Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio right now. I am supremely honored to be sitting down with Ashley Nickelsen, who's the founder, and CEO of B.T.R. Nation. Ashley, it's so great to see you, Ray. It is so great to see you. I've been waiting to hear that introduction for about five years, and that day is here and I'm so excited to be in person.
We are in person. You're in person at BevNET CPG Media HQ in Newton, Massachusetts. You made the trek all the way from San Francisco. We did. I didn't know you lived in San Francisco. How is this not, we've known each other for six years almost. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Strange. I didn't know. I, I'm always on the road, so I'm traveling so much, but that is home.
But I'm also, I'm a native New Yorker, so I have ties born and raised. Staten Island, but lived most of my life in Manhattan. Went to NYU, that's where I met my now husband. So New York is like, runs deep. So I'm in New York a couple times a year. I'm in LA all the time. Salt Lake City, 'cause we manufacture there.
So I'm pretty much like live on the road. And my three and a half year old daughter, every day that I travel, she wants a toy. So that's pretty much how we FaceTime. I show her the toy and she is really happy and excited. And then as soon as I get home, that's like my, my time to be with her. That's amazing.
Do you know that song? Oh, I'm a Native New Yorker. Do you ever sing that song? Oh, I'm a native New Yorker. It's like, oh, I'm a native New Yorker. No, no. I had, now I have to look this up. Yeah. Maybe you don't. 'cause I, that's the first time I ever sang on Taste radio. Good. This first eight episodes. That's the first time, first for everything.
Yes. Oh my goodness. Now I have to look it up though. I'm proud of it. I'm proud of my New York roots. So, as much as I love California, it's born and raised. I can feel that. Yeah. Before we hopped on the mic, you were talking about visiting Union Square, the Union Square, whole Foods, and it being a real experience for you.
Oh yeah. When we launch nationwide in Whole Foods, I knew I was coming back to New York. It's, uh, I actually wish there was a Whole Foods on Staten Island one day. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Uh, we need it on Staten Island. So I haven't, I haven't been back to Staten Island in, in a while, but I'm in Manhattan all the time.
We have incredible angel investors out there. I went to NYU, so being back in Union Square and demoing our product, selling out the shelf and being like next door to the residence hall that I used to live in. I can't say dorm because I was a fun fact. I was an ra. I was an RA too. Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, where'd you go to school?
Boston University. Oh. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend Boston in the way bu that is in the way that you recommend NYU. But, uh, anyway, that's just my hating on bu I get it. I get it. Yeah. So my best friend went to BU as well too. Okay. So I went to NYU, she went to bu and it was, I was up at BU when she was here too.
And I do, I have a love for Boston, so it's nice to be back. Yeah. But it's, uh, NYU, I don't know. I just, it was wild. It was like you weren't, you lived in Manhattan. Mm. And you. Went to school as people were going to work. It was just such a wild experience and I wanted to give back. And before I entered the CPG world, the wild CPG world, my first master's is in higher education.
So that's a fun fact that like not a lot of people know, but it taught me so much about building community because that's what we did is I led staff meetings and I had professionals under me and all the things, and it was. Really fun. And when my parents got sick, that's when I was like, there's something that I wanna do more in like health and wellness.
And that's what led me to CPG. So I don't know if you, if you knew this or if the listeners knew, but I, I worked in the supplement space before coming here and I was a head of sales and marketing at a company called Further Food. And we were. E-commerce focused and that's where grew that company from zero to 10 million in like three and a half years.
And that's where I learned everything, taught myself everything. We were a lean, scrappy team, just like we are at B.T.R.. We were three and it was wild. And that was my first taste into the CPG world. And I loved it, but I always loved food. I'm just a foodie. Like supplements are great. They're amazing. They don't taste very good though.
The, so I was in collagen and collagen's pretty tasteless. Yeah. So, but still, it's like, I still can't believe like supplements that we take on a daily basis. It's like colostrum, collagen, like when you really think about what these things are. Mm-hmm. Kinda, you do a double take. But people love it. People love buying supplements.
It was a very. Prosperous industry margins were amazing and totally different than food and Bev, but there was something about feeding people that, I come from a large Italian family and there's something about feeding people that's very special. That's different than, I'm gonna take my multivitamin, I'm gonna take this gummy.
Oh my goodness. Gummies are blowing up. Yeah, so everyone's making a gummy, but it's food is special. It absolutely is. I've mentioned on this podcast, uh, a few times that my family's been in the food business for a long time. I've been going to the Fancy Food Show since I was a kid. We owned a chain of gourmet food stores Yeah.
In Massachusetts and Connecticut. And now my family owns one store in, in Hartford. My brothers run it. It's called Tans International. And. My dad has always told us he's rest in peace. He's, uh, he's since passed, but he always used to say, you know, we're not just building a business here. We're not just making money, we're feeding the community.
Yeah. Yeah. And we're feeding the community good food. Yeah. And that always stuck with me because. It's a larger goal. It's more than just the sort of grind of working, preparing food, sitting in front of a cash register and so on and so forth. Keep that in the back of your mind that you're doing good. Now, granted, you're not saving the world.
Yeah. You know, you're not a heart transplant surgeon. You're not doing those kinds of things, but if you're just making money, then. Is it that fulfilling? Yeah. There's something missing, and I'm always reminded of this 'cause we're very close to our community and customer base. We are digitally native. I don't even know exactly what I mean.
I guess that means what it means. Like you start online, and that's my background is e-commerce. But for us being nationwide in every grocery store that aligns with B.T.R. is is our dream because that's where people are. People are shopping everywhere. But that's where you get to like. Talk to your people.
And it was lovely. Yesterday, one of our customers called and she just wanted to share how excited she was about us being in Whole Foods, and I've, I've never spoken to her on the phone and from that conversation, it was like 45 minutes from that conversation. She's now gonna be a brand ambassador for us.
She lives in Scottsdale. She's like, I'm gonna demo at Whole Foods. I got this. I just, all I want is more B.T.R. swag so I can rep the brand. And, and she said this right before we hung up. She's like, I know it's just bars. To you. And I was like, it's not just bars, it's my, my parents' name is in this, my legacy, like everything is in this brand.
But she was like, you're doing something that no one else is doing. And I was like, yeah, that's because, uh, no one else wants to, wants to make products without natural flavors. So difficult to do. But she was like, it's, this is so needed in the world and I just wanted you to know that. And, and that's why I called and which is always sweet because usually when customers call, they're like, where's my order?
I've been waiting one day. We're not Amazon. It's coming. And this was a lovely call. That's always where it's the reminder that we're doing something bigger than the daily puzzles and problems that we have to solve. Yeah. You are not just here for this podcast interview. You're here to do some store checks.
You are national in Whole Foods We, and you're about to launch in a major northeast retailer, one of my favorites. Very excited for that as well, you know. I imagine that a lot of people hearing from you for the first time, Ashley are thinking, wow, she's really gregarious and easy to talk to and seems like a very extroverted kind of person.
And the first time I met you was five and a half years ago when you joined us for an episode of Elevator Talk, and you were with I think nine other entrepreneurs. That's back when you were doing 10 interviews per episode, and I recall you being a little bit. More on the shy side. Yeah. Have you always been a bit more extroverted or were you just shy for that episode?
Or how have you kind of gotten into this role of being a spokesperson for your brand as much as you are the founder? Oh, it's such a good question. I love people and I've always been an extrovert and I'm always the one in my friend group that's like talking to new people and just, uh, I wouldn't say the life of the party.
I'm very good, like one-on-one. But I do like, I love, we were just talking about Expo and all the trade shows and it's like, it's. Being in a room with your closest, I mean, I don't wanna say a hundred thousand friends, but that is really what it feels like. And I, I do love that energy, but I think when I was starting the company, I, I, I mean, we're all a little scared, right?
It's. It's brand new and I think we, it was, you know, obviously we've heard the words unprecedented times so many times in the pandemic, and I think there's something when I, you know, I obviously worked for a brand and I was the head of sales and marketing and really kind of like took that brand and put it on the map and.
That was different because it was for someone else. And this is for me, and I think that it's my parents' story. I was still trying to figure out it was, we were literally like day one. I don't even know if we had product at that point. No, it you were brand new. Brand new. Yeah. It was wonderful, honestly. And from that.
Episode actually we had so many like retailer requests and I was like, whoa, this is amazing. This is gonna be so, this is a piece of cake. It's gonna be so easy. And it was wonderful. We had like no product so that we had to really like figure out and be like, okay, we gotta already scale up. It was great, but, but.
It's a muscle. It's a muscle. And I think every time I talk to founders and see founders at trade shows and it's like, oh, how do you show your life? Or how do you get on Instagram and or TikTok? And first I learn, right? Like I actually learn from. A lot of creators, so I consume a good amount of content, probably about like 30 to 35 minutes of content daily to just see what's going on in the world and see mannerisms, right?
Sometimes it's as easy as how do you enter a frame, and it's, if you don't know that and you're not consuming content, it's gonna be really scary for you to just prop your phone up and start recording yourself. But it starts. Slowly. First it's prop your phone up and record yourself, like typing on your computer.
It might seem weird, but like answer an email in that timeframe. Mm-hmm. Now you have B roll that you can use in probably like five different clips. Right. Record yourself walking. Right. Because we're a very small team and we, you know, a year ago we were like two people and now we're five, so we're a little more robust, but it's still very, very lean.
And that includes also full-time warehouse team as well, because we. One very unique thing about us, so we do get the chance to really get good behind the scenes is we warehouse ourselves so we don't self manufacture. We have amazing co-manufacturers that we work with, awesome partners and we self warehouse, which is really interesting for CPG brands because most either do all or none.
And we don't work with a three PL for several reasons. Hmm. It's, uh. We do it all ourselves. 'cause we have the ability to customize. So I brought you like a sampler box. Right? Right. That's very easy and very cost effective for us to do and us to manage. And this is like my startup experience, super scrappy previous company, we did work with a three pl, but I learned everything because I was.
Ops, I was sales, I was marketing. I learned everything about building a three pl and when we started out I was like, I'm gonna do this. Let's see if we can do it ourselves for maybe it's only for a little bit. And now we're in 3,500 square feet and we just very excited. We just got a forklift. It's a big day.
It's a very big thing when John gets, yes, anytime ever I've ever talked to a founder who talks about their forklift, they're so proud. We're very passionate about it. Of their forklift. Yes, John, it's, it's like he'll send me videos when I'm on the road. John's our warehouse manager and holds. Down the fourth.
Nice. He is part of our family. It's amazing. Everyone wants more John content on Instagram and we're all ourselves, but people are watching us like, I don't wanna say a reality show, 'cause I'm not really that into reality tv. I just don't get it. But I do get it because people wanna watch people. So for us, we wanna show people like, this is so personal to us and we are the ones that are answering your emails.
We are the ones that are packing your products with love. And that is where it starts. It's very tough to get on camera. It's so hard. It is. For a long time. When I joined BevNET actually, I was behind the camera. That's how I started out. And I never wanted to be in front of the camera. I never wanted to be the voice or the face of anything.
It's such a good voice. Oh, I appreciate you saying that. It's taken some time. That's it. It's, it's so, it's time. It's, and it is a muscle. It's every day. I try to share this all the time. Even if you don't. Post it. I film so much content and I'm filming behind the scenes. Yeah, you good B-roll right now. You got your camera in the corner there.
I film so much content, but we probably post 30% of it. I wanna post more, but a lot, you know, we gotta edit. You don't need to see me like take a sip of water, right? There's so many things that editing is, it is a fine skill and I do recommend not the founder, CEO, like it doesn't have to be you, but finding someone who becomes one of the faces of your brand and not.
I say this kindly, but there's just a million UGC creators. Millions of them. Yeah, and I get it. I have a ton of respect for, it is hard work to buy a product from the store. Film yourself. If you are looking for the face of your brand, UGC serves a purpose. But if you're looking for someone to be the face, you have to find someone who is gonna be consistent with you, aligned on your voice and just.
Really like, knows your mission instead of like all these different faces. It's kinda like a demo team. You know when you hire an outside demo team and they're just kind of standing there bored looking at their phone. Yeah. You're like, why did I even hire this person? Yeah. They have no stake in the brand.
They, they're not communicating the passion that we are trying to represent as a brand, the identity of who we are. And I think you do it really well on social media. Thank you. When I'm. On Instagram and I see your content, it feels really authentic and part of the reason it feels really authentic is because some of the posts in particular are very vulnerable for you.
Yes. And I think this goes back to the origin story of B.T.R. Nation. And when I first heard from you in first talk with you, I felt it. Yeah. Because you created this brand for a reason. Yes. It's really personal. Let's talk about that. Re let's talk about the why. The brand is very personal. B.T.R. stands for be bold, tenacious, and resilient.
It's my parents' personal mantra, and I lost both my parents to very rare forms of cancer before I turned 30. So I grew up really fast. My mom was diagnosed, oh, in, I. My mid twenties, and so I didn't really have my twenties to really figure things out. I'm an only child. She had been sick for a while, was misdiagnosed, and this is, you know, a decade ago at this point.
And there have been so many advancements since then, which I'm so grateful for. And if, uh, if she was alive today, I think they would've caught it a little bit earlier. So it stays with me. It stays with me. So she was the first one in our family to get sick. She had a, something called a m sarcoma. And I won't get, I won't get too morbid in all the things, but people.
Everyone goes through this. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who has cancer or has disease, and it strikes a nerve with our entire community. Even if you're not like a B.T.R. stand forever because the we'll get to bars. Bars, you know, it's very hard. We, we have some ride or die loyalists, but a lot of people like to dabble in, eat three or four different bars.
Mm-hmm. Even if you're not a Stan, you relate to the brand and you feel it and you understand what we're trying to do here. So when my mom got sick. I like shut the world out. It was super, super hard and I really, really went into a hole and and just really struggled. And then when my dad got sick, and this was two years, I mean it was two years later, he was already feeling symptoms, but we kind of dismissed it because we were like, that would be a cruel joke.
And I remember distinctly when my dad, he was going under surgery, they thought it was a gallbladder, and the surgeon came out and he was crying and I was like, okay, this is. Bad. And they had diagnosed him with appendic cancer that was aggressive and spread to his whole peritoneal lining. I, I was a biochemistry major.
I, yeah. And pre-med, I was gonna be a doctor. Thank goodness. I, I didn't, I didn't go that path because it would have been, would've even struck more of a nerve. And in that moment I knew I had to like, dig myself out. And my now husband, I've been with my husband over a decade as well, and he was.
Instrumental in that as well. And I did what I do best to throw myself into work. Definitely a workaholic over here. And I got to work, I was working at the supplement company and I really wanted to make that my own. And I really, it was like a baby to me. And then when the pandemic hit, that was where I. I heard my parents, they were like, this is great.
I was, you know, so invested and working 110 hour weeks and traveling the country, still big traveler. And I was like, I, I have to do something for them. And that was, you know, I think the pandemic was such a wake up call for so many. That's why there's so many pandemic baby businesses as well, where there's just a boom of people that are like, am I really happy?
Life is short. It's precious. Like, let me do something that I want and. And B.T.R. was born. I had these recipes that I was making specifically for my dad because my mom didn't get a chance to see a lot of this, but my dad fought for years and I was making these bites and I still have pictures on my phone.
I feel like things started in 2016 where I was starting to take notes and I even documented the journey back then and just took pictures and was making things in my own kitchen. And I thought maybe this was like a catering gig. And my dad was like, no. I see this product going into Whole Foods. He specifically referenced Whole Foods, so every time I walk into Whole Foods, I won't cry here, but every time I walk into Whole Foods, I, there's so much, obviously, you know, we're looking at the data every single day, and there's so much that we're combing through that's really serious and operationally heavy, but.
At the core, like this is what my dad wanted. Mm-hmm. So that really brings me back and it keeps me very grounded as well too because I think it's very easy to get caught up in production, sales, hiring, all of the things, social, everything. There's so many moving pieces and that I constantly probably, at least once a day, I'm brought back to my North Star.
And for me personally, it's, you know, obviously honoring my parents' legacy, but for us as a company, it's customer. Revenue, those two together and making sure that we're delivering on our promise and what, you know, my dad and my mom, if my mom probably thinks that I'm crazy, 100%. She was definitely not as much of a risk taker, but my dad was an entrepreneur at heart and it was always his dream to open a bagel shop in New York City and sell bagels.
He loves bagels. So every time I'm in New York, I always eat all the bagels and. That was his dream. So I definitely feel like I'm, you know, fulfilling their legacy. And my dad actually was the one, he worked in legal and trademarks and he incorporated this company for me before it was even a thing. And before I had an idea before, I mean, I had some recipes and that's how it started.
What an amazing story and what a beautiful tribute to your parents, especially because B.T.R. Nation is doing quite well and you are leading this brand to a place where people. I think respect your brand as very different from Yes. What everything else that's in the category. Yes. And are seeing what you're trying to do and seeing the vision that you had from the outset.
I recall that vending machines were a big reason for being for the brand at the outset too. I mean, when you think about. These legacy vending machines, or at least the products that are in there. There's not a lot of good stuff in there. Yeah. So the bars, were they intended to be very much focused on like the vending machine, I guess, industry, and then you would build from there?
Or did you ever get into vending machines? Oh my goodness, it's such a great question. So the aha moment happened in front of the vending machine. So, and hospital vending machines to this day are still pretty terrible. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's shocking, right? It's shocking. Why is there still jello.
That they serve people. Yeah. Like that nasty jello that they serve people in hospitals like what's this is green? Yeah. But it's definitely not from like kale to what hospitals are a business. Yeah. They're a business and food is not top priority. And I get it. In some cases. It's definitely not the top priority, but it should definitely be a priority somewhere else.
It says everything you need to know about the medical industry, I guess. It's pretty wild. Yeah, so vending machines were like this place where I get my inspiration from. So bars, I am a cereal bar eater, like have eaten a bar every single day for the past, I don't even know, since 15 years old. I just still eating cereal bars or.
Cereal. Like S-E-R-I-L-A. Oh, cereal Bar Eater. I thought you were talking about like Nutrigrain or something. No. Oh, no, no, no, no. I was like, oh gosh, no. Yeah, no, you're not eating that, but I Daily. Daily. Okay. Just love, I always loved bars. Love the bar industry. Well. Love, hate the bar industry. It's a wild, wild industry.
Very happy and honored to be a part of it, honestly. Because if you wanna learn and you want to build something that can stand the test of time, make a bar, because that is when you see your bars flying off the shelf, you see your velocities. That's how you know you've got something because bars are so competitive, like beverage, but it's not.
Uh, people look at bars and they see, oh. Well this must be the same as this, but not anymore. That was 5, 7, 8 years ago. Things have changed and people really, really know. So bars is where we got our start, but I always knew, which is really funny 'cause I did name the company B.T.R. Bar and a year later I was like, I knew we were making more than bars.
Vending machines are only where we get our inspiration and anything that can come out of a vending machine, AKA chocolate, AKA, we do have a, can't share it here, but we are debuting a brand new product line at. Expo West. It is very exciting and it's, it's a little different for us, but still in line with our values.
So our values are always the lowest possible sugar that we can possibly have while still using the cleanest, simplest ingredients. And that's always been this white space in the industry and it's something that I never got before I got into the industry and now I know, and it's. Very, very, it's ridiculously difficult to do from an r and d perspective, but we've got it down to a science now.
But it is very, very difficult to create products without natural flavors. They're in 90 plus percent mm-hmm. Of packaged products in the grocery store. And for us it's, it's less about like, Ooh, ingredients, bad, good. Like, we're not really. Calling them out in the same way. It's more about transparency.
That's really what it is for me. And I just, I wanna know what I'm consuming. I want it, well, even I consume natural flavors. 'cause you have to, there's very difficult to eat or drink anything. Mm-hmm. Unless you grow it yourself. So besides B.T.R.I have to eat other things. I wanna know what I'm putting in my product that I am.
Feeding to millions of people. Yeah. About 10 years ago, I sat down with the founder of Spin Drift. Oh yes. Spin Drift is one of the only drinks I can drink. Yeah. So, um, besides water, they had started out as a soda company, evolved into a sparkling water company. They sell soda now, ironically, but one of their.
Tenets for formulation was that they were not going to this. This changed in 2016, was that they were not going to include natural flavors anymore. Yeah, yeah. And the reason was because every single time they went to a flavor company. They just didn't get a good answer as to where this product or where this ingredient came from.
Yeah. Or is it actually natural or is, is it manipulated in any way? So I said, okay, we're just gonna use fruit juice and purees, and it's more expensive. But I think it enhance, it enhances the premium feel and nature of who they are. Yeah. And people are willing to pay for more and people are willing to pay for.
Products that they feel they can trust. Yes. How did you start to build trust among your initial consumers and how did you get them to sing the gospel of B.T.R. Nation? Oh, that's a good question. I know a lot of founders say it happens organically and it's like, and people on the other side of this listening are like, but what does that mean?
And I'm gonna say the exact same thing. It does happen organically, but here I think is my biggest tip. 'cause I wanna make sure I'm giving out tangibles. I am in the dms and I know people are gonna listen to this and be like, you can't scale that way. And I get it. And I know, I know. And I have definitely taken a step back.
I'm a marketer and I love marketing. I have people. On my team that are in marketing, which is wild to me, but being in the dms, giving a little bit of time, like I said, 30, 35 minutes a day. Mm-hmm. Even if it's. I mean, I, I don't own a car, so I have the luxury of like taking public transit or Ubering. So even if it's, if it's there, I like to spend time talking to our customers.
They will tell you everything that you need to know and they will tell you why they love you, and then they wanna. Talk to you. You know, I do feel like this very, very minor celebrity, I'm putting that in air quotes to our customers. Not necessarily in the industry, but to our customers. They feel, I mean, I met someone in the aisle last night that was like, oh my goodness, this is, they didn't even know who we were, but I talked to them, stop them.
I was like, why are you buying that bar? Just curious. Love to. Get all the insights and they started following us on Instagram and they're like, oh my God, that's you. So if I message you, like, will I talk to you? And I'm like, not all the time. Definitely not all the time, but sometimes. Sure. Like for now, right?
As we're really head down building and getting to know our customers, and now we know them. We know what they want, we know what they're looking for and they sell the product for us. So it's, it's, I see this a lot of demos where. Someone will come up and be at our demo table, they'll try it and they're like, you gotta try this.
Right? So it's either because of taste, because of story, or because of product attributes. And we have all three. And that's really, that's really good. That's great for us. Yay. But when you are looking. To build that community, you have to, or you or someone from your team, right? Someone has to be there that has a face.
It really goes back to the face. If we're looking at, you know, there's so many creators that are making products and not all of them are gonna be successful, but there are some that are really successful. And I think a lot of times as founders, we say like, oh, it's because they're a celebrity. And sometimes it is, but sometimes they're really out there hustling.
They built that community. It's sometimes 10 years on YouTube or Instagram, like they earned those followers because they spoke about themselves. They built this brand around themselves and now they have a product. And how do founders that don't have that compete? We do it. Right. So it's like Gary V had this amazing Instagram reel yesterday that I saw, and it was like.
People want people who are vulnerable. People want people who are people. There's so much right now in the world. The world is such a heavy place and it's because people feel like. There's a lot of frauds out there. So the way not to combat that is to show who you are and just to be authentically you.
And that is, it's, it seems like so basic, but it can literally start from like propping up your phone or taking a selfie and posting that and being like, let me do a reintroduction of who I am and why I started this brand, and I can guarantee that that post is gonna get way more likes and comments and shares than a post of a recipe that someone made.
And it gets better over time. Yes. I mean, the first time you do it, as you talked about before, it, you know, may not be perfect. Mm-hmm. But it's a starting point and eventually you'll get better and better and better at it. Yes. Now I, when you were talking, I was thinking of a brand that is famous for their founder forward approach to social media.
That's midday squares. Yes. Yes. And they just very much built that brand as a reality. Yes. Almost TV show brand and people know them. Yes. They feel connected to them. Yeah. And that's important. It's critical. They're people, and I don't think you need to necessarily go as far as they have gone in showing everything, you know, being all transparent behind the scenes about what they do.
But you do need to create a bond with your customers, with your consumers, and I think. DMing is one surefire way to get connected to people in a really tangible way. Yeah. And quick and easy. Yeah. It's, you know, like, oh, your dog is so cute. I use that as an example because we're people, right? When we're consuming content, why are we scrolling?
I see this, I like to observe when I fly a lot. I, everyone is just scrolling past things, but they're consuming the contents before they scroll past it. So for us, even if their creators we're not working with, or we definitely can't sponsor because we don't have the budget for them. I'm still like cheering them on.
Right. It's because maybe they'll see a message and that message like becomes something else and then they're like, oh wait, I spoke to the founder of that brand, and they pick up the product in Whole Foods and then they try it and then they share it organically and then we have a thousand sales. Right.
It really does work like that. Do you feel like the dms and the work you do online really enhances your digital presence in e-commerce as much as it does brick and mortar, or does it affect one more than the other? That's a good question, and as we expand nationally and roll out more. I know it definitely impacts retail.
I mean, our Whole Foods launch has been incredible, and the first 24, 48 hours was wild and it's still every day. It's amazing to see on Instagram and TikTok specifically hundreds of people messaging us. Through either dms commenting, and this is daily, which is really, really exciting. And it's because either they've heard of the brand and it's we're not necessarily in their area yet, and they're just so excited to go and support.
Or they're new to the brand and they're like, oh my goodness, this product is blowing my mind. How did I not know about this? So it's a flywheel. So what we see in store, people are like, oh my goodness, let me come online on our website, Amazon Thrive. And buy more product because now I'm obsessed with this product and because we're building this product portfolio, we're not just one product and it gives us an opportunity to, okay, people who love the bars, now they're running into Whole Foods to buy all the product and sell out the shelves, which is, it's a nice flywheel and it's working all together.
The more that we grow, we are going to be doing like certain exclusives, right? We'll do certain exclusives for online, certain exclusives for retail, and that's operationally very heavy, but also really fun and it gives consumers want. The new bright and shiny stuff. So it, uh, it keeps people on their feet.
And it's, uh, in my opinion, I think maybe 20 years ago, you could have this like hero product and you could ride with it, right? Like Heinz ketchup is a great example. That's not 20 years ago, but centuries ago you could do this. Mm-hmm. And. Now it's a little different. I feel like people want new drops. They want things that are exciting and it's, we see it in brick and mortar.
We see it with like the crumble philosophy. Right? Right. And it's, that's, these new drops are exciting and it keeps people buying your existing product, but also trying something new. It increases average order value. It gives you new retailers. So for us, that is a model that we are really excited about and that is how we're building our business as we launch a new product line.
We're pretty much thinking we're sticking to three verticals. Um, and we've been working on this vertical for like 13 months. Wow. So it's a no. Natural flavors takes a really long time, but we got it. And we're so excited. Well, good news. This episode is gonna drop right before or right as soon as Expo.
It's great. Launches or It's great. So, you know, I hope Booth end 1261 come and try it. N 61, N 1261. N 1261 in the North Hall. Well, north Hall is always the, uh, yes. Popping the crazy hall, especially when the show gets started. Paid ads is something that can be a really scary and complex process for a lot of entrepreneurs.
And you Penn something on LinkedIn that I thought was brilliant. Thank you. Got a lot of good engagement talking about the power of meta ads and now, you know, I, people have their own opinions about Facebook and Instagram and Meta as the company overall, but. It can be a very powerful way to reach new consumers.
Talk about what you've learned about your meta strategy over the past year. Oh, we've learned a lot and couple things. So the first thing is if you're scared to try it. The algorithm will know. So how do you mean You don't necessarily have to put a lot of budget towards something, but you have to go in on creative.
And that once again doesn't necessarily mean that you need to invest in a super expensive agency to create all of your assets. I mean, our best performing meta ad in 2025, which drove hundreds of thousands of dollars of sales, one ad. I designed it in Canva in five minutes. What was the content of that ad?
It was about ingredients, right? Because it was super controversial because everyone has something to share and ton of positive feedback, but we also can get negative feedback and that's good too. So a lot of times people will, A big one is when people make fun of my voice. So hopefully no one's thinking.
I know. Wait, what? I think my voice is pretty. Natural people are so mean. It's good though. It's good. So, and I also, so sidebar, I see a business coach slash therapist. Mm-hmm. Once, twice a month to process all of this. Right? Because it's not easy. Like, it definitely, like in the moment when I see something where it's like, Ugh, this lady's voice is so annoying.
Or, oh, your, you know, your hair is so bad. That's another one. My hair, I have no idea. Why go get a haircut? 'cause the internet is full of trolls. They are. They are. But those trolls are good. Yeah, they're good for engagement. Okay. So sometimes I'll take that comment and then we'll be nice about it and I'll be like, okay, well you have a nice day too, right?
Like I am, our brand is not super sassy. Like we have to both stay aligned with our voice. I'm not really sassy. Like I'm not really good at comebacks, right? So I'm just gonna say like, be as nice as I can and be like, you know, that's really mean. But thanks for stopping by. You could have just kept scrolling.
Something that simple. But we have people that come to our defense. Like this is a woman owned brand and like she lost her parents. And how could you and like people come to our, our defense and that helps with engagement as well. So this particular ad though, that didn't have anything to do with my hair or my voice, but it was controversial because it said, because every ingredient matters and we listed what was not in the product.
And very different than sometimes when people are like, okay, here's what's in the product, right? This is what's not in it. Mm-hmm. And obviously people loved it, excited about it, but it also sparked. Conversation, right? It's like, no soy. Oh, why don't you use soy or no natural flavors. Big one, right? That is, we actually have an ad running right now that's really about like, what are natural flavors?
And people in the comments are like, what are natural flavors? Like I always feel like it's interesting that I see them and I don't really like know how to avoid them, but like, I wanna know more. And people want that and they want that conversation and that helps engagement. In meta so that overall, anything that can spark some conversation is really helpful.
So for us, we don't have a lot of unboxing videos. Sometimes they work and they might work very well for brands. We've tested it. It's not for us. Right. I don't get it. I don't, as a consumer who buys a lot of products and loves this industry so much, I would not be influenced to buy something when it's like.
Okay, here's the product I got in the mail and here's a bite of it. And oh my goodness, look at the texture. Right? And I, I get it. And that might really get some people, but for us, that doesn't work for us. So for, for us, it's either very simple static like 1, 2, 3 message points about what makes us different.
Or like a full video, right? Video content, that's B roll. Usually it's voiceover, but I mean, we sell a bar almost every seven seconds. On our, I should do a LinkedIn post about this on our website alone. This doesn't include other e-commerce channels. So it's working. It's working. And of course, you know, we started spending like a thousand dollars, right?
And now it's a lot more than that. Okay. When you think about return on investment, what's your strategy? How do you gauge whether a particular spend is worth? That investment. So meta actually is, is really good at attribution. So you can actually see your ROI on every single ad. And the thing that's really important that I wanna stress is don't get too attach.
To the creative and like constantly be creating. And we see, you know, we see this from major e-commerce brands, so I like to take a look at all of the brands that are crushing it in retail, all of the brands that are crushing it at e-commerce and be like, this is amazing. We're a hybrid and I wanna take the best in class strategies and the best in class strategy from, you know, top tier e-commerce brands.
Like you take a look at Gros. They are testing constantly constant creative. Right. And even if your budget cannot match, 'cause our budget can't match a groom's budget, that's okay. Right? Because we can still identify the strategies that are working. Right. Which is a lot of creative. And when creative isn't working, even if it's like, oh, I really thought this would work.
I see this a lot. I thought this would work. It's so perfect. It's aligned with the brand. It's beautiful. Like it's a beautiful image, right? It's professional photography, it should work. Kill it. Right? It's gotta go. Because when you say does it work, are you just talking about in terms of engagement, is it generating sales?
Generating sales. Okay. It's important, definitely. But, 'cause if it's not getting reach, but meta knows, right? If it's not getting reach, also kill it. That is how we've been advised as well. So if it's not getting the reach. It's probably not gonna get the sales because no one's, there's not enough eyeballs on it.
But you can actually see the ROI that you're generating in Metas platform. So you can also create unique discount codes if you're directing to your own Shopify site. It's totally different when you're generating revenue and pushing people into store. And we actually do have set, and we invest heavily in store campaigns because it really works.
So with our nationwide launch in Whole Foods, we're directing people. In store. We are running all of these awesome ads in Whole Foods. It's really exciting. This is how people are also finding the brand. And then that's where the attribution, it's a little tough to see and that's why we're constantly, constantly reviewing our data.
I mean, if I could on an hour by hour basis, I would, but on a daily basis to see where we geo-targeting which region is performing even better than the others, which ads in which regions right. So granular and as a small team, it is very, very difficult. So yes, I do work like a hundred hours a week, but at the same time, we've grown our team too, right?
To help with this. So it's, you gotta be in the data constantly. How much of the data that you're able to pull from Whole Foods is applicable to say a Costco? Hmm. So every channel strategy, even within retail, is so different. But when you have a customer and you are seeing those velocities. You can take that data story and we do, right?
We take our data stories and we're bringing it into every retailer pitch. So we take our e-commerce data and we bring it into retailer pitches. So we can say, Hey, you have all of these stores in these zip codes. Look at how many sales that we're generating monthly. Look at all the subscribers that are in those zip codes you want.
And it is a much easier data story to tell because data is so important and so valuable. It's everything. And you also wanna make sure for us, we, you know, we're B.T.R. Nation, but we launched as B.T.R. bar, you wanna make sure that you're coded correctly. So for the first time, we bought data, and that's important as well too, because now not only do you have.
Own data, which is critical. We always have our own data. We know how we're doing. It's great. You have competitive data and that is the most exciting thing to see. So especially when your velocities are crazy high, because now you have this data story where it's like, oh my goodness, look at our last 52 weeks.
Look at our last 16 weeks. It changes the game. And data. Yes, it is expensive. It's something that you have to justify, is something that you have to make sense for your company. But when the time comes, nothing tells the story better than data. I. Love when analytical data is available to brands because it can tell a big part of that sales story.
It can tell you where you're performing best. Perhaps it, it can even tell you where you might be best merchandised in store. Yes, but it might not tell you about how people feel about the brand. The anecdotal data is so critical, especially when it comes to your packaging, your packaging. Everyone here, everybody says this.
This is your billboard, right? Yes. This is like, this is your first. Sort of entry point for a consumer. So when they see your dark chocolate almond butter hearts, which are amazing, by the way, thank you. For me, this is your Valentine's packaging. But for me, I see the chocolate. I see the texture of the chocolate inside two grams of sugar really speaks to me.
There's something about it that says, Hey, pick me up. That's good. That's what we wanted to say. And yeah. Hey, pick me up. We're in a comfort zone here. Like yes, we're in a safe space where you don't have to feel like you're being intimidated by whatever's in here. Exactly. And that's exactly what we're going for.
Yeah. And when you started out, I remember asking you an elevator talking about where'd you get your, you know, packaging from? Like, who designed this? 'cause this is brilliant. And it seems like everything. That you've done since has been built from that initial package design and that whole feel. So talk about your branding and talk about the kind of feel that you're trying to, I mean, it sounds like I'm experiencing what you intended.
Yes, yes. It's good. It's good. So we want it to be approachable and accessible. So packaging is so, so critical, and we are always iterating, we're always tinkering, especially as retailers also share a lot of feedback too, where, you know, we're in our fiber era, right? Oh, I don't know if the protein error will ever end.
And it's, I mean, I love protein, right? Like if we make protein bars, I get it. It's gonna dampen I you think So? I feel like it's, everything is over protein at this point. There's so much protein. There's protein. There'll be protein in the chair you're sitting in before, before it's all said and done. Well, someone, someone's gonna wanna eat it, then it's uh, it's pretty wild.
It's pretty wild. And we definitely, were seeing obviously, an influx of excited new people that are like, oh my god, protein and it's clean, like. People do love that. So we're definitely benefiting. But we, at our core, we are not a protein only brand. We make protein bars that are the cleanest bars. That's what we're going for.
And this is a change too. So from our original packaging we have now, 'cause we make our high protein line called Protein plus, we needed to differentiate. Our, which we always called them superfood bars, but we needed to differentiate it even more. So Superfood became the hierarchy. If you remember, we used to have energy recharge, bliss vitality, rest in peace.
I love them online. People love them. In theory, people love them. You have 0.5 seconds in a grocery store to get people's attention, and people were like, oh, this is because they're super foods, right? And over and over and over again, we demoed and I have personally done over a hundred demos. I was like, yeah, it is because they're super foods in, and it's, it was just so clear to me and so easy.
The other thing we wanted to point out to people that was not in our first iteration of our packaging is that we're a nut butter bar. There are not many nut butter bars in the market. They're either, you can only make a bar in basically three ways, dates, nuts, or lots of artificial junk. Right. There's really only three ways to do it.
Mm-hmm. And it's really, by the way, what's, what's ot? I've always accepted Nu you know, like in Snickers bar, they say, you know this, this chewy, nuit. What is that? No, I I was saying, I was waiting for you saying it with a lot of gluten. Maybe it's nut based. I don't know. It's not, it's probably gluten based or just like Yeah, it's probably gluten based.
Yeah. Yeah. It's probably like the cookie piece of it, so, yeah. But being a nut butter brand. Yes, absolutely. Yes. It's so that also also speaks to me, it's very clear and nuts or healthy fats, but there's not a lot of nut butter bars in the market. Right. It's us and, and Perfect Bar. Mm-hmm. I love Perfect Bar because it's, I mean, clean ingredients, simple ingredients.
Right. That's what we're trying to go for. But I knew from the. Image, the visualization of the packaging that came to me, right? So I, I tinker a lot and I still actually like mock up packaging for our brand new line. Launching at Expo West, debuting at Expo West, I'm sorry, launching a little later end of March, April.
I tinker, I actually mock it up. I draw it, and then we work with a designer, same designer since we started the brand called Riser. I'm gonna shout them out. I love them. And we consistently get the same questions from founders that are like, oh, but packaging is expensive and design is exp and I get it. I get it.
It's not cheap. But we do, I try to do all of the legwork. As much as possible. And then riser has been amazing and they're a duo. There's two of them. And they're just wonderful. And they take everything that's in my brain, everything that's on paper and they make it look like this. But all of the color schemes, that is me.
So that's like just comes to me in my brain and based on what we want you to feel when you're eating the products, that's really what I go back to. And actually, I love packaging design, but I definitely need to be in like a creative head space. To get it done. And I do a lot on planes because I travel so much and it's great.
It's a great way to like get stuff done. And then there I am with like a sketchpad and people next to me are like, what are you doing? Um, but I've actually also met some CPG founders sitting next to me on a plane, so it's, yeah. Make friends that way. Can I talk about innovation for a sec, because Sure. You, you've alluded to the new product line a number of times now.
I was actually a little surprised. This was a fancy food show, I think it was two years ago in New York City. When you introduced your chocolates, and I love them. I remember you like, Hey, wait, try these. And I'm like, oh my God, these are incredible. A lot of bar brands that I know, that's all they do. They just stick to bars.
What gave you confidence that you had the permission to go into different product categories? I do ask myself this every day, especially because we take some leaps, right? And obviously our chocolates going nationwide. Right now we're launching a new line. We are very, very hyper-focused and we also, we know the split of revenue bars, chocolate.
We're constantly looking at it. We are a portfolio brand, right? Like the whole, we're a better snacking portfolio and platform. So when I take a look at icons like Simple Mills and STE that are better snacking platforms, like that's who we aspire to be with our specific value prop with. As little sugar as possible.
No added sugar, no refined sugar, and the cleanest, simplest ingredient, so we're not gonna stray from that ever. Chocolate for me was very scary because chocolate is so operationally heavy to make. I know a lot of brands that share about this all the time. We had a really, really rough cocoa market. Much, much better now, but in 2024, it was the terrible cocoa market.
My mom's favorite candy was peanut butter cup. It really comes back to thinking about my childhood, things that I ate in my childhood and how I wanna make them better, and if other brands are already doing them. So like I have a ton of friends in the industry and if other brands are doing them really well, we are not gonna make it.
I don't wanna say never say never, but like. There's no need. It's there. I consume that product. Mm-hmm. I love that brand. We wanna do things that people aren't doing because that's how you become a timeless brand and you stand the test of time. So that's what we want. We don't wanna make exactly what already exists on the shelf and slap a new label on it, because then it's just a battle of who has more money, and that's fine too.
But for us, that is not where I'm coming from with the brand. So for us, chocolate was definitely scary. It paid off, so it was definitely a big risk. But because we make our own chocolate from scratch, we don't use off the shelf chocolate, which is its own whole thing. We make our own fillings from scratch, right?
These are, it's an operationally complex product, but that is what gives it the depth, the boldness. That's why when people say, oh my goodness, I've never tasted anything like this besides like a very premium upscale chocolate that also has a ton of sugar. That's what we're going for. Like we wanna be that premium.
I'm indulging, but for a much more cost effective, much more relatable, approachable. We don't sit in the premium chocolate set. We want to sit next to the lilies, the Unreal's of the world, because that's the type of product we're trying to commercialize. This really cool in experience and. Scale it up massively, which we have done.
Yeah. Knock on wood. Very exciting moment. But scary. And if you, it's scary if you want, if you wanna serve people better food, they have to be able to afford it. Yes, I think so. That's a really good point. So when you start out, do you start out thinking about price as much as you are in ingredients and formulation?
So it's a good question. I'm super transparent. We do, we're always thinking about price and we know, especially in retail, we need to be competitive. Otherwise it's just, it's gotta move. And people are super price sensitive, especially in retail, where you can easily compare a price. Very different than an online price where people are looking at shipping.
Is it an all included cost? Right. So for us, our chocolates online are much more. Expensive. Mm-hmm. Because we offer free shipping and it is a strategy that we do, and our conversion rates are literally like a hundred percent higher than the industry average because we offer free shipping. And I imagine your costs are a little bit lower 'cause you control warehousing.
Exactly. And logistics and fulfillment. Exactly. Exactly. But the price is more expensive than, I don't say much more, but definitely more expensive than what you would see it on shelf. But for us, this is great because when people are walking into a store, they're going to buy it automatically from the store.
That's obviously amazing for velocity. So price, we are always thinking about it, but we think about ingredients first, ingredients and taste first. And then we sometimes take a leap and are like, okay, well we gotta get this to making, you know, 3 million units. Cool. This is where we're gonna be making 3 million units.
Let's go. I mentioned at the top of the show, I'm supremely honored. I really am. This is my favorite story to tell. It's my favorite conversation to have. Thank you. Someone who I met. When they were guess brand new. Yeah. Didn't even have product, didn't even have product. And now here you are. And so I feel like if we can be a tiny, tiny part of that story, it just makes me really happy and I hope we can continue to be a part of that story.
Yes. As you continue to grow, I'm honored. I mean, I could talk for at least another hour with you, Ray, so, um, but I will spare the listeners. I'm just so honored to be here and so grateful for everything that you do for this industry. I would love to talk to you for another hour, but your phone in the corner has been blowing up.
I love, and I'm. I'm worried actually now 'cause I'm, I'm thinking, oh my gosh. Ashley has a lot to do and I'm taking up all her time during the day. But no, in all seriousness, thank you so much. Thank you Ray. Thanks for making the trip and I am thrilled to share this conversation with our audience. I'm so excited.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
