Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio right now. I am supremely honored to be sitting down with the one and only Eugene Kang, the founder and CEO of Archer. Eugene, it's great to see you again. Thanks, Ray. Thanks for having me. Yeah. We're here in Marina del Rey at Noosh Live LA 2025. And the last time you and I sat down like this was two years ago, but for very different reasons, you were a judge.
Four, our NA pitch slam in 2023. Yeah. Actually, one of the winners actually came up to me during lunch and we were like, it's been a while now, but you remember? I was like, of course. I remember like, how's you, how are you guys doing? And yeah, she shared with me that her and Jared, I think her husband or boyfriend, I think husband, right?
Yeah. They're launching their product in Costco now. Yeah. Ada. Ada. And I was like. Amazing. That's that's incredible to hear. And so, yeah. Yeah. Wonderful people. Brianna and Jared, the founders of Cota, which is a coconut spread, first of its kind. And I think that probably had a lot to do with decision, because you gotta be different.
You can't just be a me too product, you know that. Yeah. Yeah. Archer formerly known as Country Archer, the artist formerly knows Country Archer. Yeah. Yeah. When did you guys decide you needed to keep it simple? Like instead of going from, you know. The Facebook to just Facebook you like, it's kind of similar.
You guys went from Country Archer just to Archer? Yeah. Yeah. We dropped it this year with the launch of our rebrand, but it's been a journey, you know, that was kind of intentional and you know, everything that we built leading up to that was. More or less going that direction no matter what, because you, you think back to like the first refresh that we did on the brand in 2020, you notice this kind of movement towards Archer being really big on the front of Pack Country, kind of shrinking down.
And so that was like the first phase of like what eventually would be this move to hopefully one day drop country. We weren't entirely sure, but as we did research with the consumer and started talking to the consumer, we realized like most people actually just call us Archer anyway. Mm-hmm. It was just a natural thing for us to say, okay, let's just drop country.
It's also kind of lengthy. Archer just feels cleaner. It's cleaner, it's easier. Remember like Facebook, it's like, right, and you know, the goal for us is to be a distinctive meat snack brand. And so we figured Archer just makes it easier. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I always like. Simpler and country Archer it, it gives it sort of a homey, classic Americana feel to it.
But I think Archer gives you a lot more leeway to, and, and I guess room to grow into other spaces, other channels be interesting and appealing to other people as well. So, yeah, and I also feel like it's. More modern. Mm-hmm. And you know, that's kind of where the brand has been heading and frankly, where the category and the segment's heading.
So, uh, it just made a lot of sense. Before we hopped in the mics. I talked about how this is not the first time you've been on Taste Radio. This is the first time you and I have sat down for an interview. But the first time you joined us for an interview for Taste Radio was actually seven years ago. And it was at Expo East, the former Expo East.
There's no Expo east anymore, Baltimore. Yes. In Baltimore. Yeah. It wasn't even the Philly version. That's right. You sat down with my colleague and taste radio cohost Mike Schneider. Yep. And you mentioned that to this day, there are people that talk to you about that episode and what I, I'm curious about what people recall or bring up about the conversation.
Yeah, yeah. So the episode talked about, you know, how we kind of broke into the scene. 'cause I think in 2018, at the time, everyone was still talking about jerky and how crowded of a space jerky was. Yeah. And I told Mike, you know, how we broke through was through real smart innovation. And, you know, our partnership at the time with Ho Fong Sriracha, which is the famous rooster bottle, soy sauce, or sorry, hot sauce, was our way into getting, you know, into the doors of, of a lot of large national retailers.
And so that story has been kind of resonating for a lot of folks. And it's funny, like when I was telling you before we got on the mic, you know, even to this day when I interview anyone. That's accepting any, uh, you know, role in the company. You know, I try to chalk up the last 15 to 20 minutes in interview to ask them, Hey, ask me any questions mm-hmm.
About the role, the business, et cetera. And they always joke about, Hey, I heard that interview on Taste Radio about the sriracha story. That's really cool. Walk me through that. And so, yeah, it's a, it's one of my like proudest moments. Not the taste radio itself, but the, the sriracha stories. Well, I know the taste radio should be your proudest story.
Yeah, it does for sure. It's telling the sriracha story on Taste radio. On Taste radio. Yes. You know, we are the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry. Don't, so I'm not surprised that you're, you know, just daily getting people coming up to you and being like, tell us more about your experience than tell you on Taste radio.
You know, I, I. Think about the meat stick market and how much it's changed and evolved and most importantly, grown in recent years. And you know, the old running joke back in the day was like, oh, we're gonna create a better for you slim gym. Yep. And you know, everyone's just like, okay, well why does anyone want that?
Who's going to eat a better for you? Slim Jim? Clearly a lot of people. Yeah. A lot of people Just, you know, on a surface level, where, where is this growth coming from? Who, who's eating all these? Meat sticks. Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that we're really experiencing here is it's, it's, it's entirely new households and it makes sense, right?
If you think about the meat snack category, it, it was always a jerky and stick. You know, there was two segments with the meat snacks. It was jerky and sticks. And when you think of sticks, just kind of logically, just through like the most iconic brand is Slim Gym. Mm-hmm. And when you look at the ingredients of a slim gym, it doesn't, it's not better for you.
Right. And so I think. When we launched Sticks, it was a very logical innovation launch because it's, it's a, it's a direct an, it's a, it's, it's directly adjacent to jerky. And if you think if you're gonna be a meat snack brand, you have to be in sticks, right? So, you know, we started in jerky as we talked about the ho fun sriracha story.
So when we launched Sticks in 2018, you know, we thought it was a logical step to becoming the better for you premium meat snack platform brand. But what we did not anticipate is. The growth of the consumer and. Just the attraction of that. Portability meets protein, meets like satiety. And that exploded in the last three years.
Right. So, and through data we've now found out that's not only a new consumer, but they're coming from other categories like bars, puff snacks, popcorns, dried fruit, et cetera. Right. 'cause of the protein. It's the protein, it's the portability and yeah. And satiety. If you had to pick one of. The three things, satiety, protein, or portability.
I think for me, because I was a jerky eater, it would probably be the portability and the convenience factor. 'cause I don't. I'm gonna sound like a germaphobe 'cause I am one. I don't really like touching. Yeah. Like the jerky. I is, am I? I don't think I'm alone in that. No, you're not. You're not. I, the thing I would say though, it's as much as you want me to pick that one attribute, I honestly think you need all three to experience what we're experiencing around.
And I'll tell you why. A, we all know protein is just. The most sought out nutrient now for consumers, but you can get protein in other snacks. It doesn't have to come in at meat stick. Portability also could come in the form of bars, for example, right? Bars are portable. You can, you can put in your purse or your, your, your wallet or you can carry it in your backpack and you can snack on it for a second there.
I thought, and some folks in our audience, I'm sure thought you meant a meat bar, which there have been those in the past. Yes, there is. And we've, uh, yeah, and I have, I mean, actually, you know, I should have said on the panel that is one of my mistakes is launching a meat bar, but I'll put that aside. Okay.
And then you have the satiety piece because all of a sudden you have this portable protein snack that's, you know, real, real, real protein, real animal protein, and it's your sugar and it tastes good. And it's not like I'm eating a chocolate chip cookie dough bar, right? And so all three just check the perfect box for that consumer and this new consumer.
And that's why we're seeing this explosion. So. Within the last few months, I had an opportunity to sit down with the founder of a rival brand that is also growing quite fast. And just for context, Archer right now is going to do north of $300 million in sales just in 2025, which is amazing. So, you know, between you and some of these other brands, maybe a couple of the other brands in this category, there's a ton of growth that that folks are seeing.
Yeah. But he pointed to female consumers, women. As being a huge growth driver of their business. Yeah, and it was interesting to me because I felt like that brand had a really masculine vibe to it, and I think Country Archer originally to me also felt a little bit more. Of a masculine kind of brand. With the rebrand, it's a little different.
I think your logo, uh, you know, skews sort of gender neutral. You have a color scheme of orange in this navy blue that I think is also, you know, very appealing to a large segment of the population. Do you see yourself as as, as appealing to a wide range of people wide, you know, swath of the population? Is that very intentional or do you really feel like you need to speak to a consistent target consumer?
Yeah, no, we're, we're definitely targeting the broader audience and you know, for us we've always wanted to be, it's intentional on the redesign we wanted to be. We were always a premium positioned brand because of our attributes, uh, better for you brand. But we also wanted to be approachable. You know, there was a lot of premium brands that are sometimes unapproachable by the mass, you know, audience.
And for us, we always wanted to be an approachable. Um, but elevated brand. And so we feel like the rebrand is achieving that. And you know, to your earlier point about, you know, female customers. Yeah, absolutely. We see the same thing. The female shopper is the largest consumer base that's driving the growth, but it's not as if the male consumer's not consuming it.
We actually just think it's more of like, that is now becoming just the. Pantry snack and everyone in the household is consuming it. Right. And look for us, we don't wanna speak to just one specific demographic. You know, that's why our campaign that we launched this year, our first, you know, our first national brand campaign of, you know, stick to Real is kind of predicated on this like, idea around.
And if you haven't seen it, we, I'm sure we could, yeah, yeah. We could drop a link later. But like it's around this unreal moments that we see in our life. F. But then at the end of the day, you stick to what's real and you know you've got this snack that's portable, it's real ingredients, it's real protein, animal-based protein.
And it just checks a lot of the, kind of the, the need states for a lot of consumers. The rule of thumb for CPG brands is you can't be everything to everyone, at least when you start out. Yeah. When do you realize that you can actually become everything to everyone? When you have a product in a segment like ours that's growing at the rate that it is, I think you start to realize, well, well, why couldn't you?
Right. You know, I do think that there is some truth to, when you're starting out CPG, you want to be very targeted and focused specifically when you. Distributed from a channel perspective, right? We all know that a lot of brands start natural or, or et cetera. Once we started seeing the broad adoption across grocery, mass club and natural, it was clear like this is not just a natural oriented brand.
It's, it's a brand that's, and a product that's frankly being enjoyed by a, a mass population. How do you know? When you have permission to go from a channel that you're doing really well in to a channel where you don't really have that data yet because. The typical, or at least the prototypical place where you would see meat snacks and specifically meat sticks was convenience stores.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And now you see them everywhere. Yeah. You know, when you're talking to those retail buyers, is it a data story as much as it is a trend story, how, how do you convince them that this is going to bring incremental value to their stores? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a data story, and it's also a macro story too.
It's beyond just the consumption at the store level, but it's also. Let's just face the facts and look at the data and where consumers are coming from for, from other categories to ours. What are they seeking? They're seeking protein. And so as you kinda lay out this broader consumer story as opposed to just like, Hey, I'm kicking butt over at, you know, X retailer, you should bring it in, you know, Y retailer, right?
It's more like there's a general shift that's happening at the consumer level, and we're trying our best to educate our retail partners on that. Right. And look, it doesn't hurt that where we were doing really well at are, are kind of marquee retailers where a lot of people look to and go, okay, if it's working over there, I, I'm, I don't wanna miss out on the boat.
So it's a holistic data story as opposed to saying, here's some great data that we have. But it doesn't, it may not necessarily apply to every aspect of a retailer's business. I mentioned that you're growing really fast, you know, 300 million plus in, in revenue is just spectacular. So congratulations on that.
And what's even more impressive is that you're outpacing. The category as a whole, given that there are some pretty serious players in this business who are continuing to, you know, press on the gas, I'm curious as to how you're moving faster than they are. Yeah, I mean, look, I think. The category is growing, frankly, you know, us and one other brand, we're one, one of the two brands that are actually driving a lot of the category growth.
So if you removed one of us, it would actually show not the same growth rate that you'd see in the category overall. Mm-hmm. And I'd say, you know, how we're kind of keeping pace or, or sorry, how are we kind of outpacing the category of is look for us, you know, we're. We're incredibly disciplined about how we think about our innovation pipeline and where we go actually after distribution.
And for us, we try not to go too wide. We try to go really deep with our retail partners and when we kind of. Exercise that we see, we see great results, right? For us, like our retail partners that we launched with back in 2018, we're still continuing to like work with them on how do we go deeper with you and how do we continue to like grow in the category?
And you know, what's an example of a retail partner that you had in 2018 that you still have a good partnership with and making it work? Yeah, I mean, whole Foods is a good one. I mean, when I launched with Whole Foods, we got two items in there, two bags of jerky. Right. And, and we've expanded that to now, I think we're up to 15 SKUs now.
Wow. Um, I see a lot of archer at Whole Foods. Yeah. Like way more than I used to. Yeah. Did something happen this year in particular, or maybe it's just the, the new branding? I think maybe it's a new branding, but we, it's really stands out pretty good. Definitely distribution year over year and, and you have a great team that does a good job at that.
But you know, I think, you know, that's a good example of the partnership of. Where we were in 2018 and it being ironically just a jerky business to where we are today in 2025 with, you know, 15 SKUs and all, all ranging from bags, jerky to single serve, to family size offerings, to multi-pack sticks, to individual sticks, right?
So, you know, we're really trying to continue to like master our own category. And we're constantly thinking about like what are the need states for the consumer? And, and we've learned like, look like the consumer that consumes jerky is different than the, uh, consumer that consumes sticks. And so we're just constantly just trying to understand that need state and try to educate our partners.
By the way, you just reminded me I need to go to Whole Foods. 'cause your multi-pack minis are on sale. They're on promotion right now. Are they really? Yeah. Eugene, of course they're on, you should know this. I know you're like arms length from No, not but, but no, in all seriousness, I think, I mean, I love when I see it on promotion.
Yeah. 'cause you know, meats, sticks are not inexpensive. I mean, they're a premium product and I feel like in this day and age, everyone's always looking at prices no matter if you're, you know. Live in an affluent area if you, if you're part of an affluent family or or otherwise. And I think it's really important, incumbent upon food brands to make their products as accessible and as affordable as possible.
And you can do that a lot more easily, I think if you have your own manufacturing facilities, right? You've operated. Vertically for a long time. When did you think about the importance of doing so and, and how have you scaled that vertical integration over the years? Yeah, yeah. When I bought the business, when I started the business in 2011, it came with a factory.
Now it was a small factory. It was 2000 square feet. I, I call it a glorified commercial kitchen. I mean. I stumbled on the vertical integration because, you know, my family background is, you know, they're immigrants from South Korea. They own gas stations, right. And I was always taught as a young kid from my father, like, own the real estate, own the real estate whenever you do business.
And so it just inherently in my DNAI was, you know, just thought you have to have an asset. You can't just build a brand. Right. So, you know, I stumbled into it, but then as I continue to grow the business, I've learned like a, all the big players in this category, right, the conventional guys are all vertically integrated.
Mm-hmm. B, the co-packing landscape is actually not robust. Right. So there was actually a, an inflection point for our business where we could have been a co-packer and just stick with that business model, but I had such high aspirations for the brand and pushed the brand. So for me it was like. Very obvious.
Okay. Like we stumbled into it, but like we're gonna stick to this vertical integration over time. And like that 2000 square feet went from, you know, it went from 2000 square feet initially to 14,000. And we tacked on another 16,000. And fast forward today, I think we have two facilities, right? One that's in San Bernardino, California, that's over 70,000 square feet that produces all of our jerky products in house, used to produce cold pressed juice, from what I hear.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It was the old evolution fresh, uh, processing facility. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that facility produces all of our jerky products. A little bit of our sticks, and then we just open up our second facility in Vernon, which is about like 15 minutes away from downtown la It's Vernon does, Ohno is like kind of the, you know, industrial capital of the, of the West coast.
If you've ever watched season two of True Detective, there's a, a Vernon type city that's a big part of that season. So Vernon is a city, it's, it sits outside of la mm-hmm. It's, it's its own city. They have their own police, own fire department, et cetera. And there's only like. Like 30 people that actually live in the city, right?
Like it's purely industrial, right? And so you've got massive legacy companies that build their, that they still process. Like GT is facility gt Dave's facility is in Vernon. So we found the old, former, former Farmer John facility that made the famous hot dogs and Bacons and it was vacant. And so we took it, we took that over.
Just open up that facility to produce all of our sticks. You know, when you own your own assets, there's, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, there might be long-term debt. There's the actual cost of owning the equipment and, uh, maintaining that equipment. And so, you know, outlaying the money to operate, own, and operate your, your own manufacturing facilities is not necessarily something that a lot of.
Entrepreneurs can do, but it's proven to be such an important part of your business. Did you realize, I think at the time in 2018, that you would be here? Or did you, I guess, how did you assess the potential for your business such that you lined the company with the ability to, you know, at one point own what you own right now?
Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like kinda like, how did we see. Seven years out and kind of where we are today. Yeah, I, I guess I've asked this question of entrepreneurs before, which is how do you balance, ambition? And I can tell you're an ambitious person, Eugene, with potential. Well, first of all, you have to give credit to a good team.
We've got an incredible operating team, uh, from all the way from operations down to finance, to sales and marketing. And look, what I would say is back in 2018 when we first launched Meat Sticks and we did that interview. We had no idea what sticks was going to become. And so you have to be incredibly disciplined on what you know and what you're good at.
And so when we launched Sticks, we didn't launch it making the products 'cause there would be a whole new set of equipment. So I said at the time, look, we're gonna, we're gonna work with this co-packer and launch it because they make sticks, they do really good job at it. We make jerky. And so it's too early in the game to start investing in equipment.
So you just gotta be disciplined on that front. And when we launch sticks, we stay nimble, but when it quickly. Started ticking off, we had to start laying down the pathway of like, okay, eventually we're gonna have to vertically integrate this product. Mm-hmm. Now, along the way, things change and evolve, like the co-packing network just got consolidated and consolidated and all of a sudden like became this big behemoth.
And frankly, if without them we will not be here where we are. And look along the way, you have an honest conversation with your partners and say, look, as you know, I'm not just another brand that you produce for. I, I do have. Vertical integration capabilities. I do make jerky. And so like eventually one day like that is probably gonna be the pathway for us.
So you, you might not want to need to build more additional capacity for me 'cause I'm starting to start laying down the brick. So it's, it's, as much as I like to say that, you know, it was this mastermind plan from 2018 to now, it was, and it was more like, we always knew that at some point we want to vertically integrate, but timing is always the question mark.
And, and when is the right time. And look, it doesn't hurt when you have, you know, when you're scaling your business and you've got, you know. You're north of a hundred million. All of a sudden you start to see, okay, like we're in a much different financial position, right? Our balance sheet is in a different position.
Now we can actually start entertaining a bigger capital expenditure, like building our own stick facility. Do you see more value in your manufacturing capabilities or in the brand itself? Because earlier you had said, you know, we could have just been a manufacturer of jerky and meats, sticks, and you said, no, I really believed in creating a brand.
But where is there most value in your opinion? Yeah, I, I'd say our biggest value leading up to this year was our operational chops. You know, and I don't think just manufacturing, I think broadly speaking, like I think we have a masterclass team in terms of like logistics and like how do we think about saving money on like everything ranged from packaging to to ingredients, and we're just a really good operating team.
And I would say that we always were strong commercially, right? Like we always thought about like what's the right products, what's the right attributes, what do consumers want? But we never really put a big emphasis on the brand. And I'd say the team that we have today, I. Their goal has been what's the, it's the one, it's the one goal.
It's like, look, you guys now gotta get the brand to get to where it needs to be. Given that we've done all this upfront work around the commercial and operational side of the house. Right. And so I'd say up until this year, I'd say our biggest strength has been our commercial chops and our operational chops Moving forward, I'm incredibly bullish on our marketing and our brand advantage.
Operations. If you have a good operations team, it can make a humongous difference in your brand. But I've never really dialed this down to a specific strength. Right. And you mentioned something just now that I think probably answers my question or my, my query here, which is when you're talking about operations, essentially you're talking about saving money and, and not wasting money and making sure that you can bring costs down where you can.
As often as you can. Is that essentially what you see in terms of the vision for and the, and the reason for being for your operating team? Yeah, I'd say saving money, for sure. Productivity is always there, but I also think just execution too, right? Like, you know, ultimately, you know, the goal is to save money, but.
I mean, even something as like, you know, getting logistics, logistics is completely, you know, understated in the early, early days of building a CPG business. But as you start to scale rapidly, you won't know it, and then you realize your logistics is a nightmare. But having an incredible operating team to start thinking about your, your routes and your truck lanes, and where your three PL warehouses are located.
And thinking about those inner transfer, like those are the little details that like, we just are, they're pretty big details. They're like, they're, they're big in, in, in, in hindsight, but I think in the moment you're just there. When you're busy building your business as an entrepreneur, you're not thinking about those things 'cause you're just constantly just trying to move from point A to point B.
But as you start to scale the business, you start to realize like that point A to point B starts to get really taxing if you don't start like really fine tuning that piece. Right. Do you know everything about. Your operations business as much as you feel like you need to, or, or do you feel comfortable delegating those responsibilities?
You know, I, I hate to say this, but like, honestly, the operational side of the business is one where I still, I'm heavily involved in and to, to a fault, right? Like I'm, I'm still the guy, like making deals on all of our protein procurement purchases for the year. I don't need to be Sorry about that. Well, no, I, I, I say that because like, I, I do think that at some point entrepreneurs have to figure out how to delegate to the team, but.
Like for me, my golden rule is, you know, we talk about it as a team, as a leadership team all the time. It's like, what are the most vital things that could break the business? And like those are the things that I just will never let go entirely control of. Like I just have to cost some money. Like to me, protein is a big percentage of our cost of goods, and so I'm.
I'm always gonna have my eyes on the ball there. So you're still up at night thinking about our protein sources. Where are they coming from? I just was on a vacation with my family and we visited South Korea and their version of cattle there is called Honda, which is like their version of Wagyu and it's so tasty and all.
All I can take about that on our whole family trip was like, how do I tap into the Han market? And my wife was just like. Can you just not do that right now? Like, I just need you to like be here and I'm like, all of I can think about is like this Korean cattle market is so on top. We have to figure out how to get like meat sticks into, into Korea with using the Korean cattle.
So yeah, you're a true entrepreneur. I think about beef all the time. That's, that's a quote. We should, you should mic drop right there, Eugene. I think about beef all the time. I think it's important to be. On as, as often as you can be as an entrepreneur, entrepreneur. But yeah, there are times you need, you need to unplug again.
I, I get the sense that you're a really ambitious and competitive person. Am I right in thinking that is, yeah. I'm pretty competitive. I'm pretty ambitious too, but yeah. Is it important to be competitive, like as an entrepreneur? I mean, you have to be, I mean, like. Uh, e every category is in increasingly getting more competitive and the brands that are coming into the space every day, whether it's my category and anyone else, like, it's, it's definitely competitive Now.
I don't think it, it's a, it needs to be a zero sum game, and I actually think that is a. Some of the, the flaws in the, in the ecosystem today where there's certain, certain entrepreneurs that are just wanting to make it a zero sum game and it has to just be like one player. I don't think that's right. But, you know, how do you stay competitive but realize that it's, I I almost like it to, like there are athletes that are competing and when you're on the floor and you're competing, you're trying to win the game.
But off the court, you could be friends and you could try to trade notes. Right. But I do think when you're competing in the space, you're, you're trying to be as competitive as possible and, and win for sure. But do I think it's a zero sum game? No, but I also don't know if you need 10 brands, you know, hawking out the same product either.
As I mentioned, I think differentiation is so critical in our industry. When we talked about Cota, like who are they competing against? Well, when it comes to coconut spreads, not many, but they're still competing against fruit spreads and peanut butter and so on and so forth. And a lot of times differentiation comes from innovation.
I really enjoyed the beef taco products that you made. Oh, they're so great. They're so good. You launched those pretty recently, right? Last year. Yeah, last year, yeah. When you think about innovation, is it a lot of times kind of still a gut feeling? 'cause you know the brand so well, you know, you can consumers so well Or is it really very much again, like a data-driven approach to innovation?
You know, I think it's a little bit of both. And, and here's what I'll, I'll say, and here's why I say that. You know, the data will tell us. Hey, consumers don't want to get too far off the beaten path with, with flavor expansion and we know that, but then we'll launch something like a beef taco, which isn't in the kind of conversation from the data perspective, but it does incredibly well for us.
Right. So like I think there's an intuition that is in play for sure. Data helps us when it comes to like thinking through like pack formats and, you know, multi-packs, et cetera. Like, you know, getting smarter on pack innovation. And I think we try to use our gut where we can on, you know, uh. Does that kind of flavor expansion make sense or not?
Because it's so hard with the data. Like if you're trying to create a new flavor, data's not gonna really show you whether or not that's gonna be successful. You could do surveys, but no one really knows how much of your innovation strategy plays into your pricing strategy. Sounds like it does based on what you're talking about in terms of Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'd say it plays a big role, I think, you know, because most of our renovation is around, you know. Pack and pack formats. Price back architecture is, is very vital for us. So we try to be very conscious about, you know, channel conflicts and our price back architecture in general, do you feel like if you could, you would only sell.
Single serve format products because I feel like the, the margins are highest probably for the single serve or a single format. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, if you could, but I mean, like, you know, let's take our, you know, our mini sticks. It's, you know, obviously it's, it's the cow that gives us milk, right? In our business today, that individual mini stick is in various different count sizes, depending on where you shop at.
For me, it's like we're still producing that individual mini stick. Right in masses and how it shows up, whether it's a 28 count bag or a 16 count bag or eight count bag for us, like that end is not really gonna be the biggest needle. Like that doesn't really hurt our operation. It's at the end. We're still producing that mini stick day in and day out, and so we're trying to get smarter about when we do pack innovation.
And price by architecture, like how does it tie into our operational side of the business? I almost feel like the multi-packs of the mini sticks are a really good introduction to the next generation of meat stick consumers and meat snack consumers to begin with. I, I see a lot of younger kids eating them, and then as they get older, they're gonna be eating the larger sticks and the bags of jerky and so on and so forth.
And I think I, I don't know if that was intentional or how much of that is intentional? The, the, the mini sick as a trial. To the brand, but it feels like it's a natural extension of what you're doing. It is. I mean, look, I, my parents are immigrants from South Korea, so again, I grew up in a retail environment.
They owned gas stations and liquor stores, and the most iconic, memorable snack for me as a kid was actually not a, a Doritos or Cheetos or anything like that. It was actually that small 25 cents slim gym. Yeah, that was on the counter table. And I would eat that like crazy as a kid. And I remember thinking to myself like, you're still alive.
Which is good. Yeah. Well, yeah. But it was memorable for me. Right. And even to this day, we joke about it as, as a team of like that, that item is still a big item for Slim Jim. Yeah. And it's actually still growing, believe it or not. And it you. As a consumer through my journey. Like you start to go get the taller sticks as you get older.
Right. And obviously I don't consume that anymore, but for sure it, it played a, it played a role of how we thought about army sticks and the eventual sizing up, et cetera. Yeah. I'm not surprised it's still growing. I think people are looking for affordable, accessible, as I mentioned, protein. Yeah. And you know, as it becomes more expensive to eat and live in America.
You know, you're looking for products like that, I guess, does the current state of the economy, how much of that factors into your long-term strategy? Because hopefully at one point we'll get out of this rut where groceries are just so ridiculously expensive. I talked about this with my colleagues.
Earlier today, or actually yesterday and I was saying every time I go to the grocery store now, and I, and I price shop, I, I look for stuff that's in promotion. Like, you know, when archer's on promotion, I'll buy it. Yeah. But every time I go into the grocery store and I buy like, I dunno, 10 items, I end up paying like a hundred bucks.
Yeah. Look, the inflation is real. And you know, we know, you know, from the data and talking to consumers, you know, everyone's feeling the pain for sure. I mean, their grocery bills have gotten higher and, you know, for, for various reasons. And look, for us, what we're trying to do, and I think we're, we're not doing a good job of it right now, but I think we will next year, is how do we communicate value to the consumer in a.
What is relative to, to, to our brand and what we stand for. So what I mean by that is, look, I think we're gonna be entering in an environment where everything around us is expensive, and I think consumers are gonna have to be really choiceful about what they decide to purchase in their basket and in their pantry.
And if we want to be one of those items that are always gonna be a staple, which we've enjoyed so far, we have to make sure that we scream value. And value doesn't necessarily mean. Showing up in price. It also could mean, Hey, how are we messaging it to the consumer of saying like, look, this is portable, it's protein.
You are getting value because it's, if you compare that to other snacks where you don't get that same portability, individual wrapped protein, et cetera. We, we are, we, we want to make sure that like, even in this inflationary environment. We are still actually valuable, like we're still giving you value, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does. And, and look, I will tell you, like as a brand that's vertical integrated, like we, we are able to be a little bit more nimble in our pricing. But look, I think the whole c PT ecosystem has a, you know, has a role to play here in the upcoming year. About how do we make sure, you know, the consumer is finding value, right?
Because I think, you know, for the longest time, you know, everyone's been talking about better for you and, and health and health and wellness, Worthington brands and premium brands. We're going to an era where I think the consumer is, is gonna have to reevaluate what, what does value mean to them, if that makes sense.
You know? And value means portability, protein, but real, right. And quality. That's right. And I think your tagline of Stick to Real. If people can see, or if you're able to communicate value in the fact that you are a real quality meat stick and meat snack brand goes a long way with that consumer. They're willing to pay a premium even though that premium is sort of affordable.
In the big scheme of this eating, you know, protein. Yeah. If you were buying an ultra processed snack and it's more expensive than it used to be. Y as a consumer, I, I too would be pissed. I'd be like, what? What's going on here? Right. And I do think that reckoning, which we're already seeing in the data, um, is only gonna continue to accelerate.
And I think, again, like the consumer is gonna have a real kind of, you know, moment of truth, I think as they kind of progress into the next year of like, okay, what does value mean for me? Right. And 'cause on an absolute dollar basis, I'm gonna have to make some trade offs. And what are the, what are the needs.
And what are like the nice to haves? Yeah. Are your, uh, you know your folks still around? They are. Yeah. Uh, are, are they, are they happy? Are they proud of what you're doing? Yeah, they're, they're definitely proud. My, my dad and I, he's still my, he's my best friend. We talk every day about, you know, life and, uh, you know, it's always funny for him 'cause he's, I, I think for him, he's a serial entrepreneur and I think he's always joked like, I never wanted you to be an entrepreneur.
'cause it's a stressful, stressful thing to do. What do he want you to be? I don't know, like every good Asian parent, like every Asian kid, like be a doctor or a lawyer or something like that. Some kind of white collar job, but, you know. Here we are. So, yeah, it's cool. I grew up in a family where my dad was an entrepreneur and he owned a, a chain of gourmet food stores.
And I wouldn't say it's ironic that I'm in the business that I'm in right now, but it's, it's, it's funny that I have this opportunity. I never made the leap. I, I, I never, I guess, had the guts in so many ways to, to own my own business like that, but I'm sure. That no matter what your dad says, he's really happy that you're in the business you're in right now because it's a tough business.
And I think more than anything, if you can make it as an entrepreneur in CPG, you can pretty much do anything in life. You could go back to school and become that lawyer or doctor if you want to. Oh man. It's high praise. Like we, we, we were just in the room with a bunch of, uh, founders in the, in the audience and, you know, look, I, I will stress this like it is.
Uh, there is, I mean, like I have not been privileged to work in any other industry, but I would say in CPG there's something so romantic about seeing your product on shelf and seeing consumers pick it up. It is so rewarding, man. I mean, even now I still, like, when I go to stores and I see the product, like I just, it's cool.
Right? And that's what's rewarding. But look through that. There's, behind the scenes, there's a lot of like heartaches and pain. A lot of up and downs. And I got, like I said in the, in the room, I was like, you know, they asked like, what's one of the advices you'd give? And I'd say, look, it's just being patient, you know?
And if you're in the, if you're in the game, if you're gonna be a student in the game, you're in it for the long haul. And you're not here to just make a quick buck. You just gotta play the long game. And like that category manager's not returning your phone call, like, trust me. Like whether through like, like sheer fortune or not.
Like they're gonna eventually return your phone call. Yeah. And you will get a shot. Right. And, and how you capitalize on that is gonna be the, the interesting thing. Right. And that's to each of their own. But I just think you have to be incredibly disciplined and, and patient in this, in this game. Yeah.
Great advice. And you know. It worked out for you and it's worked out for Archer. We're still grinding. Yeah, we're still grinding. Well, look, I'm sure you've had some knocks at your door. Some, some phone calls from bigger companies saying, Hey, you know, anytime you're ready to jump off this train, we'll be there for you.
But I think you're, you're right, you're, you guys are still growing a lot. Yeah. No, I mean, look, you know, for us, like I'm, I'm having so much fun and we have such an amazing team. You know, for me it's like we've got such. Like, what gets me excited outside of seeing our product on shelf is the people we have in our business.
I mean, it's, it's so, it's so, it is so much more fun building a business with the right people around you. Eugene, I can't thank you enough for taking this time. It's been such a great conversation. I know our audience is gonna get a lot out of it. I'm just, uh, it's thrilling. It's really thrilling for me. I, I, I, I sound like a broken record 'cause I talk about this all the time.
Thrilling when I get to meet an entrepreneur earlier on to their, earlier in their business. Right. Like I, I know you started, you, you bought the business in 2011 and, uh, you, you were on Taste Radio seven years later, but like another seven years. You know, you've been doing this 14 years now, and just the growth that you've seen the.
Yeah, the fact that you become a household name, a household brand, I mean, that just doesn't happen. And so when we see things like that, when you see this like young, scrappy brand and now one that's doing $300 million plus in business, it's just, it's so exciting for me. I appreciate, so exciting for us.
Appreciate that. I really appreciate that. Congratulations on everything that you've built at this point. Let's sit down again really soon. Yeah. Thanks man. Thank you. Thanks.
