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[00:00:52] Ray Latif: Hello friends, I'm Ray Latif and you're tuned in to Taste Radio, the leading podcast for entrepreneurs, makers, and innovators in the food and beverage industry. Archer's journey to $300 million in annual sales has been driven by an unwavering focus on operational excellence. In this episode, founder and CEO Eugene Kang shares how disciplined execution, vertical integration, and precisely timed innovation transformed Archer from an upstart jerky brand into one of the fastest growing meat snack companies in the U.S. Eugene unpacks Archer's recent rebrand, how the company positioned itself ahead of the explosive growth of meat sticks, and the importance of building durable partnerships with retailers like Eugene Kang. He also explains why patience and long-term thinking remain critical traits for CPG founders navigating scale. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I am supremely honored to be sitting down with the one and only Eugene Kang, the founder and CEO of Archer. Eugene, it's great to see you again. Thanks, Ray. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're here in Marina del Rey At Nosh Live LA 2025. And the last time you and I sat down like this was two years ago, but for very different reasons. You were a judge for our Nosh Pitch Slam in 2023.
[00:02:22] Eugene Kang: Yeah, actually one of the winners actually came up to me during lunch and they were like, it's been a while now, but do you remember? I was like, of course I remember. Like, how are you guys doing? And she shared with me that her and Jared, I think her husband or boyfriend, I think husband, right? Yeah. They're launching their product in Costco now. Yeah. At Nosh. At Nosh. And I was like, amazing. That's incredible to hear. And so, yeah.
[00:02:42] Ray Latif: Yeah. Wonderful people. Brianna and Jared, the founders of At Nosh, which is a coconut spread. First of its kind. And I think that probably had a lot to do with decision because you got to be different. You can't just be a me too product. You know that. Yeah. Yeah. Archer, formerly known as Country Archer. The artist formerly known as Country Archer. Yeah. Yeah. When did you guys decide you needed to keep it simple? Like instead of going from, you know, the Facebook to just Facebook, you're like, it's kind of similar. You guys went from Country Archer just to Archer.
[00:03:11] Eugene Kang: Yeah. Yeah. We dropped it this year with the launch of our rebrand, but it's been a journey, you know, that was kind of intentional. And, you know, everything that we built leading up to that was more or less going that direction no matter what, because you take back to like their first refresh that we did on the brand in 2020. You notice this kind of movement towards Archer being really big on the front of the pack, Country kind of shrinking down. And so that was like the first phase of like what eventually would be this move to hopefully one day drop Country. We weren't entirely sure, but as we did research with the consumer and started talking to the consumer, we realized like most people actually just call us Archer anyway. So it was just a natural thing for us to say, okay, let's just drop Country. It's also kind of lengthy. Archer just feels cleaner. It's cleaner. It's easier to remember. It's like Facebook. It's like Facebook, right? And, you know, the goal for us is to be a distinctive meat snack brand. And so we figured Archer just makes it easier.
[00:04:05] Ray Latif: Yeah. I mean, I always like simpler. And Country Archer, it gives it sort of a homey, classic Americana feel to it. But I think Archer gives you a lot more leeway to And I guess room to grow into other spaces other channels be interesting and appealing to other people as well Yeah, and I also feel like it's more modern.
[00:04:31] Eugene Kang: Mm-hmm And you know, that's kind of where the brand has been heading and frankly with the category in the segments heading So I just made a lot of sense
[00:04:38] Ray Latif: Before we hopped on the mics, I talked about how this is not the first time you've been on Taste Radio. This is the first time you and I have sat down for an interview. But the first time you joined us for an interview for Taste Radio was actually seven years ago. And it was at Expo East, the former Expo East. There's no Expo East anymore. Baltimore. Yes, in Baltimore.
[00:04:57] Eugene Kang: It wasn't even the Philly version.
[00:04:58] Ray Latif: That's right. You sat down with my colleague and Taste Radio co-host, Mike Schneider. And you mentioned that to this day, There are people that talk to you about that episode. And I'm curious about what people recall or bring up about the conversation.
[00:05:12] Eugene Kang: Yeah. So the episode talked about, you know, how we kind of broke into the scene. Because I think in 2010 at the time, everyone was still talking about jerky and how crowded of a space jerky was. Yeah. And I told Mike, you know, how we broke through was through real smart innovation. And, you know, our partnership at the time with Hoi Fong Sriracha, which is the famous rooster bottle hot sauce, was our way into getting, you know, into the doors of a lot of large national retailers. And so that story has been kind of resonating for a lot of folks. And it's funny, like when I was telling you before we got on the mic, you know, even to this day, when I interview anyone that's accepting any role in the company, I try to chalk up the last 15 or 20 minutes in an interview to ask them. hey, ask me any questions about the role, the business, et cetera. And they always joke about, hey, I heard that interview on Taste Radio about the Sriracha story. That's really cool. Walk me through that. And so, yeah, it's one of my proudest moments. Not the Taste Radio itself, but the Sriracha story. Well, I know. The Taste Radio should be your proudest moment. It is, for sure.
[00:06:15] Ray Latif: Telling the Sriracha story on Taste Radio. On Taste Radio, yes. You know, we are the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry. So I'm not surprised that you're just daily getting people coming up to you and being like, Tell us more about your experience on Taste Radio. You know, I think about the meat stick market and how much it's changed and evolved and most importantly grown in recent years. And, you know, the old running joke back in the day was like, oh, we're going to create a better for you Slim Jim. And, you know, everyone's just like, OK, well, why does anyone want that? Who's going to eat a better for you Slim Jim? Clearly a lot of people, a lot of people. Just, you know, on a surface level, where, where is this growth coming from? Who, who's eating all these meat sticks?
[00:07:02] Eugene Kang: Well, I think one of the things that we're really experiencing here is it's, it's, it's entirely new households. And it makes sense, right? If you think about the meat snack category, it was always a jerky and stick, you know, there was two segments with the meat snacks. It was jerky and sticks. And when you think of sticks, just kind of logically, just through like the most iconic brand is Slim Jim. And when you look at the ingredients of a Slim Jim, it's not better for you, right? And so I think when we launched Stix, it was a very logical innovation launch because it's directly adjacent to jerky. And if you think if you're going to be a meat snack brand, you have to be in Stix, right? So, you know, we started in jerky, as we talked about the Hoi Fong sriracha story. So when we launched Stix in 2018, we thought it was a logical step to becoming the better for you premium meat snack platform brand. But what we did not anticipate is the growth of the consumer and just the attraction of that portability meets protein meets satiety. And that's exploded in the last three years. And through data, we've now found out that's not only a new consumer, but they're coming from other categories, like bars, puff snacks, popcorns, dried fruit, etc. Because of the protein. It's the protein, it's the portability, and satiety.
[00:08:25] Ray Latif: If you had to pick one of the three things, satiety, protein, or portability, I think for me, because I was a jerky eater, it would probably be the portability and the convenience factor. Because I don't, I'm going to sound like a germaphobe because I am one, I don't really like touching the jerky. I don't think I'm alone in that.
[00:08:45] Eugene Kang: No, you're not. The thing I would say though, as much as you want me to pick that one attribute, I honestly think you needed all three to experience what we're experiencing right now. And I'll tell you why. A, we all know protein is just the most sought out nutrient now for consumers, but you can get protein in other snacks. It doesn't have to come in a meat stick. Portability also could come in the form of bars, for example, right? Bars are portable. You can put it in your purse or your wallet or you can carry it in your backpack and you can snack on it.
[00:09:12] Ray Latif: For a second there, I thought, and some folks in our audience, I'm sure, thought you meant a meat bar, which there have been those in the past.
[00:09:17] Eugene Kang: Yes, there is. And we've, uh, yeah. And I have, I mean, actually, you know, I should have said on the panel that is one of my mistakes is launching a meat bar, but I'll put that aside. Okay. And then you have the satiety piece because all of a sudden you have this portable protein snack that's, you know, real protein, real animal protein, and it's zero sugar, and it tastes good, and it's not like I'm eating a chocolate chip cookie dough bar, right? And so all three just check the perfect box for that consumer and this new consumer, and that's why we're seeing this explosion.
[00:09:50] Ray Latif: So within the last few months, I had an opportunity to sit down with the founder of a rival brand that is also growing quite fast. And just for context, Archer right now is going to do north of $300 million in sales in 2025, which is amazing. So, you know, between you and some of these other brands, maybe a couple of the other brands in this category, there's a ton of growth that folks are seeing. But he pointed to female consumers, women, as being a huge growth driver of their business. And it was interesting to me because I felt like that brand had a really masculine vibe to it. And I think Country Archer, originally to me, also felt a little bit more of a masculine kind of brand. With the rebrand, it's a little different. I think your logo, you know, skews sort of gender neutral. You have a color scheme of orange and this navy blue that I think is also, you know, very appealing to a large segment of the population. Do you see yourself as appealing to a wide range of people, wide swath of the population? Is that very intentional or do you really feel like you need to speak to a consistent target consumer?
[00:11:02] Eugene Kang: Yeah, no, we're definitely targeting the broader audience. And, you know, for us, we've always wanted to be, it's intentional on the redesign. We wanted to be, we were always a premium positioned brand because of our attributes, a better for you brand. But we also wanted to be approachable. You know, there's a lot of premium brands that are sometimes unapproachable by the mass. you know, audience. And for us, we always wanted to be an approachable but elevated brand. And so we feel like the rebrand is achieving that. And, you know, to your earlier point about, you know, female consumers, absolutely, we see the same thing. The female shopper is the largest consumer base that's driving the growth, but it's not as if the male consumer is not consuming it. We actually just think it's more of like that is now becoming just the pantry snack and everyone in the household is consuming it, right? And look, for us, we don't want to speak to just one specific demographic. That's why our campaign that we launched this year, our first national brand campaign of Stick to Real, is kind of predicated on this idea around, and if you haven't seen it, I'm sure we could drop a link later, but it's around unreal moments that we see in our life, but then at the end of the day, you stick to what's real, and you've got this snack that's portable, it's real ingredients, it's real protein, animal-based protein, And it just checks a lot of the kind of the need states for a lot of consumers.
[00:12:25] Ray Latif: The rule of thumb for CPG brands is you can't be everything to everyone, at least when you start out.
[00:12:30] Eugene Kang: Yeah.
[00:12:30] Ray Latif: When do you realize that you can actually become everything to everyone?
[00:12:34] Eugene Kang: When you have a product in a segment like ours that's growing at the rate that it is, I think you start to realize, well, why couldn't you, right? You know, I do think that there is some truth to when you're starting out CPG, you want to be very targeted and focused, specifically when you distribute it from a channel perspective, right? We all know that a lot of brands start natural or etc. Once we started seeing the broad adoption across grocery, mass, club, and natural, it was clear, like, this is not just a natural-oriented brand. It's a brand that's, and a product that's, frankly, being enjoyed by a mass population.
[00:13:09] Ray Latif: How do you know when you have permission to go from a channel that you're doing really well in to a channel where you don't really have that data yet? Because the typical, or at least the prototypical place where you would see meat snacks and specifically meat sticks was convenience stores, right?
[00:13:27] Eugene Kang: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Ray Latif: And now you see them everywhere.
[00:13:28] Eugene Kang: Yeah.
[00:13:29] Ray Latif: You know, when you're talking to those retail buyers, is it a data story as much as it is a trend story? How do you convince them that this is going to bring incremental value to their stores?
[00:13:38] Eugene Kang: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a data story. And it's also a macro story, too. It's beyond just the consumption at the store level. But it's also, let's just face the facts and look at the data and where consumers are coming from, from other categories to ours. What are they seeking? They're seeking protein. And so as you kind of lay out this broader consumer story as opposed to just like, hey, I'm kicking butt over at, you know, X retailer, you should bring it in, you know, Y retailer, right? It's more like, there's a general shift that's happening at the consumer level. And we're trying our best to educate our retail partners on that, right? And look, it doesn't hurt that where we were doing really well at our kind of marquee retailers where a lot of people look to go, okay, if it's working over there, I don't want to miss out on the boat.
[00:14:23] Ray Latif: So it's a holistic data story as opposed to saying, here's some great data that we have, but it may not necessarily apply to every aspect of a retailer's business. I mentioned that you're growing really fast. You know, 300 million plus in revenue is just spectacular. So congratulations on that. And what's even more impressive is that you're outpacing the category as a whole, given that there are some pretty serious players in this business who are continuing to, you know, press on the gas. I'm curious as to how you're moving faster than they are.
[00:14:57] Eugene Kang: Yeah, I mean, look, I think the category is growing. Frankly, you know, us and one other brand, we're one of the two brands that are actually driving a lot of the category growth. So if you removed one of us, it would actually show not the same growth rate that you'd see in the category overall. And I'd say, you know, how we're kind of keeping pace or how are we kind of outpacing the category growth is, look, for us, you know, we're incredibly disciplined about how we think about our innovation pipeline and where we go actually after distribution. And for us, we try not to go too wide. We try to go really deep with our retail partners. And when we kind of exercise that, we see great results. For us, our retail partners that we launched with back in 2018, we're still continuing to work with them on how do we go deeper with you and how do we continue to grow in the category.
[00:15:46] Ray Latif: What's an example of a retail partner that you had in 2018 that you still have a good partnership with and making it work?
[00:15:54] Eugene Kang: Yeah. I mean, Eugene Kang is a good one. I mean, when I launched with Eugene Kang, we got two items in there, two bags of jerky, right? And we've expanded that to now, I think we're up to 15 SKUs now.
[00:16:05] Ray Latif: Wow. I see a lot of archer at Eugene Kang, like way more than I used to. Did something happen this year in particular? Or maybe it's just the new branding.
[00:16:13] Eugene Kang: Maybe it's the new branding, but we've had a pretty good deficit distribution year over year and you have a great team that does a good job at that. But I think that's a good example of the partnership of where we were in 2018 and it being, ironically, just a jerky business to where we are today in 2025. you know, 15 SKUs and all ranging from bags of jerky to single serve to family-size offerings to multi-pack sticks to individual sticks, right? So, you know, we're really trying to continue to, like, master our own category. And we're constantly thinking about, like, what are the need states for the consumer? And we've learned, like, look, like, the consumer that consumes jerky is different than the consumer that consumes sticks. And so we're just constantly just trying to understand that need state and try to educate our partners.
[00:16:58] Ray Latif: By the way, you just reminded me, I need to go to Eugene Kang because your multi-pack minis are on sale. They're on promotion right now.
[00:17:05] Eugene Kang: Are they really?
[00:17:05] Ray Latif: Yeah. Eugene, of course they're on, you should know this. I know you're like arm's length from them. But no, in all seriousness, I think I mean, I love when I see it on promotion because, you know, meat sticks are not inexpensive. I mean, they're a premium product. And I feel like in this day and age, everyone's always looking at prices, no matter if you live in an affluent area, if you're part of an affluent family or otherwise. And I think it's really important and incumbent upon food brands to make their products as accessible and as affordable as possible. And you can do that a lot more easily, I think, if you have your own manufacturing facilities, right? You've operated vertically for a long time. When did you think about the importance of doing so and how have you scaled that vertical integration over the years?
[00:17:57] Eugene Kang: Yeah, yeah. When I bought the business, when I started the business in 2011, it came with a factory. Now, it was a small factory. It was 2,000 square feet. I call it a glorified commercial kitchen. I mean, I stumbled into vertical integration because, you know, my family background is, you know, they're immigrants from South Korea. They own gas stations, right? And I was always taught as a young kid from my father, like, own the real estate, own the real estate whenever you do business. And so it just inherently in my DNA, I was, you know, just thought you have to have an asset. You can't just build a brand, right? So, you know, I stumbled into it. But then as I continue to grow the business, I've learned like, A, all the big players in this category, right, the conventional guys are all vertically integrated. B, the co-packing landscape is actually not robust, right? So there was actually an inflection point for our business where we could have been a co-packer and just stick with that business model. But I had such high aspirations for the brand and push the brand. So for me, it was like very obvious, OK, like we stumbled into it, but like we're going to stick to this vertical integration over time. And like that 2,000 square feet went from, you know, it went from 2,000 square feet initially to 14,000 and we tacked on another 16,000. And fast forward today and we have two facilities, right? One that's in San Bernardino, California, that's over 70,000 square feet that produces all of our jerky products in-house.
[00:19:14] Ray Latif: Used to produce cold pressed juice from what I hear.
[00:19:16] Eugene Kang: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it was the old Evolution Fresh processing facility. Yeah. You know, that facility produces all of our jerky products and a little bit of our sticks. And then we just opened up our second facility in Vernon, which is about like 15 minutes away from downtown LA. Vernon, those that don't know, is like kind of the, you know, industrial capital of the West Coast.
[00:19:37] Ray Latif: If you've ever watched season two of True Detective, there's a Vernon type city. That's a big part of that season.
[00:19:44] Eugene Kang: So Vernon is a city. It sits outside of LA. It's its own city. They have their own police, own fire department, et cetera. And there's only like 30 people that actually live in the city. Like it's purely industrial, right? And so you've got massive legacy companies that build there that they're still processing. Like GT Day's facility is in Vernon. So we found the old former Farmer John facility that made the famous hot dogs and bacons. It was vacant and so we took that over and just opened up that facility to produce all of our sticks.
[00:20:20] Ray Latif: You know, when you own your own assets, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, there might be long-term debt. There's the actual cost of owning the equipment and maintaining that equipment. And so, you know, outlaying the money to operate, own and operate your own manufacturing facilities is not necessarily something that a lot of entrepreneurs can do, but it's proven to be such an important part of your business. Did you realize, I think, at the time in 2018 that you would be here? Or did you, I guess, how did you assess the potential for your business such that you lined the company with the ability to, you know, at one point own what you own right now? Does that make sense?
[00:21:04] Eugene Kang: Yeah. Yeah. Like kind of like how did we see. Seven years out and kind of where we are today.
[00:21:10] Ray Latif: Yeah, I guess I've asked this question of entrepreneurs before which is how do you balance? Ambition and I can tell you're an ambitious person Eugene With potential.
[00:21:21] Eugene Kang: Well, first of all, you have to give credit to a good team. We've got an incredible operating team from all the way from operations down to finance to sales and marketing and I Look, what I would say is, back in 2018 when we first launched Meat Stix and we did that interview, we had no idea what Stix was going to become. And so you have to be incredibly disciplined on what you know and what you're good at. And so when we launched Stix, we didn't launch it making the products, because there would be a whole new set of equipment. So I said at the time, look, we're going to work with this co-packer and launch it, because they make Stix. They do a really good job at it. We make jerky. And so it's too early in the game to start investing in equipment. So you just got to be disciplined on that front. And when we launched Styx, we stayed nimble. But when it quickly started taking off, we had to start laying down the pathway of like, OK, eventually we're going to have to vertically integrate this product. Now, along the way, things change and evolve. Like, the co-packing network just got consolidated and consolidated, and all of a sudden, like, it became this big behemoth. And frankly, without them, we would not be here where we are. And look, along the way, you have an honest conversation with your partners and say, look, as you know, I'm not just another brand that you produce for. I do have vertical integration capabilities. I do make jerky. And so, like, eventually, one day, like, that is probably going to be the pathway for us. So you might not want to need to build more additional capacity for me, because I'm starting to start laying down the bricks. It's as much as I like to say that, you know, it was this mastermind plan from 2018 to now. It wasn't. It was more like we always knew that at some point we want to vertically integrate, but timing is always the question mark. And when is the right time? And look, it doesn't hurt when you have, you know, when you're scaling your business and you've got, you know, you're north of 100 million, all of a sudden you start to see, OK, like we're in a much different financial position. Our balance sheet is in a different position. Now we can actually start entertaining a bigger capital expenditure, like building your own stick facility.
[00:23:15] Ray Latif: Do you see more value in your manufacturing capabilities or in the brand itself? Because earlier you had said, you know, we could have just been a manufacturer of jerky and meat sticks. And you said, no, I really believed in creating a brand. But where is there most value in your opinion?
[00:23:33] Eugene Kang: Yeah, I'd say our biggest value leading up to this year was our operational chops. You know, and I don't think it's just manufacturing. I think broadly speaking, like, I think we have a master class team in terms of, like, logistics and, like, how do we think about saving money on, like, everything ranging from packaging to ingredients. And we're just a really good operating team. And I would say that we always were strong commercially, right? Like, we always thought about, like, what's the right products? What's the right attributes? What do consumers want? But we never really put a big emphasis on the brand. And I'd say the team that we have today, their goal has been, it's the one goal. It's like, look, you guys now got to get the brand to get to where it needs to be, given that we've done all this upfront work around the commercial and operational side of the house, right? So I'd say up until this year, I'd say our biggest strength has been our commercial chops and our operational chops. Moving forward, I'm incredibly bullish on our marketing and our brand advantage.
[00:24:30] Ray Latif: Operations, if you have a good operations team, it can make a humongous difference in your brand. But I've never really dialed this down to a specific strength, right? And you mentioned something just now that I think probably answers my question or my query here, which is when you're talking at operations, essentially you're talking about saving money and not wasting money and making sure that you can bring costs down where you can as often as you can. Is that essentially what you see in terms of the vision for and the reason for being for your operating team?
[00:25:05] Eugene Kang: Yeah, I'd say saving money for sure. Productivity is always there. But I also think just execution too, right? Like ultimately, you know, the goal is to save money. But I mean, even something as like, you know, getting logistics. Logistics is completely, you know, understated in the early days of building a CPG business. But as you start to scale rapidly, You won't know it and then you realize your logistics is a nightmare. But having an incredible operating team to start thinking about your routes and your truck lanes and where your 3PL warehouses are located and thinking about those inter-transfer, like those are the little details that like we just... They're pretty big details. They're big in hindsight, but I think in the moment you're just there. When you're busy building your business as an entrepreneur, you're not thinking about those things because you're just constantly trying to move from point A to point B. But as you start to scale the business, you start to realize that point A to point B starts to get really taxing if you don't start really fine tuning that piece.
[00:26:03] Ray Latif: Do you know everything about your operations business as much as you feel like you need to, or do you feel comfortable delegating those responsibilities?
[00:26:10] Eugene Kang: You know, I hate to say this, but like, honestly, the operational side of the business is one where I still am heavily involved in, and to a fault, right? Like, I'm still the guy, like, making deals on all of our protein procurement purchases for the year. I don't think you need to be sorry about that. Well, no, I say that because, like, I do think that at some point, entrepreneurs have to figure out how to delegate to the team. But, like, for me, my golden rule is, you know, we talk about it as a leadership team all the time. It's like, what are the most vital things that could break the business? And like, those are the things that I just will never let go entirely control of. Like, I just have to constantly monitor. Like, to me, protein is a big percentage of our cost of goods. And so I'm, I'm always going to have my eyes on the ball there. So. You're still up at night thinking about our protein sources, where are they coming from? I just was on a vacation with my family and we visited South Korea and their version of cattle there is called Hanul, which is like their version of Wagyu. And it's so tasty. And all I can think about on our whole family trip was like, How do I tap into the Hanoi market? And my wife was just like, can you just not do that right now? Like, I just need you to like, be here. And I'm like, all I can think about is like, this Korean cattle market is so on top, we have to figure out how to get like, meat sticks into Korea using the Korean cattle. You're a true entrepreneur. I think about beef all the time.
[00:27:27] Ray Latif: That's a quote. You should mic drop right there. I think about beef all the time. I think it's important to be on as often as you can be as an entrepreneur. But yeah, there are times you need to unplug. Again, I get the sense that you're a really ambitious and competitive person. Am I right in thinking that? Yeah, I'm pretty competitive. I'm pretty ambitious too, but yeah. Is it important to be competitive as an entrepreneur?
[00:27:53] Eugene Kang: I mean, you have to be. Every category is increasingly getting more competitive. And the brands that are coming into the space every day, whether it's my category or anyone else, it's definitely competitive. Now, I don't think it needs to be a zero-sum game. And I actually think that is some of the flaws in the ecosystem today, where there are certain entrepreneurs that just want to make it a zero-sum game and it has to just be like one player. I don't think that's right. But, you know, how do you stay competitive, but realize that it's, I almost like it to like, there are athletes that are competing. And when you're on the floor and you're competing, you're trying to win the game, but off the court, you could be friends and you could try to trade notes. Right. But I do think when you're competing in the space, you're, you're trying to be as competitive as possible and win for sure. But do I think it's a zero-sum game? No, but I also don't know if you need 10 brands, you know, hawking out the same product either.
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[00:30:02] Ray Latif: As I mentioned, I think differentiation is so critical in our industry. When we talked about Kokada, like who are they competing against? Well, when it comes to coconut spreads, not many, but they're still competing against fruit spreads and peanut butter and so on and so forth. And a lot of times differentiation comes from innovation. I really enjoyed the beef taco products that you made. They're so good. You launched those pretty recently, right?
[00:30:23] Eugene Kang: Last year.
[00:30:23] Ray Latif: Yeah. Last year.
[00:30:24] Eugene Kang: Yeah.
[00:30:25] Ray Latif: When you think about innovation, is it a lot of times kind of still a gut feeling because you know the brand so well, you know your consumers so well? Or is it really very much, again, like a data-driven approach to innovation?
[00:30:36] Eugene Kang: You know, I think it's a little bit of both. And here's why I say that. You know, the data will tell us, hey, consumers don't want to get too far off the beaten path with flavor expansion. And we know that. But then we'll launch something like a beef taco, which isn't in the kind of conversation from the data perspective, but it does incredibly well for us, right? So like, I think there's an intuition that is in play for sure. But data helps us when it comes to like thinking through like pack formats, and, you know, multi packs, etc, like, getting smarter on pack innovation. And I think we try to use our gut where we can on, you know, does that kind of flavor expansion make sense or not? Because it's so hard with the data. Like if you're trying to create a new flavor, the data is not going to really show you whether or not that's going to be successful. You could do surveys, but no one really knows.
[00:31:27] Ray Latif: How much of your innovation strategy plays into your pricing strategy? Sounds like it does based on what you're talking about.
[00:31:32] Eugene Kang: It does. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would say it plays a big role, I think, you know, because most of our innovation is around you know, pack and pack formats, price pack architecture is very vital for us. So we try to be very conscious about, you know, channel conflicts and our price pack architecture in general.
[00:31:48] Ray Latif: Do you feel like if you could, you would only sell single serve format products? Because I feel like the margins are highest probably for the single serve or single format.
[00:31:58] Eugene Kang: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, if you could. But I mean, like, you know, let's take our, you know, our mini sticks. It's, you know, obviously it's the cow that gives us milk, right, in our business today. That individual mini stick is in various different count sizes, depending on where you shop at. For me, it's like, we're still producing that individual mini-stick, right, in masses. And how it shows up, whether it's a 28-count bag or a 16-count bag or an 8-count bag, for us, like, that end is not really going to be the biggest needle. Like, that doesn't really hurt our operation. We're still producing that mini-stick day in and day out. And so we're trying to get smarter about, when we do pack innovation and price pack architecture, like, how does it tie into our operational side of the business?
[00:32:44] Ray Latif: I almost feel like the multi-packs of the mini-sticks are a really good introduction to the next generation of meat stick consumers and meat snack consumers to begin with. I see a lot of younger kids eating them and then as they get older, they're going to be eating the larger sticks and the bags of jerky and so on and so forth. I don't know if that was intentional or how much of that is intentional, the mini stick as a trial to the brand, but it feels like it's a natural extension of what you're doing.
[00:33:09] Eugene Kang: It is. I mean, look, I, my parents are immigrants from South Korea. So again, I grew up in a retail environment. They owned gas stations and liquor stores. And the most iconic memorable snack for me as a kid was actually not Doritos or Cheetos or anything like that. It was actually that small 25 cent Slim Jim Yeah, that was on the counter table and I would eat that like crazy as a kid And I remember thinking to myself like you're still alive, which is good. Yeah, well Yeah, but it was memorable for me right and even to this day we joke about it as a team of like That item is still a big item for Slim Jim and it's actually still growing, believe it or not. And it, you know, as a consumer through my journey, like you start to go get the taller sticks as you get older, right? And obviously I don't consume that anymore, but for sure it played a role of how we thought about our mistakes and the eventual sizing up, et cetera.
[00:34:04] Ray Latif: Yeah, I'm not surprised it's still growing. I think people are looking for affordable, accessible, as I mentioned, protein. And, you know, as it becomes more expensive to eat and live in America, you know, you're looking for products like that. I guess does the current state of the economy, how much of that factors into your long-term strategy? Because hopefully at one point we'll get out of this rut where groceries are just so ridiculously expensive. I talked about this with my colleagues. earlier today or actually yesterday and I was saying every time I go to the grocery store now and I price shop I look for stuff that's on promotion like you know when Archer's on promotion I'll buy it but every time I go into the grocery store and I buy like I don't know 10 items I know I'm paying like a hundred bucks
[00:34:47] Eugene Kang: Look, the inflation is real. And, you know, we know, you know, from the data and talking to consumers, you know, everyone's feeling the pain, for sure. I mean, their grocery bills have gotten higher and, you know, for for various reasons. And, look, for us, what we're trying to do, and I think we're not doing a good job of it right now, but I think we will next year is, How do we communicate value to the consumer in a, what is relative to our brand and what we stand for? So what I mean by that is, look, I think we're going to be entering in an environment where everything around us is expensive. And I think consumers are gonna have to be really choiceful about what they decide to purchase. in their basket and in their pantry. And if we want to be one of those items that are always going to be a staple, which we've enjoyed so far, we have to make sure that we scream value and value doesn't necessarily mean showing up in price. It also could mean, hey, how are we messaging it to the consumer of saying like, look, this is portable. It's protein. You are getting value because it's if you compare that to other snacks where you don't get that same portability, individual wrap, protein, et cetera, we want to make sure that even in this inflationary environment, we are still actually valuable. We're still giving you value, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And look, I will tell you, as a brand that's vertically integrated, we are able to be a little bit more nimble in our pricing. But Look, I think the whole CPT ecosystem has a, you know, has a role to play here in the upcoming year about how do we make sure, you know, the consumer is finding value, right? Because I think, you know, for the longest time, you know, everyone's been talking about better for you and health and health and wellness oriented brands and premium brands. We're going to an era where I think the consumer is going to have to reevaluate what does value mean to them, if that makes sense, you know?
[00:36:46] Ray Latif: And value means portability, protein, but real in quality. And I think your tagline of stick to real, if people can see or if you're able to communicate value in the fact that you are a real quality meat stick and meat snack Brandt Gehrs a long way with that consumer. They're willing to pay a premium, even though that premium is sort of affordable in the big scheme of just eating, you know, animal based protein.
[00:37:14] Eugene Kang: Yeah, if you were buying an ultra processed snack, and it's more expensive than it used to be, as a consumer, I too would be pissed. I'd be like, what, what's going on here? Right. And I do think that reckoning, which we're already seeing in the data, is only going to continue to accelerate. And I think, again, like the consumer is going to have a real kind of you know, moment of truth, I think, as they kind of progress into next year of like, OK, what does value mean for me? Right. And because on an absolute dollar basis, I'm going to have to make some tradeoffs. And what are the what are the needs and what are like the nice to haves?
[00:37:51] Ray Latif: Are your folks still around? They are. Yeah. Yeah. Are they are they happy? Are they proud of what you're doing?
[00:37:58] Eugene Kang: Yeah, they're definitely proud. My dad and I, he's still my, he's my best friend. We talk every day about, you know, life. And, you know, it's always funny for him because he's, I think for him, he's a serial entrepreneur. And I think he's always joked, like, I never wanted you to be an entrepreneur because it's a stressful, stressful thing to do. What did he want you to be? I don't know. Like every good Asian parent, like every Asian kid, like be a doctor or a lawyer or something like that, some kind of white collar job. But, you know, here we are. So.
[00:38:25] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's cool. I grew up in a family where my dad was an entrepreneur and he owned a chain of gourmet food stores. And I wouldn't say it's ironic that I'm in the business that I'm in right now, but it's funny that I have this opportunity. I never made the leap. I never, I guess, had the guts in so many ways to own my own business like that. But I'm sure that no matter what your dad says, he's really happy that you're in the business you're in right now because it's a tough business. And I think more than anything, if you can make it as an entrepreneur in CPG, you can pretty much do anything in life. You could go back to school and become that lawyer or doctor if you want to.
[00:39:04] Eugene Kang: Oh man, it's high praise. Like we were just in the room with a bunch of founders in the audience. And, you know, look, I will stress this, like it is, There is I mean like I have not been privileged to work in any other industry, but I would say in CPG There's something so romantic about seeing your product on shelf and seeing consumers pick it up. It is so rewarding man I mean even now I still like when I go to stores and I see the product like I just it's cool Right, and that's what's rewarding. But look through that there's behind the scenes there's a lot of like heartaches and pain and and a lot of up and downs and I got, like I said, in the room, I was like, you know, they asked like, what's one of the advices you'd give? And I'd say, look, it's just being patient, you know? And if you're in the game, if you're gonna be a student in the game, you're in it for the long haul, and you're not here to just make a quick buck, you just gotta play the long game. And like, that category manager's not returning your phone call, like, trust me, like, whether through like, sheer fortune or not, like, they're gonna eventually return your phone call. And you will get a shot, right? And how you capitalize on that is going to be the interesting thing, right? And that's to each their own. But I just think you have to be incredibly disciplined and patient in this game.
[00:40:14] Ray Latif: Yeah, great advice. And it worked out for you, and it's worked out for Archer.
[00:40:19] Eugene Kang: We're still grinding. We're still grinding.
[00:40:20] Ray Latif: Well, look. I'm sure you've had some knocks at your door, some, some phone calls from bigger companies saying, Hey, you know, anytime you're ready to jump off this train, we'll be there for you. But I think you're, you're right here. You guys are still growing.
[00:40:36] Eugene Kang: Yeah, no, I mean, look, you know, for us, like I'm, I'm having so much fun and we have such an amazing team. You know, for me, it's like, we've got such What gets me excited outside of seeing our product on shelf is the people we have in our business. I mean, it's, it's so, it's so, it is so much more fun building a business with the right people around you.
[00:40:56] Ray Latif: Eugene, I can't thank you enough for taking this time. It's been such a great conversation. I know our audience is going to get a lot out of it. I'm just, it's thrilling. It's really thrilling for me. I sound like a broken record because I talk about this all the time. Thrilling when I get to meet an entrepreneur earlier on to their, earlier in their business, right? Like I know you started, you bought the business in 2011 and you were on Taste Radio seven years later, but like another seven years, you know, you've been doing this 14 years now and just the growth that you've seen, the fact that you've become a household name, a household brand, I mean, that just doesn't happen. And so when we see things like that, when you see this like young scrappy brand and now one that's doing $300 million plus in business, it's just, It's so exciting for me. So exciting for us.
[00:41:46] Eugene Kang: I really appreciate it.
[00:41:47] Ray Latif: Congratulations on everything that you've built to this point. Let's sit down again really soon.
[00:41:51] Eugene Kang: Yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you. Thanks.
[00:41:56] Ray Latif: That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Kratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. you
