[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello, and thanks for tuning in to Taste Radio, the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food and beverage. I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and it's my co-host for this episode, Jacqui Brugliera and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we're going to be chatting about Jackie's not-so-secret magic mushrooms conference, overused and annoying terms on LinkedIn and Instagram, and whether cannabis beverages will start to dominate in the future. We also feature an interview with Amy Racine, the Beverage Director for John Fraser Restaurants, who discusses the evolution of on-premise drinking culture. Interestingly enough, John Craven is in San Diego, but not in the San Diego office. I assume he's surfing. Is that what he does?
[00:00:56] Jacqui Brugliera: Probably, yeah. I don't know. It's rainy, so I don't know what he's doing over there.
[00:00:59] Mike Schneider: Oh my gosh, I would take a rainy surf day in San Diego any day.
[00:01:03] Ray Latif: You know, I think it was raining the last time he was there in February and he jetted us into Austin in midweek. I guess you can do that when you have like a ton of points on JetBlue, but anyway, yeah. Feels kind of lonely in the office without John to my right, but I'm happy that you're here, Mike. Thanks, Ray. You're pretty happy these days with the way Arsenal's playing.
[00:01:23] Mike Schneider: Yeah, for sure. I mean, Iron Route and then take out Burnley. What'd you say? The Iron Route, 6-0. Are you talking about West Ham?
[00:01:32] Ray Latif: Oh, for crying out loud. This is what happens John Craven is in here. I know, this is exactly, he's not Yeah, exactly.
[00:01:41] Mike Schneider: He usually has like a broomstick under the table where he said he jabs Mike with Haven't you seen the button in his hand that I'm very badly burned
[00:01:54] Ray Latif: I could get out. You just shot me. Anyway, Jackie, I mentioned that you went to a magic mushrooms conference.
[00:02:06] Mike Schneider: Shroomcon.
[00:02:08] Ray Latif: Yes. This sounds very illegal, yet I saw your posts on Instagram look like there were a lot of people there. And yet no one, not a single person, as far as I could tell, was arrested.
[00:02:19] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, not that I knew of. I found it on Eventbrite. So something that was promoted.
[00:02:25] Ray Latif: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This was publicly promoted on Eventbrite?
[00:02:31] Mike Schneider: Right. You are a victim of many, many, many, many, many, many years of government propaganda thinking that mushrooms are evil.
[00:02:39] Ray Latif: Did I even imply that mushrooms are evil?
[00:02:42] Mike Schneider: I mean, you just Jackie went to an illegal event. Therefore, she must be a criminal.
[00:02:47] Ray Latif: I know that magic mushrooms are still considered a prohibited drug, essentially.
[00:02:54] Mike Schneider: Can we skip this part and just ask Jackie what this is like? I'm fascinated.
[00:02:58] Ray Latif: Okay, go ahead.
[00:02:59] Mike Schneider: Come on. Yes.
[00:03:00] Jacqui Brugliera: Yes. So I found it on Eventbrite and obviously I saw mushrooms and I was like, I got to go to this, a mushroom expo. They did kind of hide the name, didn't they? What was it like? It was very vague, I will say, in the description. And I went and it was a legit expo. There were booths, there were companies exhibiting, there were packaged products, there were both just functional mushroom products as well as, you know,
[00:03:30] Mike Schneider: I definitely pictured it being like old school bar camp where you just showed up at a bar and someone did like this some grassroots talk or Everybody had you know his gorilla sampling and just pulling stuff out of bags, but Jackie's like this was legit it was
[00:03:46] Jacqui Brugliera: Very professional. There were two stages for education. So I learned a lot about how to cultivate mushrooms, the different strains of mushrooms. It's kind of like when THC was starting to build momentum and you're starting to learn more about microdosing versus macrodosing and the different strains. I mean, cannabinoids, that's the same thing that's happening right now with psychedelic mushrooms is that you can learn that like this mushroom is going to have this effect on you or this one's going to have another effect. And then you can also microdose and not have psychoactive results. And it's just good for your brain and mental health. So it's a lot of things that, you know, people are learning about. And it was interesting because each booth I stopped by, people had their own like educational materials because there are a lot of newbies in the room. And there's a lot that I had to learn as far as, you know, dosage or the effects of it. And also where are you getting it from?
[00:04:42] Mike Schneider: They made you wear a big noob sticker, right?
[00:04:45] Jacqui Brugliera: Every booth I went to, I was like, I am a beginner. Please let me know what I need to know.
[00:04:51] Ray Latif: So could you actually sample at the event? Were there booze? Were there brands?
[00:04:55] Jacqui Brugliera: It was like the mini Expo West of magic mushrooms. There were samples, but they were all micro and they were all different. There were gummies, there were chocolates, there was a beverage. And some of them had really great packaging. Some of them, you know, were just entering the scene. But yeah, very interesting. And then you could obviously buy some of the other products there.
[00:05:16] Ray Latif: Now, I'm not a narc, but where exactly in San Diego was the sales?
[00:05:21] Jacqui Brugliera: It was in Barrio Logan, which is actually where all the cool new things are happening in San Diego.
[00:05:26] Mike Schneider: OK. What was the name of this conference for people who want to follow it on Instagram?
[00:05:30] Jacqui Brugliera: Entheogen expo and entheogen means like anything that like has psychoactive properties Okay, something to look into I imagine your garden variety police officer doesn't know what that means I don't know what it meant were there restrictions on whether people could consume the mushrooms at the event or you know Do they have to eat them?
[00:05:50] Ray Latif: after they left?
[00:05:52] Jacqui Brugliera: There was no restrictions. Yeah, you could eat whatever you wanted there, consume whatever you wanted. I could definitely tell people were consuming based on some conversations.
[00:06:03] Mike Schneider: So I thought this was, you know, mushrooms that were not psychoactive. And then I see Jackie's story. Like, she's telling the story and you see the packages and you see all that stuff. And then she's like, there's a picture of Jackie with this big smile on her face. And he just says, hi, I'm life. And there's a mushroom emoji.
[00:06:20] Ray Latif: Okay, we'll have to dive a bit deeper into this, and I don't necessarily want to hear about your experience post-event with your mushroom dabbling.
[00:06:29] Mike Schneider: I can apply for the new shroom showdown.
[00:06:32] Ray Latif: You know, it may come to that. It may come to that. Probably. Ten years ago, could you have ever imagined an event like this?
[00:06:41] Mike Schneider: No, not 10 years ago, but now I could imagine someone with, you know, just the way that THC beverages apply for the New Beverage Showdown, you'll have psychoactive mushroom enhanced products that apply for the Pitch Slam.
[00:06:54] Ray Latif: This is true, but I think- Or the new beverage showdown. THC as an ingredient in Cannabis On a product have been deprioritized, I believe, by the federal government in favor of going after people who are, you know, dealing much harder drugs and not to call marijuana a drug, but you know, you know what I'm talking about.
[00:07:17] Mike Schneider: I get what you're talking about, right? I mean, especially having grown up when you did and- We didn't grow up in the same decade. We didn't grow up in the same place, but we grew up about the same time. So yes, I'm older a little bit, but the propaganda from the government around, you know, marijuana and mushrooms is that it is, those are gateway drug to the harder drugs. And I, I mean, I, I just, I've learned otherwise.
[00:07:45] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah. I mean, there were also a lot of people that I met that they stopped drinking. They had like alcohol problems with the use of mushrooms. So similar to like THC, it's just like a healthier alternative for some people and it's natural.
[00:07:59] Ray Latif: You know, you brought up an interesting point, Mike, because I think my biggest fear with ever trying marijuana or THC beverages, and I still, as far as I know, have not, definitely not the marijuana, THC beverages, I may have, I don't know, accidentally sampled something, but was that it could be a stepping stone to something harder. And I just wanted to not even dabble in that space. But I think when you are a bit older and a bit more mature, you can probably be a bit more thoughtful about how you consume these things.
[00:08:36] Mike Schneider: Well, our industry is also helping us be a lot more thoughtful about it too. You've got products like Colexo, you've got Magic Cactus and Wink and Drippy and those that, and Can of course, that all are just the smallest amount. And if I don't melt from that and I just get like a little bit chill from that, then I think I think it's okay to say that those are relatively safe in terms of just the amount of buzz that you're going to get because I'm ridiculously sensitive to cannabis.
[00:09:06] Jacqui Brugliera: And I think like there's now regulation, you know, around THC products, whereas before there wasn't. So you weren't, you didn't know if you ate this cookie, how high you would get versus like this cookie. Like you didn't know that if the dosage was equal. So I think like the more... Can I keep the Camino anyone? So the more like regulations that go into it, I think it just makes consumers feel safer that they know exactly what they're consuming. And especially with lower dosages, like you can control your high, just similar to like drinking, you know, two glasses of wine versus like the whole bottle. You kind of know what you're getting into.
[00:09:38] Mike Schneider: And so many people have the story and a lot of times the story is about a fucking gummy. It's like the way that you break down a gummy and the way that it injects the THC into your system or the cannabinoid that it creates is stronger and less predictable than having it through a beverage.
[00:09:59] Ray Latif: We talked about this in an episode a few months back or at least a few weeks back. And I think the key attribute to the future of cannabis beverages and just Cannabis On general is trust, right? You want to trust that what you're consuming is what is described on the can, is what is described by the brand. and is, to a certain extent, regulated. And I think this is a good segue to a tweet that John responded to, even though he's not here, I wanna talk about this, that John responded to last week. This person, Noah Sanborn, posted this on X. I think cannabis-infused beverages are likely to be the most common weed consumption method in the next five to 10 years. That's a bold statement, especially given the amount of cannabis that's smoked in this country. But John responded with, I second this theory. I would think there has to be a ton. I mean, a ton of cannabis beverages consumed. That would have to be, you know, a hundred plus billion dollar industry, right? Yeah.
[00:11:02] Mike Schneider: It seems a little aspirational at the moment to just say that in that time period, because Jackie was talking about this before the show. She thinks we're going to see it on tap.
[00:11:12] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah.
[00:11:12] Mike Schneider: And that's the key.
[00:11:13] Jacqui Brugliera: I envision a bar in the future as having like beer on tap, cannabis beverage on tap and like a mushroom beverage.
[00:11:21] Mike Schneider: Yeah, mushrooms for sure.
[00:11:22] Jacqui Brugliera: You know, like I just see that as like the future. It's just the perfect vehicle to hit the masses. And also the onset too is similar to alcohol where you feel it a lot faster and you digest it a lot faster than say like an edible or like a gummy or something like that. And I think it's just more relatable and an easier switch for people that already drink alcohol. And so many people drink alcohol.
[00:11:46] Ray Latif: But that's the key. How does it actually get behind the bar? And that is really a government decision at the local, state, and federal level. And at the federal level in particular, I mean, you know, the DEA could come and shut down every cannabis business, whether they be a farming operation or a brand in a second. Be like, this is over. So until there is concrete legislation out there that says Cannabis On actually a legal ingredient and it can be legally consumed in this country, and mushrooms as well, I'm just, I'm pretty bearish. on this idea that cannabis beverages could be this big.
[00:12:27] Mike Schneider: They haven't renamed it to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Cannabis, Mushrooms, and Firearms yet.
[00:12:34] Ray Latif: I mean, there's multiple government agencies that are tackling this issue. But anyway, yeah, who knows?
[00:12:39] Mike Schneider: You know, if John were here, I think he could probably... I'm just glad you went to this, Jackie, and that didn't get shut down and that you got to experience it. I'm just excited to... I'm excited about the future of mushrooms too, and I can't wait to try.
[00:12:51] Ray Latif: Okay. Here, I'm going to challenge folks who are listening. If you really truly believe that you'll be drinking a lot more mushrooms or that the availability of mushroom beverages and cannabis-infused beverages will be, I don't know, tenfold in the next five years, let us know. Send us an email to askattasteradio.com. I certainly hope that the amount of beverages containing Cognizant is 10 to 20 to 50 folds in the next five years. Cognizant is the presenting sponsor for this episode of Taste Radio. Cognizant is a clinically tested nootropic ingredient that delivers a patented form of acetylcholine to supply your brain and those of your consumers with the energy it needs to stay sharp. Learn more. at Cognizant.com, that's C-O-G-N-I-Z-I-N.com. Mike, did you have your dose of Cognizant this morning? No, I guess you didn't.
[00:13:49] Jacqui Brugliera: You're struggling today.
[00:13:50] Ray Latif: A little bit, a little bit. You got a can of poppy to your left.
[00:13:54] Mike Schneider: I do, I've got some poppy. So this is a new poppy wild berry that they sent us in a tall boy can. Yeah, 16 ounces. A little extra poppy for me.
[00:14:03] Ray Latif: It's all boys usually represents a foray into C stores. Everybody looks the tall boy and convenience stores It seems like a lot more.
[00:14:12] Mike Schneider: That's gonna be the next move for poppy Perhaps perhaps I mean I I could see it poppies poppin You know, it's super popular after the Super Bowl ad, you know, the reason people do Super Bowl ads Ray is that they work We talked about this.
[00:14:26] Ray Latif: Yeah, so let's see where it goes. Yeah, I A lot of people listened to that episode. We got some good comments on LinkedIn about our discussion of Poppy's potential, so to speak.
[00:14:38] Amy Racine: Did you get a lot of, let's go?
[00:14:40] Ray Latif: Oh boy. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's something that we need to fix on LinkedIn and Instagram and Twitter is these, these common overused, frankly, annoying terms and phrases that we just are overwhelmed with. I just, I tune out so quickly when I see someone be like, LFG on a post or, you know, crushing it. And, you know, crushing it. People are saying that less than they had in the past, but LFG is still out there. Please, for the love of God, stop using that term. Figure something. I mean, there's gotta be a new term. It's 2024. You gotta stop using LFG. I think Tom Brady's actually stopped using that. And he was the guy who was the most often using that phrase or term.
[00:15:24] Jacqui Brugliera: How about it's lit?
[00:15:26] Ray Latif: It's lit? I don't hear that very often.
[00:15:28] Jacqui Brugliera: You don't hear that very often? No. On LinkedIn or on Instagram? More so Instagram. I haven't really seen anyone say it's lit on LinkedIn.
[00:15:37] Ray Latif: LinkedIn, it's like the 30 and 40 year olds who are way too old to be saying it's lit are saying LFG. Mike, you just, you're really frustrated with just, I don't know, these are pretty common words. Honestly, literally everything.
[00:15:50] Mike Schneider: Honestly. No, those are the three that I'm most frustrated with.
[00:15:54] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, those are definitely millennial terms and I'm a millennial. So whenever I say that's perfect, Mike's like, no, no, no, it's not actually perfect. Don't use that word unless it's actually perfect.
[00:16:07] Mike Schneider: I have the burden of being a marketer, so we have to use words that we mean. We have to mean what we say and say what we mean. We can't just like say, oh, that's perfect because, oh shit, it's not. And someone thinks it is, we're in trouble. So when someone says honestly, if they're actually being honest. They're lying to you before. That's it. You don't need to say honestly. Think of how Crunch Time you waste typing those words, first of all. So literally everyone who says honestly is lying. That's what you're telling me right now. They're selling you something usually when they when you go into the mode where you're honestly you're either trying to end an argument or you're selling something or you think you're right and the other person isn't because you came in with the honestly. Mike Is being very calm about this, but he was smashing the table before he got on the mic.
[00:16:51] Ray Latif: He almost broke the table in half. I feel strongly about this. Yeah, the way he's like wringing his hands right now, if you're watching the video.
[00:16:58] Jacqui Brugliera: He's triggered.
[00:16:58] Ray Latif: Yeah, exactly. He almost started biting his nails. I get fired up about this. Yeah. Language is important. The words you use are important. It is important. And I appreciate the fact that people get really excited about a win or supporting other founders. But we gotta find some new phrases, folks. I don't know what those phrases are. I don't know what those terms are, but... Ray Latif! Yeah, that's... Hashtag Ray Latif. Don't do that. Hashtag Ray Latif.
[00:17:29] Jacqui Brugliera: Start using BevNET acronyms like DNS and...
[00:17:35] Ray Latif: DNS is an interesting term, by the way. My dad had opened a chain of gourmet food stores. I think I've talked about this on the podcast. Anyway, my family owned a chain of gourmet food stores in the past and we used to go to the fancy food show a lot. And he would always be as kind as possible, even though he was a pretty blunt guy, when he was talking about something that he didn't like. So if he was on the show floor and he tasted something that he didn't like, and they'd be like, oh, sir, what do you think of this product? He'd be like, well, it's better than lousy.
[00:18:10] Mike Schneider: Sounds like that, but it's and then that's once again stands for does not suck does not It's really good like we really like oh this does because you got to think of the tone It's like I'm drinking this poppy. All right ready. It's like oh That does not suck
[00:18:31] Ray Latif: Yeah. That's the absence of good, right? Does not suck. No, it's the absence of bad. The opposite of that is it sucks.
[00:18:39] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah. I guess like it is all in the tone. Like if I said, ugh, it doesn't suck. Like that's different than that does not suck.
[00:18:47] Mike Schneider: That does not suck. That's how I mean it when I say DNS. Because I put a big DNS on a beverage.
[00:18:55] Ray Latif: We need to clip and use that video of Jackie saying, that does not suck. Because, you know, if you could sell... Tons of products like that, Jackie. I like the way you did that. Very, very good. Yeah.
[00:19:08] Jacqui Brugliera: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:19:09] Ray Latif: Yes. I also like the way that we embrace our Taste Radio VIPs. I mean, these are just people who are in the know, who are just a part of a community that wants to be great in our industry, that wants to be part of a great cohort of founders and operators and other folks in our industry who are just leaders and. want to see good. Clearly the motto is let's go.
[00:19:40] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, I literally wanted to say LFG.
[00:19:44] Ray Latif: You yourself as a listener can become a Taste Radio VIP or part of the Taste Radio VIP community by going to Taste Radio.com slash VIP. There will be opportunities to be part of the show, part of the podcast, upcoming meetups and events to engage with Taste Radio hosts and tips on how to get your product talked about on the air, and perhaps even secret meetups at Expo West.
[00:20:12] Mike Schneider: Honestly, it's lit.
[00:20:13] Ray Latif: Jesus. It's lit. All right. No, seriously. Seriously, we're going to be doing some fun stuff at Expo West. I need to brush my teeth. We're going to be doing some really fun things with the VIP community at Expo West. You got to be a member, please, if you can. to find out about these fun things that we're doing. Once again, Taste Radio.com slash VIP to sign up. All right. Bunch of new products, tons and tons of new products on the table. Actually, there's one new product that, no, one product that isn't new, but I found this at an Asian grocery store. It's called H Mart here in the Boston area. And I had to buy it. I posted this on Instagram and it caused a bit of a stir. So Ritz crackers, R-I-T-Z, everyone knows what Ritz are. They make different kinds of flavors and varieties of their crackers for different countries. And in Korea, they make a sandwich cracker that is just known simply as white, W-H-I-T-E. And it looks like an Oreo, but with two Ritz crackers and a white filling. But people were kind of confused about what the filling was. A lot of people said cheese, which I think has a bright white- I'm pretty sure it's Oreo stuff. But a bright white cheese sounds gross.
[00:21:30] Jacqui Brugliera: What's kind of like white cheddar mac and cheese, you know?
[00:21:33] Ray Latif: I don't know. They do taste good. They do taste good. What is it, Ray? It's vanilla frosting. It's vanilla frosting in between two Ritz crackers.
[00:21:45] Jacqui Brugliera: So you have like sweet and salty going on?
[00:21:48] Ray Latif: Exactly. Sweet and salty kind of thing. All we need is heat. It tastes good. I dipped some in some tea last night. It is a little pricey. It was four bucks for this box. And there's, I don't know, probably. We got any sriracha? Eight crackers or eight sandwich crackers in here.
[00:22:03] Mike Schneider: So no sriracha. No more guzzling.
[00:22:06] Ray Latif: No more guzzling. Okay. What is that? Melting Forest? What is that?
[00:22:09] Mike Schneider: Oh yeah. Speaking of mushrooms. We got some Melting Forest Mushroom Energy. Well, they're mushroom beverages. So this one is, there's a few different flavors. I grabbed two of them. This one is Orange Cream Mushroom Energy. And then I also have Mushroom De-Stress Coconut Pineapple. So... These are mushroom drinks. They have different mushrooms in them. These are adaptogenic mushrooms to be clear. Adaptogenic mushrooms, right? Not psychoactive mushrooms like we were talking about before. This one has cordyceps, lion's mane, L-theanine, panax notoginseng, and green coffee bean for energy. And the mushroom de-stress has organic reishi, lion's mane, L-theanine, rhodiola rosea extract, and magnesium and vitamin B. Six.
[00:23:01] Ray Latif: Can I make a comment here? I appreciate the fact that these folks are the founders. They're creating a mushroom energy product. Yes. But calling it Melting Forest and having the sort of dreamy vibe and landscape of mushrooms on the front makes it feel like it has a psychoactive component to it. Papadelics too. It's the papadelics effect. The papadelics effect. And here's the thing. I mean, the last thing I think of, unless energy was on the front of the can, which it is, the last thing I think of when I see this sort of dreamy landscape and mushrooms, frankly, is energy.
[00:23:41] Mike Schneider: I just keep hoping that the psychoactive mushrooms are going to land on my desk at some point. I mean, we're closer now, thanks to Jackie going to ShroomCon, but everyone has their business card. But I saw these I thought exactly what you thought and I went oh my gosh, it's happening But then you look at the top, you know, there's nothing safe about these cans. They're not legal anyway, so yeah that hasn't happened yet and I always wonder if The roadmap is to go in that direction when it becomes legal and this is like the gateway but people say that's not the case and
[00:24:14] Ray Latif: But even the closure at the top of the can, I mean, it's a pop top, but the top of the can is all black. It is black. So again, I thought it was dangerous. Right.
[00:24:23] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah.
[00:24:23] Ray Latif: I don't know. Yeah. I think, uh, the folks at Melting Forest, good idea, but I think some, some tweaks need to be made for the packaging or on the label.
[00:24:32] Jacqui Brugliera: I have a functional mushroom beverage that I think you would feel safer drinking, Ray. It's called Good Dirt. Good stuff. Yeah. So it's a line of sodas that are fueled by mushrooms, functional mushrooms, and this is their Chaga Cola. And it's very simple ingredients. It's really just water, date syrup, a probiotic or a prebiotic, excuse me, blend and mushrooms. So this one has lion's mane, turkey tail, and reishi. but it calls out Chaga on the front. So my, I guess my only suggestion is, you know, talk about the function a little bit more because still people don't know what Chaga does. Chaga is for like immune support and it's anti-inflammatory. But I think if someone's just looking for like Date Better for you soda that has a little bit of a functional component and they like mushrooms, this will be a great option for them.
[00:25:27] Mike Schneider: I have another suggestion that hold that can up for a second would you yes the color of that looks like The red dirt t-shirts that you get in Hawaii. I mean there really isn't Good Dirt to eat So I don't know I feel like going to all the trouble that you want you to formulate a delicious beverage Put it into a can create a label all that and calling it Good Dirt. I feel like you've got a hurdle to leap there I
[00:25:53] Ray Latif: Well, what I would do, Mike Is I were in your seat, is I would tune in to the next episode of BevNET and Nosh's Elevator Talk, because we feature the founders of Good Dirt on that show. Lynn and Mario Calloway are the co-founders of Good Dirt. And they talk about the origins of the brand and why they called it what they did and where they're trying to position it in store. And it's a really good discussion. They also, Good Dirt, just got into Sprouts, all Sprouts nationwide. So very excited for them.
[00:26:27] Amy Racine: That's where I found it.
[00:26:29] Ray Latif: And yes, please tune into that episode, Mike, and please tune into that episode, folks. You can find it on BevNET.com. Now, I have a really interesting product. It's called, or a new line of products called Snoods, new brand of products that is. And it is a snacking noodle. Essentially, it's a pasta that you can snack on. It comes in these three ounce pouches. There's three varieties. There's a Cava Tappy Carbonara, a Rigatoni Basil Pomodoro, and a Spicy Miso Ramen. Geez, I can't speak today.
[00:27:03] Mike Schneider: Man, I like any company that sends snoods.
[00:27:05] Ray Latif: Yeah, it debuted earlier this month on February 1st. It's described as the first chef-driven, globally-inspired noodle snack. It was conceptualized and founded by Lauren Bowden after winning Netflix's newest cooking competition show, Snack vs. Chef. So yeah, apparently Lauren's been obsessed with this idea of making snacks out of pasta. Mike Is figured you might want to try these. I've already tried the spicy miso ramen. That does not suck. I feel like it's an acquired texture. Maybe not an acquired taste, but it's definitely an acquired texture, if that makes sense.
[00:27:43] Jacqui Brugliera: I used to, when I was a kid, actually take like the ramen like packets and just eat them with a little bit of the like spice packet on it. So I think this would be for me.
[00:27:54] Mike Schneider: I ate raw pasta, so.
[00:27:56] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, me too.
[00:27:58] Ray Latif: Okay. So if you like raw pasta, you will absolutely love this, Jackie.
[00:28:03] Jacqui Brugliera: Okay.
[00:28:03] Ray Latif: This is awesome. So I'm biting into the rigatoni basil pomodoro. It tastes like pasta. with sauce, but pasta that's uncooked with sauce. These have maximum crunch, that's true.
[00:28:16] Mike Schneider: You will enjoy that one, Mike Is I've had the spicy miso ramen, now I'm gonna go for the, oh, these are actual rigatoni. Oh my god, this is old school, I'm like a little kid.
[00:28:26] Ray Latif: The rigatoni ones look exactly like rigatoni. They look like Uncooked rigatoni. Look, Mike's got the biggest smile on his face.
[00:28:33] Jacqui Brugliera: It must be a little bit softer.
[00:28:34] Ray Latif: It's a little softer than what we're used to, like eating it raw, but it's close. You know, I like the rigatoni one a little bit more now that I've had a couple. But still, I think the hard part of this is going to be getting people to associate, I don't know, the texture of a crunchy snack with the sort of pasta crunch.
[00:29:01] Mike Schneider: I think there's going to be a bit of education here, but what Jackie was talking about, eating ramen, quote, raw, is not that uncommon. It's not that uncommon. Okay.
[00:29:15] Ray Latif: Mike's going to try the last one here. This is a Cavatepe. Okay. Cavatepe. I can't, I can't pronounce that.
[00:29:20] Mike Schneider: That's pretty good too. Mike looks like a little kid. This reminds me of Fusili Jerry.
[00:29:25] Ray Latif: It does look like Fusili Jerry. I also got recently some samples from a brand called Date Better.
[00:29:34] Mike Schneider: Thank you, Snoods.
[00:29:36] Ray Latif: Date Better, thanks for sending snoods, markets dark chocolate covered dates. There are four varieties. There's a peanut butter crunch, there's a cashew lime crisp, there is a hazelnut praline, and there's an almond java Crunch Time packaging, as Mike pointed out earlier, is fantastic. Stunning. It comes in these 2.4 ounce boxes and the color scheme is really striking.
[00:30:03] Mike Schneider: It's also the best feeling package I've ever held. It feels like suede.
[00:30:09] Ray Latif: Cardboard packages are pretty small. They're all squares and they come in these really striking colors, like the cashew lime crisp is in this forest green color. It actually does have sort of this psychedelic vibe on the front as well.
[00:30:22] Mike Schneider: This is my emotional support packaging. Okay. I'm just going to pet it. You know, the best part, it doesn't poop either. So I don't have to clean up after it.
[00:30:32] Ray Latif: Yeah. It feels like you would see this in a high-end specialty food store. I wonder where they would merchandise it in like a conventional grocery store, even a Whole Foods. I don't know where this would sit on shelf. I think that's probably the question I would have if I were a retail buyer. It feels like an NCAP special right now. Yeah.
[00:30:51] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah. Or they would do really well in gift shops. Like that's like the perfect gift.
[00:30:56] Ray Latif: Yeah, well, Date Better recently awarded a $10,000 business grant and a 12-week mentorship with Brasibyte's co-founder and CMO, Juni Aruca, and her team. The reason they were awarded that grant is because they won Brasibyte's Latino Entrepreneur Accelerator Program, which if you use the acronym, it's LEAP, L-E-A-P. Now I'm going to try these products, not just yet, because I'm still going to wrap up this episode, but great stuff.
[00:31:28] Mike Schneider: They look great. Yeah. Looks great. Speaking of things that look great. These are Nami oat noodles, product of Taiwan. We have listeners everywhere in the world, Ray.
[00:31:39] Ray Latif: Yes, I know.
[00:31:40] Mike Schneider: Yeah, and found Nami on Instagram. And I'm just really excited to try these. We've got two SKUs here. I don't think these are available in the US just yet, but I believe they're trying to get in. This one's Tingly Numbing Chili Oil. And that one is... Soy Scallion Oil. Yeah. 100% vegan, without cholesterol, never deep fried, cook in five to six minutes. Oat noodles, right.
[00:32:10] Ray Latif: Another sort of observation from a person who is not a retail buyer nor a merchandiser, but it feels like a vertical positioning of this product would Date Better than its current iteration of a horizontal, given that you could probably fit more of these on shelves.
[00:32:28] Mike Schneider: Vertically yes, yeah, you could yeah, and the thing is it's almost square, but not quite so yeah I think you're right now But I think what they're trying to do here is to get as much nummy across the top as they can plus they've got their little their noodle guy here, too.
[00:32:44] Ray Latif: Well, to me, the thing that stands out most is the Oat Noodle callout in the lower right-hand corner, which I think differentiates this product from a lot of other similarly in-position products out there.
[00:32:55] Mike Schneider: I would say this is the differentiator. The Oat Noodle. Yeah, so highlight that more, yeah. Everything else here I understand, and then I'm like, oh, Oat Noodle, that's different, and I would make that bigger. I don't think the callout's big enough. It does kind of pop out, but you'd want to just boom, Oat Noodle, wouldn't you?
[00:33:09] Jacqui Brugliera: And I guess my question is like, what's the benefit of the oat noodle? Is it like a whole grain noodle better for you?
[00:33:15] Ray Latif: Oats Date Better just in general. I mean, oats are the clear greatest ingredient of all time. Right, Jackie?
[00:33:20] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean, I thought you knew that. Now I know.
[00:33:23] Ray Latif: Now you know.
[00:33:24] Mike Schneider: Now, in all seriousness, I don't know either. It's not a rice noodle. It's not an egg noodle. It's an oat noodle. It's something different.
[00:33:29] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah. So it might have a different flavor too. Probably.
[00:33:32] Mike Schneider: Probably. We'll have to get to the bottom of this.
[00:33:34] Jacqui Brugliera: Yes.
[00:33:35] Mike Schneider: Darn. I can't wait.
[00:33:37] Ray Latif: How come nobody talked about my choice of clothing today? I'm not wearing a blue shirt.
[00:33:42] Mike Schneider: Yeah, what's up with that?
[00:33:43] Ray Latif: Why are you not wearing your uniform today?
[00:33:44] Jacqui Brugliera: You do have, like, a rotating, like, lineup of hoodies that you occasionally wear.
[00:33:48] Ray Latif: Just, I haven't worn those in the show in a very long time.
[00:33:51] Mike Schneider: Yeah, that's, but it's usually every two months. We've got it timed. Checky, checky, check that one off.
[00:33:57] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, okay. In two months, we'll check back.
[00:34:03] Ray Latif: Alright, let's get to our featured interview for this episode. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Amy Racine is the Beverage Director for J.F. Restaurants, New York-based hospitality group helmed by Michelin-starred chef and restaurateur John Fraser. J.F. Restaurants operates several fine dining destinations in New York, Los Angeles and Tampa, and recently opened an innovative food hall in Downtown Boston. Amy oversees the beverage selection at all JF restaurants' properties, where she leads new cocktail development and curates wine lists as part of an overall focus to present unique and well-paired options for guests. In the following conversation, I spoke with Amy about how current trends in wine and spirits influence beverage strategy, the impact of consumers becoming more educated and informed about higher-quality adult beverages, and why she compares growing demand for no- and low-alcohol drinks to that of vegetarian food. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I'm honored to be sitting down with Amy Racine, who is the Beverage Director for John Fraser Restaurants. Amy, great to see you.
[00:35:15] New York-based: Thank you for having me.
[00:35:17] Ray Latif: You are the Beverage Director for 14 properties across the United States. How does one get a job like yours?
[00:35:24] New York-based: Well, people that are Beverage Director that I've met have come from so many different walks of life. I'm not sure I know how to answer that question. I can tell you that I got here by going the culinary route into, more specifically, the wine route, into trying to grasp any piece of knowledge I could from everybody around me in the spirit world to try and evolve into that. So I think it's probably like, you know, any other field, if you want to be great at something and you try and surround yourself with people that just do it so well. And once you kind of start taking stepping stones into what could be next after one position, maybe someone into wine director, into Beverage Director, you start seeing doors open and just explore as much as you can.
[00:36:15] Ray Latif: I'm a big fan of wine. I've been drinking wine for a long time. It's harder for me, I think, to evaluate wine trends and how they fit into the overall market for beverage alcohol. But you probably have Date Better sense of how they do exist within the broad landscape of options and opportunity for consumers at places like yours.
[00:36:39] New York-based: Yes. I mean, we definitely see trends in certain styles and there's components where sometimes you see like styles of wine or types of wine like soft turn or something in a cocktail as the sweetener and there's unique moments of crossover like that. But what I find interesting right now, and it makes me reflect on previous years and trends, martinis are obviously having a huge moment, everything from espresso to 50-50s, just martinis are everywhere. That's, I would argue, one of the most popular styles of cocktail in New York and the other markets that we're operating in at the moment. At the same time, on the wine side of things, Sancerre is like, guests don't even open the menu, they just order Sancerre. It's kind of the new Pinot Grigio a little bit. So I find a lot of similarities in that style of wine and that cocktail. in clean mineral, just fresh and bright. So I don't exactly know what the formula is, but it seems that wine and cocktail or just beverage kind of go and trends together and don't operate in silos as far as the trend point of view.
[00:37:51] Ray Latif: It's interesting that even in the wintertime, as we are right now and at the start of a new year, that people are looking for more light and refreshing drinks. Why is that? I know that's, that's kind of a big question, but do you have a sense of why people are gravitating in that direction or moving in that direction?
[00:38:08] New York-based: Well, I think, you know, a martini would, it's pretty high proof depending on what style you're getting. So it's, you're cold and you just want a drink and maybe you don't want to feel heavy and something that has like a lot of syrup so you don't want to go like the old-fashioned route or something that's heavy from flavor point of view. So I think starting with martinis or starting with a glass of Sancerre is appealing because it's almost like the appetizer of the meal. You can build up from there, but I have just found that many people don't necessarily switch as they go through the meal or as they go through the night.
[00:38:44] Ray Latif: Sancerre is a bit more of an elevated style than Pinot Grigio. And, you know, martinis have always been considered a sophisticated drink. Are you finding that consumers are thinking about their options in more sophisticated ways? Are they more educated about what they're drinking or is it more, they just want a higher quality, a higher class of beverage?
[00:39:09] New York-based: That's a great question. I think during the pandemic, everybody became an expert in a good way of beverage. Everybody was at home and using their home bar and learning how to make cocktails and watching videos and on the internet, you could learn how to make a martini, make a Margarita the right way. Everybody was doing wine clubs or wine subscriptions or watching wine professionals on the internet Doing the take-home kits. So I think everybody who wasn't necessarily, you know file or a cocktail expert before their education During the pandemic was on fast-forward compared to what it would have been like without it or just continuing going to restaurants There's a lot of focus on the educational piece during that time. So when we returned to restaurants and things started to stabilize, the requests for certain great varieties or just the general interest of I want to try something new and us asking the question, well, what do you normally drink? The list of great varieties or regions or cocktails that are mentioned is much greater and much more complicated than it was prior, which is great. And it pushes the professionals to hold on tight and make sure that they're tuned in to everything that they should be for coxill education and in the wine world.
[00:40:33] Ray Latif: It would seem then that there's a bit more, I don't know if pressure is the right word, but onus on producers and brands to educate and get consumers aware of their products, given that there is such a wide variety and given that a lot of bars are stocking multiple types of spirits in a particular category, all different kinds of wine. How do you talk to brands and wine producers or spirit brands and wine producers about highlighting what they're doing to the consumer. So that they, when they walk into your restaurants, they have a sense of, Oh yes, I want a X and soda, or I would love this type of Sancerre. Are you finding that customers are a bit more educated about specific brands and specific wine producers, or is it still kind of a, an education and a process for them?
[00:41:27] New York-based: It's both. They are very educated on what used to be the kind of, in my mind, the core line of brands in vodka, for example, Grey Goose, Tito's, Belvedere. Guests knew those, but now guests know Grey Goose, Tito's, Belvedere, and then add on four or five more. And now they want to know what else is out there beyond those. And at the same time, from the brand and the producer point of view, those brands are either coming out with new labels or expansions of their line, or there's kind of smaller niche producers putting product out there. So there's interest from the guest point of view, it seems, on both sides of what's the second label of this brand or what's new from this brand or who's somebody small that's producing vodka in the Hudson Valley that I could try in my martini tonight.
[00:42:26] Ray Latif: Well, I have tried your martinis at a recent visit to the Terrace and Outdoor Gardens, which is the restaurant at the Times Square Edition Hotel. And everything was phenomenal. Everything that I consumed was phenomenal. I didn't drink the entire menu, but I tried to, but no, everything was amazing.
[00:42:44] New York-based: I think we had to do a really big order the next day. We were just out of alcohol when we were there.
[00:42:50] Ray Latif: But one of the things that I tried was the found the proof, which was made with Suntory Roku whiskey, cardamom, grapefruit, and clove. When you are crafting your cocktail menu and individual beverages, what is first and foremost in your mind? Do you think a lot about the spirit first? Do you think about the mixing ingredients? Do you think about specific ingredients like a clove, like a grapefruit? I mean, how do you go about that process?
[00:43:18] New York-based: Yes, is the answer to all of that. I guess there isn't really a step one, we more have a matrix of. In each outlet, we should always have, and it might vary by outlet, but for Times Square, for example, a vodka, a rye, a tequila, sometimes two tequila because it's especially popular in that venue right now. And then from there, we go to flavor profile. We want a light and bright. We want something darker and moodier. We want a spicy cocktail. We want something in the world of a martini. And then we also look at the variation of stemware. Well, we do have a martini program there, but in the other cocktail portion, we don't want them all to be in Collins' classes or all in Rock's classes. It's their variation in the production and therefore the presentation. Then there's just moments of creativity and having fun, like Found the Proof, for example, is something that came from a mocktail that we had on the menu called Where's the Proof? And guests loved it and passed it around and were like, can't believe that this isn't alcoholic. And then we're like, maybe we should make an alcoholic version of this one. So sometimes there's these serendipitous moments of like just creativity and having fun where we need to be able to figure out how, when a cocktail feels right, how to get it onto the menu as well.
[00:44:42] Ray Latif: How much do brands influence your mindset when it comes to crafting cocktails? Can a brand come into your office or have a meeting with you and say, Hey, you know, we think our spirit would be great in your restaurants and bars, but it would also be great on your cocktail menu. And here's the cocktail we think, you know, would sell a lot or do quite well in your locations.
[00:45:09] New York-based: Yeah, sometimes. And I think keeping that conversation that you just had available for myself and my team and for the brands is important because everybody sees trends in a different way and it's important to stay on top of that. But that's also an excellent way for my team and I to be introduced to new products or hear about, you know, I'm an amazing distiller that's, you know, breaking boundaries and experimenting with XYZ. So I think the relationship part of it is what's the most important part there. In terms of brands, I mean, as much as I'd like to say it's not, brands are very important to our guests. If you have a back bar that's full of labels that nobody's ever heard of, you're going to isolate a large part of your guests that are coming in. You want to be able to have some level of comfort of seeing something that's recognizable, And then if you can have a couple of brands next to those, it's like, Oh, what's that? And then you can have a conversation. So I think it's very important to maintain those relationships.
[00:46:16] Ray Latif: Amy, can you talk about the seasonality of your menu in terms of the cocktails and your permanent list of cocktails as well, as it relates to the variety of people that walk into your locations?
[00:46:30] New York-based: As a blanket statement, I'll say we change our cocktails quarterly, so at the top of every season. So we're having conversations two weeks, actually, for spring cocktails to come on board. What are those cocktail menus going to look like going through the matrix that I just mentioned? Just getting ahead of it, because we need to be able to make sure it gets on the menu the right way, that we have everything we need in-house, that the training's done. However, in other locations, like we have North Fork Table and Inn in Long Island, and that's wine country, farm country, there's amazing produce there. We like to change it much more frequently. And it's this amazing, I find so much romance in the place because the bartender can get on their bike and go to the farmer next door and, you know, clip the corn flour for the garnish that day. And it's amazing. So we want to lean into that as much as we can while making sure that our cocktails are consistent all of the time.
[00:47:27] Ray Latif: Well, I got to tell you, I think I mentioned the Cocochino, and I hope that's not just a wintertime cocktail. I think it might be, but it is a fabulous cocktail. It's made with Maker's Mark, Coconut Cartel, Faccia Brutto, Apertivo, Peychaud Bitters, and Borghetti Di Vero Cafe. I hope I'm not butchering that, but I think it's pretty close. And it is, it's a heavier cocktail for sure. It's more of a dessert type of cocktail, but it is phenomenal. And I also see, I mean, looking at your cocktail list right now and you have your dry January N.A. cocktails. Are N.A. cocktails though, I mean, it seems like they don't need to be seasonal anymore. It almost seems like the expectation for guests is that you will have three to four N.A. cocktails on your menu.
[00:48:11] New York-based: Yes. And it kind of reminds me of how vegetarians probably used to feel like to decades ago where, you know, you have your veggie plate and that's it on the menu. And now there's restaurants that are entirely vegetarian and there's always expensive vegetarian options on every menu. And that's, I think, the world of mocktails. It used to be, well, we have sodas or, you know, I can mix some juices together. But now it's a much more serious part of the cocktail menu. I mean, there's cocktail bars that are entirely dry. So there's a demand for it. There's people wanting to come in and have a great, what feels like a cocktail, feel like a participant with their friends or their guests at the table. And they also don't want to be, have like a sugar bomb. They want something that's thoughtful and layered and maybe has herbs and teas and has just as much thought put into it as the cocktails do. So we strive to do that. And we have an amazing bar team that is just as excited and passionate about that. It's just about building flavors. So we're able to keep those options rotating just as much as we do with the cocktails. And it's been successful. People order them. They move.
[00:49:31] Ray Latif: Well, a few years back, there was a small yet exciting brand called Seedlip, which made headway and made inroads into bars by saying, Hey, we have a non-alcoholic spirit that tastes amazing. And that can be a substitute for gin and vodka in your cocktails. And you can create a one-off. and a cocktail for folks that are, for one reason or another, not drinking. And Seedlip has become a much more established brand. It's part of a large strategic portfolio in Diageo. But I wonder, for small brands like a Seedlip, at the time that Seedlip started making those inroads, How do you ingratiate yourself? How do you approach Beverage Director and bartenders as a small brand trying to break into an established and high volume or, you know, a location like yours or locations like yours?
[00:50:25] New York-based: Now, I think just in general, the world of beverages welcomes that fully. At the time, I think it probably took a lot of traction of seeing it on other reputable menus, like I think EMP did a good amount of mocktails before anybody else did.
[00:50:41] Ray Latif: 11 Madison Park. Yep.
[00:50:43] New York-based: Yeah. So if you're in the field and you're setting up on what is everybody else around me doing, you see that. And I think C-Lip came in at the right time. And now, now you see C-Lip quite a bit, but also now we're being approached by many different non-alcoholic brands. And I think the world of them trying to sell is probably very similar to selling any other spirit at the moment, just depending on who do you have behind you and how are you getting backed up. But as far as the reception, we want to taste and see all. And there's huge brands that are making non-alcoholic versions now as well, which I think is also something that feels a little bit more comfortable both to the guest and to the bartender. Like Martini and Rossi makes a delicious non-alcoholic. I know there's some other major brands. Jafar is doing some non-alcoholic stuff. So it's very interesting right now, that's for sure.
[00:51:44] Ray Latif: Do you prefer when you engage with a distribution rep about a particular brand or is it okay for say the brand owner or representative from that brand to come in and introduce their products to you?
[00:51:57] New York-based: It depends what exactly is being presented. If it's a large portfolio of non-alcoholic products, for example. My preference is to read from a distance and say, this sounds interesting on paper and would probably certainly be more interesting in a conversation or, you know, these products are interesting to me, I've never heard of it, to just mentally compartmentalize what makes sense. But I think bartenders and our bar team and even our SOMs, like having the product to taste and available is one of the biggest influencers for them being like, tasted this amazing product. I really think we should bring it in. So the sampling, I think is probably what's the most important part.
[00:52:42] Ray Latif: So is it okay for an entrepreneur listening to bring in a bottle of their product to one of your bars and say, Hey, would you mind trying this? Or is that something you would say, don't do that?
[00:52:53] New York-based: I don't want to speak for the entire beverage world, but I'm always open to coordinating a time in advance to have something dropped off and to taste it. I don't deny tasting anything. I think that's how I learn. And I think the bar team feels the same way. And in return, I'll always be honest of why it may or may not work for us. So yeah, I feel like it's really important to just always stay open, honest, and kind as well when trying to figure out what makes the most sense for our bars and creating those relationships and just progressing the beverage world in general.
[00:53:34] Ray Latif: Well, I thank you for being open, honest, and kind over these last 30 minutes, Amy. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it. Congrats on all the amazing work that you've done for John Fraser Restaurants, and I'm excited to return to one of them soon.
[00:53:50] New York-based: Thank you so much.
[00:53:55] Ray Latif: That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
[00:54:45] Amy Racine: you
