[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hey folks, I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with Jason Burke, the founder and CEO of The New Primal, a fast-growing brand of clean ingredient meat snacks, seasonings, dressings, and condiments. Just a reminder to our listeners, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. When we first profiled Jason Burke in 2018, The New Primal was just over five years into its development and known for its grass-fed, pasture-raised jerky snacks and better-for-you marinades. Since then, the company has expanded into a range of adjacent categories and established itself as a platform brand, emphasizing clean and responsibly sourced ingredients and low-sugar formulations. That evolution caught the attention of Vale-based private equity firm Manitree, which describes itself as committed to improving human health through nutrition, and led The New Primal's $15 million Series B round in 2021. The investment has helped the company expand distribution, launch new innovation, and build out its sales and marketing teams. While The New Primal has a solid foundation on which to build, Jason's vision of disrupting what he views as a broken, toxic food system is faced with contemporary pressures of inflation and rising costs, while simultaneously challenged by expectations for fast growth and profitability. In the following interview, which was recorded during Manitree's second annual Global Health Forum, Jason addressed the strain of building a modern food brand in the context of evolving consumer needs, why he advises founders to embrace sound business practices and a cautious retail strategy, and how high-profile exits have created unrealistic expectations for founders. He also stressed the importance of due diligence on potential investors, shared a moving story about his motivation to provide consumers with better food options. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm honored to be sitting in front of Jason Burke, the founder and CEO of The New Primal. Jason, how are you?
[00:02:49] Jason Burke: Doing great, Ray. How are you?
[00:02:50] Ray Latif: I'm doing great. It's always funny when I do these introductions. We've been sitting here for about the last 15 minutes. We were chatting at the conference today. So it's not like we just sat down and met. We've had a good conversation all day.
[00:03:02] Jason Burke: Yeah, for sure.
[00:03:03] Ray Latif: Yeah. And we're continuing here for Taste Radio. And you and I actually chatted a number of years ago for Taste Radio about your brand, just as a refresher for our audience. You know, what do you guys do and how are you doing it?
[00:03:15] Jason Burke: Yeah, I appreciate that, Ray. I'm 10 years in full time to The New Primal. And when I started this business, both of my parents had been diagnosed with chronic illnesses. Both were directly attributed to diet and lifestyle. And I didn't start a company because of that, but I did change the way I eat. And one of the first things that I did was I started making my own homemade desk snacks. And The New that disappeared from my desk most frequently, and again, this is 12 years ago, call it circa 2010, I was making homemade beef jerky. And I was using grass-fed beef, which was difficult to find in grocery stores back then, if you can believe that. 18 months later, I found myself quitting my job and going full-time into the beef jerky business. I was on a mission to change the landscape of protein snacks. I didn't know anything about consumer-branded products and the typical entrepreneurial story, I think, where someone has an idea and they dive in. you know, then they'd start solving all sorts of problems on the go, right? But really, you know, the mission back then was take the gas station out of the beef jerky, you know, as a category that was full of called feedlot meat, lots of questionable ingredients within that product. And there's really one big player or two that were sort of owning the entire category. And I thought it deserved some disruption. Over the course of the last decade, this has evolved significantly into a brand that serves consumers across multiple categories. That was not what we set out to do. That was a bit of an organic evolution. Kind of be careful what you wish for, I think, in a lot of ways. And so today, you know, what kind of connects all of our products between protein snacks and snacks for kids and condiments and cooking sauces and dry seasonings. Really what connects all of those dots today is really we make low sugar pantry staples and snacks that still taste good. Taste still drives most consumer decision making. I do think there's a big macro movement towards people looking to eat better and to put better things into their products. In the wake of big food movements like Whole30 and Paleo and Keto, movements that we are aligned with and have been aligned with. But in the wake of all of that, I think what's left is like people just want real ingredients and less sugar. And so, you know, really, we've always stood for that. But, you know, after 10 years of doing this and refining our product portfolio and working with retailers across the country, you know, it really it makes the most sense. And what resonates most with our consumers is some may make clean ingredients, low, low sugar pantry snacks and pantry staples and snacks that still taste good and not easy to do.
[00:05:45] Ray Latif: Taste is something that was mentioned, I think, two or three times on stage today, which was interesting because I think if you want people to eat better, the food has to taste great. That's where I feel like you can convince a consumer to eat better. That's where I feel like you can make the biggest impact. Get them to try it. and understand that healthy food, better-for-you food, tastes better than what you had been eating, and it'll make you feel better during the day and in the long run. So what's been your strategy for really convincing consumers that not only are you a better-for-you product, but that you taste better in so many ways?
[00:06:23] Jason Burke: Yeah, look, it's not something that is intrinsic to me per se. It's not something that I think that people will ever fully, fully solve. It's something that we learn and pivot and adjust. Listening to consumers, I think, is really important in that. But to convince them that you taste better, it's two-part. I think the messaging that you put out, particularly if you're in brick-and-mortar retail stores like we are, the messaging on your packaging has to be very clear, your packaging needs to really stand out and it needs to very clearly and simply explain why you're better and why your product is worth what you're charging for it. I think that is probably the messaging on the front of pack is probably the most important thing. And I do not claim to have always gotten that right. I think we have finally figured out what resonates after a long time with consumers. So I think that your packaging has to really tell your message. You have to have collaboration from the retail partner to give you enough shelf space and shelf positioning to be able to speak to your consumer. And then I think any time you get user-generated content in any way, testimonials, any kind of reviews, those have to just be reinforced and shared because people are hesitant to try something new, particularly pay a premium for something that they've never tried. to the extent that, you know, pre-COVID, to the extent that you could sample products and put them in actual people's, you know, put them in mouths, if you will. That was a great strategy for kind of convincing consumers that, hey, here's something that doesn't include all the garbage that maybe some of the more legacy items do. And as an alternative to that, you want to try it. Letting people try it before they buy it is always the, you know, kind of the best strategy. COVID kind of threw a little bit of a wrinkle into what you would call a more robust field marketing or demo strategy. I think that will come back around, but it's the authentic communication with your core consumer base. And then you have to allow them to help spread that message to other consumers. And so there's as a small brand, there's not enough marketing budget, there's not enough there aren't enough slotting fees that I can pay with enough retail distribution and get the messaging perfectly on the pack to just do that by itself. You still have to have those early adopters who are going to carry that flag up the hill with you and for you to kind of get that flywheel moving.
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[00:09:21] Ray Latif: You mentioned retailers, you mentioned slotting fees, and that was something you mentioned in a question to one of the panels today, and I thought it was really poignant and important for you to ask that question. Again, going back to this issue of accessibility, you have to incentivize small businesses and food companies to do better. And when you are paying a quarter of a million dollars in slotting fees, that incentive is more difficult because you could be using that money for a lot of different things, for demos, for social strategies, for discounts, for things like that. And as you mentioned, your retail partners are so critical as you scale and as you grow. Yeah.
[00:10:04] Jason Burke: And this is such a multifaceted challenge to solve. I don't know if there's one particular way. A couple of things that come to mind and one cautionary tale that comes to mind, I think, there's pressure, whether it be their own pressure or some outside force. There's pressure on emerging brands, I think, to grow their retail distribution aggressively. You know, people like this idea of speed.
[00:10:30] Ray Latif: More nowadays than in the past.
[00:10:32] Jason Burke: Perhaps. Yeah, perhaps ever. And, you know, look, as a, you know, as someone who I think is built like an entrepreneur, I can resonate with that. And we went really wide, really fast. And what I would say is, is that that's a very slippery slope. without significant backing to support the brand and all the key retailers appropriately. It's a much better strategy to grow slower and more methodically and test and trial before you just burn a bunch of cash in the street. If you were to say, Jason, start over today and start a brand new brand today, how would you approach this? If you were to do that, I would probably go one retailer at a time. prove out success, create that relationship, get good velocities, and really speak to the consumers that they serve first, make sure that that retail account is nicely humming along, and then move to The New one. The challenge is we go to these big trade shows, we go to We want to get in front of all the big retailers at once and we need distribution at Kroger and Safeway and Publix and all these, right? We need it tomorrow because that's what's going to attract investors and all these, right? We have all this stuff. But I think just building a really sound business sometimes gets lost in the mix of that. And then you have these concepts like, oh, everyone should focus on profitability, which suddenly becomes this like in vogue thing. But you know, it comes from a number of things. So the cautionary tale would be slow down a little bit. I think we probably all could use that advice. And I think even today when there's maybe some outsized pressure to speed up, I think that's, I don't know that sound guidance. So that's, I wanna preface anything else that I say with that. Now, with that said, there is a model in this business where retailers charge slotting fees as a cost of entry into their stores. It's been a revenue source for these retailers for many, many, many years. Asking them to suddenly remove it in some way is not good for their shareholders and not good for their financial reports. And so I don't know that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is the right thing here. But I do think that we're in the middle of a health crisis. crisis and we took COVID-19 very seriously. Most people did and sort of, you know, this acute issue was right in front of us and everybody sort of band together and we sheltered at home and we stopped going out and about and we stopped traveling and we did all these things to sort of like, you know, flatten the curve, remove the needle in some way. But we've had this like slow burning health crisis occurring for the last 50 years. And we're hitting a pretty big apex at this point where I think that everybody in the industry has some kind of obligation to join together and figure out how to solve it. And one of those things is we've got to put better food in front of more people.
[00:13:08] Ray Latif: And remove bad food from stores as well.
[00:13:11] Jason Burke: I think so. I think that there's some really nasty stuff in the food that we eat, particularly in the United States, some really nasty stuff that we allow in the food that we eat. And look, I understand there's a whole access conversation that needs to be had. But why do better for you food products cost significantly more on shelf? Well, one of the reasons is the ingredients are more expensive. So, you know, from a policy perspective, right, there's food, there's farm subsidies and things that we don't have the time to get into. At the retail level, as an emerging brand, I've been doing this for 10 years in the trenches, right? At the retail level, it's no different for me to enter into a new brick and mortar retailer than it is for some big legacy CPG brand to enter into that same relationship. And so, you know, if the incentive is only how much money can I extract from a brand in advertising dollars and scan back promotions and slotting fees, you're going to get that from the big legacy brands who haven't necessarily served the consumer for the last four or five decades. Right? At least the consumer who, not in any way to serve them in a healthy way. And so there has to be a meeting of the minds, in my opinion, between retailers and brands and distributors to come together and say, we've got a big problem to solve. You know, we're not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We're not going to just suddenly discontinue all of these products that have been on the shelves for so long, but we've got to find a way to make space and give consumer options. And we've got to find a way that makes that a little more affordable. Because if, for example, if I don't have to spend $50,000 on slotting fees to enter your store as a better for you product, I might be able to put that $50,000 to use to promote the product at a lower price to increase access to more consumers. I might be able to take that line item out of my P&L and actually lower the retail price so I don't have to account for all of those exorbitant fees so I can create more access for consumers who might not be able to access it because I have to build into my P&L. hundreds of thousands of dollars a year of quote-unquote slotting fees. I'm not asking for a handout as an emerging brand, but I do think that it's time to take a real hard look at these things. A lot of people are afraid to speak out on that and a lot of people are really afraid to rock the boat, but someone has to.
[00:15:27] Ray Latif: You know, where else you could save some time and money is going out and trying to find capital for your brand. Imagine if you just paid half of all the slotting fees that you've paid over the past 10 years. You know, consider how much less you would have had to raise.
[00:15:42] Jason Burke: It's incredible, right? So the system itself, right? Systemically, it's set up where if you have a better for you, if you have something that's truly beneficial to sort of society at large, and this is a product that's an alternative to something on the shelf today, it's going to benefit somebody, you know, their health in some way. you're forced to raise outside capital. I mean, unless you're just independently wealthy and can self fund that. I mean, most people don't have, you know, a few million bucks sitting around just to get into the key retail accounts that they need to be into just to actually for that product to make impact. Right. So you have to. So we're in sort of a right. And you wouldn't have to go raise that outside capital or you could raise less. And again, I think you could create more access, but right now the system is set up to, you know, if you want to offer something really, really great to consumers, your cost of entry is extremely high. Your cost to support that brand is extremely high. I think the incentives are misaligned. I think we have a health crisis and we've got to figure out a way. Again, I don't purport to have the exact answer, but what the current system I think is quite broken. I think we should find a way to all get in the room together and find a solution.
[00:16:52] Ray Latif: Well, it's helpful when you have an investor that's aligned on that vision of let's try to solve this health crisis via better for you products. Manitree has been pretty outspoken about let's try to find synergies and alignment between all of our brands within the portfolio and find out ways that we can sort of sell everything together. I think that's a great opportunity to have as a small business. It's a great opportunity to have as a brand. However, not every brand can be funded by ManaTree. That's right.
[00:17:21] Jason Burke: Yeah. Well, and raising money is really hard. And any founders or entrepreneurs that are listening to this today, they can all speak. This is a really, it's really hard. And you take a lot of no's before you get to a yes. And it's a very, very few outliers that, you know, have multiple term sheets when they go out to raise money, right? There are very few outliers that get that. And so, yeah, I mean, we count ourselves very fortunate to have met the Manitree team when we did and to partner with them. And part of the reason for that partnership was because their mission was aligned, right? They want to improve human health through nutrition. They're not just financial engineers working spreadsheets, trying to figure out ways to, you know, sort of grow the brain as fast as we can to some outsized exit, right? Like it's the first order of business is to improve human health. And I think everything else sort of comes after.
[00:18:08] Ray Latif: Yeah. And that said, and I bring this up because I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs over the past three, four months, and they're describing. an immense amount of pressure to grow quickly, much more quickly than they had in the past few years. They're under immense pressure to become profitable and have a path to profitability that's in a very short timeframe. And it just seems like the light switch has just been flipped on. And now it's like, well, I didn't realize what I was getting into with this particular investor, with this particular partner. And it's scaring the heck out of people.
[00:18:47] Jason Burke: It's a very important topic that I think people should be talking about today. First and foremost, sound business fundamentals should always be at the forefront. I don't know if that, like, became a thing that people weren't doing, but sound business fundamentals should always be sort of first. In our space, in this consumer packaged goods space, and also, I also believe every market is kind of cyclical in some ways, but in this space, we saw a really good run, maybe a decade long run of extremely frothy exit multiples, right? Here's how the story goes. Entrepreneur A has a great idea. Starts to get some market traction. Raises some friends and family money. Gets some more market traction. Raises some small venture capital money. Gets some more market traction. If they're lucky they don't raise any more money, but more than likely they go now raise a private equity kind of series A kind of round. And then suddenly, and, and, you know, call it between the five and 10 year mark, there's some silly exit multiple that some strategic consumer brand pays. And all that does is create a frenzy and everybody else says, Oh, I got to be The New one.
[00:19:57] Ray Latif: I can think of two brands in two different categories that you play in. One of those brands actually shares a name with you. where there was an insane exit, and so where did that come from and why?
[00:20:08] Jason Burke: Yeah, and I could really speak to that one a lot, and we won't do that today, but we could really speak to that one. But that's happened, right? And so that creates this environment that sets certain expectations. What has happened in the past couple of years, at least in my view, is, you know, and I don't know if it was kind of started happening just before COVID or if it was just highlighted with COVID, but the goalposts for those frothy exits, the revenue goalposts of where the brand needed to be in terms of its just cycle of business has grown significantly. I mean, some of these brands were 20, 30, 40 million dollars in revenue and getting four, five X revenue multiples on exits. And so the story was how fast can you race to 40 or 50 million bucks and to go try to get a three or four X on that. Right. That was kind of like this is what a lot of these young entrepreneurs in the space were hearing. Forget like the validity of all this is what they're hearing. And so this is what everybody's chasing. And candidly, that's rare. Number one, it always has been rare. And number two, the threshold for those types of exits, the revenue has to be much higher. So speed, hurry up, is probably some pressure because now it's like, well, geez, gosh, man, you're 25 million bucks. How long is it going to take to get to 100? Because now you're not going to see the exit multiple that we want to see until you're at 100. But I'll say this, I've never had a conversation with an investor ever in my entire decade that didn't have some element of what is the timeline and path to profitability. That is not a new conversation. It might be a little overhyped today. There might be some extra pressure to do it faster today, but I have always heard what's the path. Now, my last little caveat to all of this is You're not gonna cut costs as a brand. You're not gonna cut your way to profitability in the emerging CPG space. We are not General Mills. We are not Kraft Foods. We don't have 17 layers of costs. We're not gonna do that. We have to grow a brand. Amazon took what, 15 years or more to sort of show profitability on there, but you have to grow market share, household penetration, brand awareness. And the only way to do that is to reinvest any inkling of profit margin that you might see, right, in those early years. So I also think that, like, the idea that the system is set up for brands that are, you know, call it sub $25 million in the emerging space, that they're going to somehow turn a profit in six months, I think that that is wishful thinking at best. Personally, I just don't think the system is set up for it. I think as we talked about the slotting fees and the cost to promote and just to grow brand awareness, you're just not going to do it. So all brands should have sound fundamental business practices. we should all be thinking in terms of what is our path and timeline to profitability. We all need to know that and we need to do the exercise to do that. And that's been a part of every conversation that I've ever had. I think that investors need to ensure that they understand that, you know, the system was built for race to 40 or 50 million bucks and get the quick exit. And suddenly today, that doesn't really exist. And so, you know, if a brand call itself 30 million bucks in revenue is being asked to somehow turn profitable as quickly as possible, it won't happen on a dime. Like you just don't do that immediately. And so I do think there's probably probably some outsized press, some unnecessary pressure being put on some of these, you know, emerging brands that, um, that's probably, you know, the conversation is probably better spent around how do we, how do we grow and reach more people and do more good in the world. And I think the,
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[00:24:44] Ray Latif: I think people that are listening to this, Jason, will say, wow, Jason has a really sophisticated understanding of his own brand, of the industry he plays in, and a realistic outlook on what he needs to do to get to where The New pineapple needs to be, you know, five years from now. And that's really important because your investors want to have the confidence in you being able to get there. And oftentimes, Investors get impatient and they say, look, we need somebody else to come in here and do this. We need an experienced operator to help us get to that $100 million mark. Is it something where you have to guard against that? Or is it something where you are, and again, I'm not saying this about any of your investors, but I'm saying, I have to think there has been a time where somebody suggested, Jason, why don't you step aside and let an experienced operator come in here? And maybe not.
[00:25:35] Jason Burke: I think that that is a very common story in this industry. I think it's common story probably across any industry really where the you know because a lot of founders have a great idea and they're just not equipped to kind of run a business. Right. There are all sorts of managerial skills and things that you have to accumulate along the way or you have to have already had. in order to continue to scale it up. I think there are times where it probably does make sense for a brand to bring in someone that has much more operational experience that can maybe help scale it. Maybe there's someone that just understands the industry. in and out a little better, and so maybe that makes sense sometimes. I think it's John McKenna. He very publicly says this. One of the co-founders of Whole Foods. Yeah, John McKenna, co-founder of Whole Foods, very publicly, when he was raising money, he wanted to go and do a public offering as quickly as possible. He didn't want to raise another round of, I think there were 12 stores. And he said, I don't want to raise another round of venture capital. Because he said something like venture capitalists are like hitchhikers. And he's like, you know, they're along for the ride as long as it's going well. But if the car starts to sputter, they're going to kick you out the door and get someone else to drive or something, something along those lines. I'm probably misquoting him, but it's something like that. And that's not a huge knock on venture capitalists. But you know, money is not always patient. That's a cautionary, another cautionary tale where, you know, I think young entrepreneurs who are out raising capital need to ensure that any investors that they're going to partner with one, they need to ensure they understand voting rights and their rights within the organization. I think they also need to understand. how patient those people are willing to be and what the timelines are for the return on that investment. A lot of bright-eyed entrepreneurs want to raise a little bit of money. They raise it for the first person who writes them that check. They get excited, and six months later, the romance is over. So I do think that doing your own diligence as an entrepreneur against the person who might be writing you a check is equally as important and any like younger brands that I speak to whenever they ask for advice on this topic, I always say, look, you have to interview the investor as much as they interview you because I've been in lots of those conversations and it feels like, you know, it's that shark tank conversation where you're just getting peppered with questions and you kind of feel defensive and you're kind of on the fence. And I'm like, listen, you have every right to interview them and ask them the same questions. And I think you can really probably get to the bottom of a lot of those issues early, and maybe you pass on a check, and maybe it's a little harder, and maybe it takes a little longer. But yeah, I've heard so many of those stories where entrepreneurs stepped aside unwillingly. That's unfortunate to me. I do think there are also stories where the entrepreneurs say, hey, look, I've grown into this. I don't have any clue how to get it over The New hump. Bring in an operator, I'll move into a different role. and they can help do that. So, you know, knowing your skill set, what you're good at and where you're willing to take it and be willing to allow the brand to be bigger than you is important. But also, I think if you're not ready or willing at that stage and it's your baby, like you need to make sure that you've got the guardrails in place and you've interviewed those investors and make sure that you guys are in full alignment with what you're doing, how you're going to pivot, how you're going to solve problems when they do eventually and ultimately arise.
[00:28:45] Ray Latif: And I think this sort of comes full circle to the beginning of our conversation in that we're all looking to make better food. We're all looking to feed people better food. But at the end of the day, this is a business and you do have to prove your ability to scale that business to everyone really. And it's a difficult job because as you've mentioned a number of times in our conversation, this is a very challenging industry. So, you know, at this point in your career, you know, knowing what you know and being as deep in as you are, what motivates you to keep going? Because you've been doing this for a decade. I'm sure, you know, sometimes you wake up in the middle of the night, you're like, you know, I could be learning how to fly a plane or doing something else that might be kind of fun. Who knows what, who knows what it is. But, you know, what motivates you? What keeps you going? And what do you keep coming back to as that sort of North Star?
[00:29:38] Jason Burke: I appreciate the question. And it's interesting at times I've had to really evaluate inside, but it's real easy for me now. So my mom passed away in 2018. And I took her to lots of radiation and chemotherapy treatments, and I sat in those waiting rooms. And I sort of, you know, a couple of big takeaways from those waiting rooms were there's a level of humanity that kind of crosses socioeconomic status, race, color, culture, that it kind of oozes in the room, which I found quite, I don't know if it was cathartic or what, but it was pretty remarkable. But there's also, I saw human suffering that's probably quite a bit of could be impacted if we could make some changes. That sits with me. That waiting room, those chemotherapy treatments, that sits with me. My mom was a great cook. It wasn't always the healthiest meals, but she was a great cook. Everyone came over to eat. I gave the eulogy at her funeral, and there were about 300 people there. I scheduled the funeral on a Tuesday at 1 o'clock, kind of purposefully, because I didn't know if we had the space at the venue to house the amount of people that would come. My mom was sort of like an impactor. She impacted people in this way. As I was giving the eulogy, I asked anyone that she'd ever cooked a meal for to stand, and 300 people stood up. And I don't know that my knees have ever shook more. I don't know that I was ever speechless more. It took me a few minutes to compose myself. And when I looked across that room at 300 people standing that she had made a meal for, I thought, that's impact. Those are all people's lives that have been touched. And so I thought, if I could even a little bit. And it's just, it was unique that I found myself in the food industry because I never cooked or anything like that. If I could even a little bit impact people the way she did, but also like help them nourish themselves. If I could inspire people to return to the table and eat a meal together and do it in a way that's not going to poison you. If I could even a little bit do that, this is worth it. And so, man, I come back to the suffering in those waiting rooms and I come back to the impact of my mom and the people that she reached. And that's all I need.
[00:32:05] Ray Latif: Jason, God bless your mom. She sounds like she was an amazing person and a great parent. Thank you so much for sharing that story with us. I don't know if I've been as moved by a story or talking to someone on the podcast as much as I just have now. So thank you very much for sharing. I appreciate that. And thanks so much for taking the time to be with me today. I can't wait for our audience to listen to this.
[00:32:27] Jason Burke: Invite me back anytime.
[00:32:29] Ray Latif: Thank you. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks to our guest, Jason Burke. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
