My name is Felicity. I founded Dou, a pantry brand built on three generations of manufacturing expertise. We've produced, for decades, the ingredients trusted by restaurants and Asian grocery stores across America. So chances are, you definitely have tasted our products. You just never knew the folks behind them. Dough is the first brand we've built specifically for the everyday consumer. We're bringing foundational Chinese pantry staples into the modern pantry. Our ambition isn't just to sell Chinese ingredients, it's to do for dou ban jiang and sesame oil what Graza, looking at you Tom, did for olive oil and make them everyday essentials. We want to graduate out of the international aisle and become part of how people cook every day by changing how they discover, understand, and use these ingredients. Our launch trio is our sesame oil, our hot sauce, and our chili oil, which are currently available on Amazon. And we plan to expand into retail later this year. They represent a recipe that hasn't changed since my grandfather's time when he introduced, 60 years ago, a hot sauce developed by my Uncle Chen, who is my dad, and a chili oil made with extra virgin olive oil, which was my added interpretation. Our goal isn't to change what people cook, it's to change what they reach for.
[00:46:26] Ray Latif: Outstanding, Felicity. Well done. Since she called you out, Tom, and called you out by name and called out one of the brands that you're invested in, I'll let you kick this off.
[00:46:37] Tom Spier: Yeah, no, I appreciate the call out there. And certainly, you know, I I see aspects of what you're doing that Graza did quite well. And I think it makes a lot of sense. I found it really interesting that you are launching on Amazon, it looks like you're on Amazon shop. And I didn't even find the website for your company. So I bet you have one, but the first thing that comes up, is Amazon, like in a lot of shopping experiences. So maybe just talk us through that decision process and how you think about your retail omni-channel expansion.
[00:47:15] Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. So Amazon, we started here because we wanted to make this product, you know, reachable by a main consumer. I think that when a lot of people look up and think about wanting to cook from a recipe book or whatnot, you know, now the first place to look is on Amazon. You know, we have been in Asian grocers and have been in that market for you know, over 40 years in America. So like, if you go to a grocery store, you'll find our products. But what we're aiming to achieve with this brand is to reach an everyday consumer. And it is at a more premium price point. So when we develop and, you know, launch into retail later this year, it will be in a different bottle. Right now, you know, these products are selling for $14.99, because we have to make it, you know, we have to make a little bit of margin getting it to Amazon. And we've certainly learned a lot, recently launching in the past year and excited to develop these products so that it's a reachable product for everyday audience.
[00:48:22] Tom Spier: That's great. That's great. Well, I think the brand looks really, really good as well. And how did you, you know, did you Iterate on it. Did you use AI to create it? How do you land on the brand? How are consumers responding to it?
[00:48:36] Speaker 4: Oh, amazing. I mean, I mean, certainly as a single founder, you leverage AI as much as you can. But I worked with one of our amazing designers that is a friend and a colleague. And the reason why we kind of kept dough kind of front and center is because Chinese language and Chinese format, everything is vertical. So I wanted this to look very Asian without it being like, obviously, like, putting Chinese characters on everything and, and to tell that culture and history. But that is what I think what we need to do with this brand is to make a Chinese staple part of the everyday culture and it removes, and it's kind of like I mentioned before, like coming out of that international aisle and just being right next to the olive oils or, you know, right next to the sauces. Like it doesn't have to, like we're removing that like concept of retail where you go in and you have to like go find these items in a specific part of the store.
[00:49:43] Tom Spier: Usually, I'm not a huge fan of vertical letters just because it makes it a bit harder for consumers to read it when you're on shelf. The word is short enough and I think it looks great. Maybe in this case, I feel a little differently about it. I really think the packaging stands out.
[00:50:04] Speaker 4: Awesome. Thank you so much.
[00:50:06] Ray Latif: It does, and certainly that squeeze bottle has become ubiquitous in American homes. And just to be clear, for folks who are not watching the video, the name of the brand is spelled D-O-U. I may have missed Felicity, why is it called DOE?
[00:50:21] Speaker 4: So dough means bean and kind of like the sprout, the beginning, and a lot of our products are fermented. And I think that that's a big part of our brand story is to talk about this funkiness that is in Chinese food. And for me, we can really. take that back to fermented products. And so a lot of fermentation for us begins with soybean or some sort of bean, and it's the elevation from there. So that's the reason why I named the brand dough. And it sounds Asian, and just love the way it works.
[00:51:04] Tom Spier: I think it's interesting that, you know, I think when I first read it, I didn't know how to pronounce it, and now I do. But, you know, the discovery aspect of that and having consumers maybe sort of not know, and then maybe they say it wrong to some people, and then they sort of find out, and it sort of becomes its own thing. And, you know, getting people in any way to stop and talk about a brand, yeah, I think you're winning. So getting people to stop and pause and think about you. So even if it wasn't the intention, I think there's some good stuff happening there for you.
[00:51:41] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[00:51:43] Ray Latif: Felicity, you're going big on Amazon. It's very clear. And I couldn't find your website either, just so you know. Do you have a website, by the way?
[00:51:51] Speaker 4: We do, but it's a little, it's just, it's the website for the family business, but we're currently in process of working on that and launching that very soon. So that's all brewing. But yes, the intention right now is to win on Amazon and then taking those learnings and then making that for a wider audience in retail.
[00:52:17] Ray Latif: How often does that translate, Tom, the success or traction you might have on retail and taking that information and sharing it with a retail buyer? How translatable are those two channels?
[00:52:29] Tom Spier: Yeah, no, I think it really matters, especially because the key retailers live in both areas. I mean, all of them do, right? They all have... Click and collect or some version of that. And, you know, I think that that's just sort of table stakes to now. So, um, if you can show. Key facts that show performance and that, you know, that that's what retailers want to see and it's best if it, you know, the price pack is similar and so they can really benchmark, but. If you can go to them and say, hey, we're going to do that, you know, this product would be way too expensive for your shelf because of all the competition. But we have the perfect bottle at the perfect price. We've done the studies and, you know, we're doing amazing on Amazon. We're going to even do better here because X, Y, Z. I think that wins.
[00:53:15] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great thing about working with DTC is that the numbers are very clear.
[00:53:20] Tom Spier: Yeah, and so your family's company today is they have your own manufacturing are you doing everything. Oh wow okay that's exciting.
[00:53:30] Speaker 4: We've manufacturing everything in house and we've been doing this for 60 years before two years in the United States. So I'm the third generation. And to this day, we still manufacturing everything. And we have three different spaces that we produce, but one in Northern California in Union City, one in SoCal, one in New Jersey, and then we have our own manufacturing in China as well as in Thailand.
[00:53:56] Ray Latif: Very cool. Yeah, I mean, creating a modern brand based on a legacy family business is really interesting. And I think The retail aspect of what you're planning to do is also really interesting. If you have a dream retail store to launch in for your wholesale business, what would it be?
[00:54:18] Speaker 4: Certainly Target, Whole Foods as an extension of Amazon. Walmart, I want to make it accessible for the everyday consumer. So for me, it's like where we can get as close to, you know, many, many stores and a big rollout, you know, we're prepared for that. And we're excited to collaborate. And I was really inspired listening to the Scoops and Bakeful founders and talking about their retail rollout. So certainly taking notes.
[00:54:48] Ray Latif: Yeah, I hope you guys connect on LinkedIn or IG or however you might connect. You're all on the same email thread as well, so I'm sure you can reach out that way. Last question is about the size of the bottle. As you consider a Target or a Whole Foods, would you consider a different size bottle? It feels like this one's a pretty good size.
[00:55:08] Speaker 4: This is a 16 ounce right now, and we're going to be switching to a 12 ounce, a cylinder bottle with a flat cap. We learned that with these, even though they're cute and they're perfect for dispensing, they tend to snap off in delivery. So we're going to be switching that over, but very excited. We have a few conversations lined up and excited to see what materializes at the end of the year.
[00:55:35] Ray Latif: Very cool. Well, we have, once again, uh, thank you for sending us samples, Felicity. I saw one upstairs. I pray that it's still upstairs so I can use it later on tonight. But, um, if not, I'll, I'll, I'll buy one on Amazon. Your, your shop on Amazon is, is, is really nice by the way. It's really well designed, very easy to navigate. Um, and I think that's, that's another critical part of selling online is the user experience on whatever platform, uh, you're, you're using. So.
[00:56:02] Speaker 4: And once a new website launches, you'll be the first to know. I'll send it to both of y'all and you can give me your evil eye and give me my feedback, but I'm really excited to get that.
[00:56:14] Ray Latif: Outstanding. Felicity, thank you so much for taking the time. Really excited to see where Doe goes from here. Please stay in touch if there's anything we can help with or any press releases about Retail Launch or your new website. Let us know. We want to talk about it. We want to highlight it on Nosh, Bevanette and Taste Radio.
[00:56:33] Speaker 4: Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[00:56:37] Ray Latif: Tom, four really exciting brands with founders who have a vision for change. I think each of these brands represented an improvement upon what currently exists out there. But in the aggregate, what did you see today that really excites you about these brands and what do they all need to look out for as they continue to scale?
[00:56:59] Tom Spier: Yeah, I think each company obviously has its own set of unique opportunities and challenges, given the categories that are in the existing competition. But, you know, I come away from these Elevator Talk sessions, you know, more or less inspired. I know, you know, I know, you know, That there's a lot of successful stories in our space and just hearing these 4 founders speak about their businesses. I know they're all on their own road and own path, but it does feel like there's real merit to the work they're doing. And I think, you know, as long as each individual is intellectually honest with themselves, and, you know, I think that really helps these founders make decisions faster and, you know, exercise the best judgment as they're trying to, you know, find their way to their future state. So, yeah, it was really, really great. It's a little too close to lunch to talk about four businesses and food. I definitely, you know, worked up an appetite, so looking forward to having some food in a little bit. It's going to be a great day after those chats.
[00:58:10] Ray Latif: Yeah, my stomach has been growling for about 45 minutes right now, and I'm sure it's going to keep going until I get some food in my stomach. And I want to point out, you know, it's interesting, we talk about Elevator Talk and There are a couple of brands in your portfolio, including Graza, where way back in the day when they launched, they were on this show and like anyone, you know, you give them a certain chance and like any early stage brand, you don't know how it's going to pan out. You don't know for sure how it's going to pan out, but there is always a path and how rigorous that path is and how effective you are navigating that path ultimately makes a brand successful or otherwise. And I think there is some exciting stuff on the horizon for all four of these founders.
[00:58:56] Tom Spier: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Sometimes you see these things and even us as investors, we'd love to have perfect information, but we're going off of gut and instinct a lot of times because the windows that we have to make a decision to invest are usually somewhat tight because the companies that are the most explosive, the most exciting, they're out there. You know, we can't just sit on our hands. We've got to decide to go when we see something we like and we meet people we like. So that's really what we're out there trying to do. And I'm very appreciative of you giving me a chance to meet these four individuals today or meet three and reconnect with one.
[00:59:38] Ray Latif: Yeah. Well, I hope you get to meet a lot more folks in our audience who are listening. What is the best way to get in touch with you and your team at BFG Partners?
[00:59:45] Tom Spier: Yeah, no, thanks for asking that. We have an email address set up if you want to send us an email. We, of course, appreciate a bit of information with it. It is dealteam at bfgpartners.com. And yeah, that's the very best way to get in touch with us. So again, it is dealteam at bfgpartners.com.
[01:00:06] Ray Latif: And don't just send samples out of the blue. We've talked about this, right?
[01:00:10] Tom Spier: Yeah, again, just a refresher on that. We just want to preserve your capital and your valuable samples. So probably best to send an email first. And then if we get to a stage when we're spending more time together, we may ask for samples or pay for them ourselves. But we just want to be respectful of you and your capital and so forth.
[01:00:30] Ray Latif: Tom, you're the best, really. Thank you so much for taking your time. I know how busy you are and how much you've got going on. So just to have you for an hour every so often talking to early stage founders, talking to our audience, it's really meaningful. And I can't thank you enough once again for joining us on Elevator Talks today.
[01:00:47] Tom Spier: Ray, right back at you and thank you for everything you're doing for our industry along the way. I know how many valuable discussions you've had with entrepreneurs and how many incredible insights people are gaining from listening to you over the years. So thank you for that.
[01:01:02] Ray Latif: I really appreciate that. That's what we're aiming for. That's what we try to do is really bring discussion, awareness, and insights to our audience and to our industry as a whole. And thank you so much again. Thanks to all of the entrepreneurs who joined us today on Elevator Talk. And thanks to our incredible team at BevNET, Nosh, and Taste Radio, the best in the business. Signing off for everyone, I'm Ray Latif, and we'll talk to you next time.
