[00:00:09] Ray Latif: Hello, friends, and thanks for tuning in to Taste Radio, the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and I'm with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jacqui Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we feature an interview with Julie Cielo, the founder of pioneering non-alcoholic cocktail brand Ferm Fatale, who discusses the good, the bad, and the complicated of being a first mover. I remember when Julie graced the stage at BevNET Live as part of our New Beverage Showdown competition. I think that was in 2015. I hadn't seen a product like that. Of course, now we see thousands of products like that. And of course, we see them even more so because it's Dry January. Dry January 2025. Everybody seems to be doing it. Mike is ahead of the game. He's been doing it for some time.
[00:01:05] John Craven: Dry January, October, November, December. Well, I didn't do a dry December. No, I had some cocktails at Christmas and remind me why I don't like. Oh, OK. I like to have too many cocktails.
[00:01:16] Jacqui Brugliera: Didn't you? Did you have some wine at Bevanette Live or am I imagining?
[00:01:18] John Craven: I did.
[00:01:19] Mike Schneider: Yeah.
[00:01:19] Jacqui Brugliera: Because I kind of vaguely remember going back to the hotel and you were like slumped over on a park bench.
[00:01:24] John Craven: Oh, gee. Yeah, I had two sips of wine. I called security to get rid of you. You were in the marina at Marina Del Rey. I was swimming in the marina. Surfing at 4 a.m. You can't surf in the marina.
[00:01:38] Ray Latif: Yeah I almost thought that John Craven was doing dry junior I saw your post on Instagram about you mixing some stuff on a Friday night and I was Almost gonna DM you and be like what is with you man know that I was holding a beer while taking that photo No our dear chief operating officer Carolyn Craven the so-called better half I would definitely call her that or she's gonna come for you. I won't be back for the next episode She's gonna cut my legs out, but no she's doing a Dry January, which is doing the Dry January.
[00:02:16] Jacqui Brugliera: How's that going? Oh? Uh, pretty good so far. We've been, uh, you know, going through a bunch of the products that, uh, I had a pile of products that had come in for Dry January back in like December, you know, PR companies getting a jump on things. So yeah, we've been trying to mix some of the, uh, products up. So I have found that, uh, What works really well though, real pro tip here for Dry January users is substitute any sort of sparkling water with like Magic Cactus or Breeze or another cannabis beverage and you'll have something that works pretty good. California Sober January is what you're saying.
[00:02:55] Ray Latif: Something like that. Yeah. Jackie, how's Dry January going?
[00:02:58] Ferm Fatale: So far so good. I, I've went into it thinking I'm going to do a Dry January. So far it's been dry and I've just been, you know, drinking water. But I think by next week I might be craving a little bit more, you know, of a buzz.
[00:03:13] Ray Latif: Huh? Yeah. You might be craving some dampness.
[00:03:16] Ferm Fatale: Yes. Some dampness or, you know, California buzz.
[00:03:20] John Craven: Well, there's the, uh, what is it? Quitters Friday or whatever. We'll have a couple more meetings, Jackie. I'll have you, I'll have you wanting some alcohol.
[00:03:31] Ray Latif: I have a feeling that some folks even those who are doing Dry January will be imbibing toward the end of the month That's when a couple of big events are taking place at least ones that we're attending Beginning with the winter fancy food show in Las Vegas Love that show it is happening beginning on Dry January 19th and going through Tuesday January 21st John will be there on Sunday and Monday. I'll be there on Monday very excited for that show First time I've been there in a couple of years. Very easy show to navigate. It's one hall. It's a brand new hall in the Las Vegas Convention Center. You can walk in about a day, day and a half. I'm really excited to see folks. If you are attending, if you're exhibiting, if you're walking the show floor, please let us know. Send me a note. rlatif at BevNET.com. You can tell John as well. Just send us a note at ask at Taste Radio.com. DM us on the LinkedIns and the Grams. You guys know how to do it. The following day, Tuesday, January 21st, John, myself, Jackie, and the WCB crew, that's the West Coast Branch crew, will be at Naturally San Diego's exclusive pre-party for the UNFI Spring and Summer Show. It's happening from 6 to 9 p.m. at Venue 808. Networking celebration, 20 buyers, UNFI staff, and of course, BevNET will be on hand. Hey, we're a sponsor. We are a sponsor. We are. We love, we love Naturally San Diego. We do a bunch of stuff with them, including this event. Very excited to see folks there. I'll be doing interviews with attendees. So if you are attending, please let us know. We would love to sit down with you. We're going to be doing some short interviews. We're doing some long interviews. We're doing some social media content. We're doing everything for three hours. We want to know who you are, what you're doing, what you're up to, because we're going to be. Want to know your shoe size. Recording all that stuff. Your swag your swag your swag yes And just let you know if you're a naturally San Diego member you can get in for 95 bucks non-members 115 always save money 20 bucks goes a long way 20 bucks might buy you a sixer a sixer.
[00:05:42] SPEAKER_??: Oh
[00:05:43] Ray Latif: of Patagonia Provisions' new Kenza Golden Brew. It's a non-alcoholic brew that they partnered with Deschutes Brewery on. I love everything that Patagonia Provisions is doing. They came up with a bunch of new products. They sent me some, including this Kernza Golden Brew.
[00:05:58] Jacqui Brugliera: Did it come with a free backpack, Ray?
[00:06:00] Ray Latif: No, I wish it did, but it did not.
[00:06:02] Jacqui Brugliera: It's so sad. Remember that time we got backpacks? Yeah, we got free backpacks. Then COVID happened like a month later, so karma's kind of a bitch there.
[00:06:09] Ray Latif: In honor of Dry January, I figured I'd pop these out. Sorry, Jackie, as always. Kernza, so as I mentioned, Patagonia Provisions and Diffuse made these with Kernza. Kernza, according to the company, is a soil-saving, carbon-capturing perennial grain. They also made it with organic Helios and Adena hops. Certified organic malted to row barley and regenerative organic certified rye this whole thing's the whole the beer itself is USDA certified organic That is good. Yeah.
[00:06:39] John Craven: Yeah, I I'm excited to try this I I chugged it cuz it said it was wildly drinkable That's the reason you chugged it. Yeah I gotta say, this packaging is giving mad other brand vibes, too. Doesn't it look a little bit like it goes right next to Athletic?
[00:06:57] Ray Latif: It's athletic-ish, but I think that's fine because I think that's kind of what people are expecting to see when they want a non-alcoholic brew. I do say that if I tried this without knowing it's non-alcoholic, I would think it's just a regular beer, which is great.
[00:07:12] John Craven: I would say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And also, this tastes great. I mean, Deschutes, from my days of drinking Deschutes beer, I know I can do no wrong. And this is, this is phenomenal.
[00:07:28] Ray Latif: Deschutes based in the great city of Bend, Oregon.
[00:07:30] Ferm Fatale: Is this a limited release or this is going to be?
[00:07:33] Ray Latif: No, this was actually launched in December and this is my first time trying this. Excuse me, it was launched in September, not December.
[00:07:40] Jacqui Brugliera: I've been waiting for samples of this.
[00:07:42] Ray Latif: Now I know where they went. Yes, they went. Redirected to Ray's house. Yes, they're actually in my, I keep them. Just like in the glove box of your car? No, no, no. I keep them in the crawl space under my porch. So Patagonia makes amazing tinned seafood products. They have a new sardine flavor. It's sardines and tomato sauce. I don't have the tomato sauce one with me. I forgot it. I'm sorry. Inspired by Puttanesca. Yeah, you lost me at sardines. Yeah, there you go.
[00:08:09] John Craven: I was going to bring some for Jack when I see you.
[00:08:11] Ray Latif: Well you can try with tomato sauce capers onions olives and garlic you can eat it straight from the can I tried these sardines and beans the other day Sardines plus black beans corn and salsa. It's delicious. I just love the prime.
[00:08:27] SPEAKER_??: I
[00:08:27] Ferm Fatale: Sardines and beans, a combination you never think of. But I feel like Patagonia does a really good job of just being very specific with the products they're launching. Like as someone that's hikes a lot, like these are all things that I would be able to bring hiking, like a non-alcohol beer. I always want a beer at the end of the trail and now I can use their beer in Dry January.
[00:08:47] Jacqui Brugliera: So you have the proper use for it. Ray, on the other hand, I've seen him. Probably he's gonna do this on the flight to Vegas sitting in a middle seat just reaches in his bag He's very clear about that The whole time
[00:09:13] Ray Latif: Now, I really do respect and love everything that Patagonia Provisions is doing. I sat down with the CEO of Patagonia, the entire company, Ryan Gellert, last year at Expo West 2024, and he and I, alongside Paul Lightfoot, who is the GM of Patagonia Provisions, we chatted about the vision, the execution, everything that they're trying to do and how it is very tied to their ideals and their focus for Patagonia, the apparel company. So if you have an opportunity to listen to it, it's called Patagonia's CEO Shares the Playbook on Preservation and Provisions. You can find it on Taste Radio.com. And you don't even need to be a VIP to watch or listen to that episode. I can't believe you've been hiding this from us. This is phenomenal. It just came in. Okay, he's talking about the beer.
[00:10:05] John Craven: The beer.
[00:10:06] Ray Latif: Yes. But I do want to note that if you are a Taste Radio VIP, you will be one of our best friends, as in you will be a friend who we consider the best. Taste Radio VIP enables you to receive monthly newsletters that keep you up to date on everything going on with the podcast, our live events, our meetups, where we're going to be, etc. It also gives you a whole bunch of information about my hopes and dreams. And, you know, these are things that I know people want to know more about, like, what's inside you, Ray Latif, and how can I get in there? No, in all seriousness, it's a really good way for us to stay in touch with you, to share opportunities for you to be on the podcast, to highlight what you're doing. Just head to Taste Radio.com slash VIP to sign up. It'll take two minutes to do so. And once again, you'll be one of our best friends.
[00:11:00] John Craven: Ray shares his goals for 2025.
[00:11:02] Jacqui Brugliera: his new year's revolution revolution revolution and hopes for manchester and we can guarantee that jackie edits all the weird shit that ray tries to put in those cut like twenty percent of the football yeah she just deleted like eighty percent and you know maybe insert something about women's basketball you know there you go you know what here picture of mike chained to his desk in our most recent newsletter i will explain and this is in the newsletter i'm looking at it right now
[00:11:31] Ray Latif: Why, when I was asked in college what I wanted to do after graduation, I said I wanted to start a brand of better-for-you sodas. True story. So read all about it in the newsletter. Oh, you got me on the hook.
[00:11:43] Ferm Fatale: I'm going to have to read it.
[00:11:44] Ray Latif: Yeah, it's a fun story. It's a fun story. I think she was being sincere, but I don't know for sure.
[00:11:50] Ferm Fatale: I don't think so. I guess you'll find out next week.
[00:11:55] Ray Latif: Well done, Jackie. Well done. I like this new Jackie for 2025. The sarcastic Jackie? The sardonic Jackie?
[00:12:04] Ferm Fatale: Bit of evil.
[00:12:05] Ray Latif: Here, I'll throw one back at you. You know, I was really surprised about this. And if you want to be kind of skeptical and cynical about something, I would suggest this. So it turns out that Native which is a simple, clean, and effective personal care company, according to this press release, has partnered with two very well-known beverage brands, Haritos and Dunkin, of all brands, to bring you, I can't even explain this, apparently products that smell like Dunkin Donuts coffee and Haritos soda. So I'm reading from this press release about the Haritos Partnership inspired by the juiciest flavors good lord bringing refreshments from the fiesta to your shower routine The collection includes deodorant good God what body wash hand and body lotion shampoo and conditioner in a variety of fruity scents Okay, it's available exclusively at native co's calm and at Target Now, we wouldn't be talking about this unless I saw this. And they do the exact same damn thing with Dunkin' Donuts, except the Dunkin' Donuts stuff is available at Walmart exclusively. So, well, and their website. I mean, at least you'll smell delicious. Yeah, the Dunkin' Donuts stuff, you have a strawberry frosted, a vanilla sprinkler. I was thinking of Doritos. A blueberry cobbler and a Boston cream. You have a Boston cream that you can get in deodorant, shampoo, conditioner and body wash. So it's just the cream and the shampoo. I like it. What?
[00:13:31] Jacqui Brugliera: It's the cream from the Boston Cream.
[00:13:33] Ray Latif: Can you imagine washing your hair with Boston Cream? I mean, don't do that, please. Please try it and report back, Ray. Okay. No, I'm not going to try this. I can't imagine. I mentioned this to you guys last week. I can't imagine why Native, which is a pretty well-respected brand within the natural channel, among natural channel consumers, would partner with a soda brand and a coffee brand, a coffee brand Dunkin Donuts of all coffee brands. I can't, I don't know. I don't get it.
[00:14:05] Ferm Fatale: And it's pretty expensive too. Like I think I bought a two pack of their deodorant. It was 15 bucks, you know, and I don't know if I want to smell like Dunkin Donuts and Jarritos.
[00:14:14] John Craven: Yeah. Are you going to end up like birds trying to peck at your hair and stuff if your hair smells like fostin cream donut?
[00:14:21] Jacqui Brugliera: Sugar these companies sell like fruit flavored stuff. I mean natives owned by Procter & Gamble anyway, so you know big company It seems like the big company playbook a little bit. Okay. Do some collaborations with other big brands, and you know it's effective We're talking about it, so we wouldn't be talking about it if they had a new like I don't know like one of those Scent whatever okay
[00:14:44] Ferm Fatale: I guess I would just maybe guess that they would go for more premium brands to partner with rather than Dunkin' Donuts and Doritos.
[00:14:52] John Craven: I mean, tasty things, but, you know, maybe not like... You notice she moved away from Boston before she started talking crap about Dunkin' Donuts. I used to drink a lot of Dunkin' Donuts. You would not say that if you were standing here.
[00:15:04] Ray Latif: No, clearly they're trying to reach out to more mainstream consumers. The CEO of Native in this press release, specifically about the Dunkin', Noted that together we're elevating everyday essentials with a light-hearted touch to bring joy into personal care and fuel your routine. I feel like he's speaking to the Walmart consumer directly and saying, hey, if you haven't considered native, but you buy Dunkin' Donuts, you buy Dunkin' Donuts coffee, consider us. This is an opportunity for you to consider us.
[00:15:33] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean, to be honest, Dunks has probably better brand recognition than native.
[00:15:37] Ray Latif: That's how you know he's from Boston. He calls it Dunks.
[00:15:39] Jacqui Brugliera: Dunks. I mean, it literally is called Dunks now. Oh, yes. They didn't change your name. It's Duncan. Well, whatever. I mean, they dropped it. Who cares what it's true or false?
[00:15:50] John Craven: John Craven has been behind the counter at a Dunkin Donuts. True. I know he did that.
[00:15:55] Jacqui Brugliera: I fought the manager. I climbed over the counter. I paid my dues in dining services, slinging coffee and ice cream.
[00:16:07] Ray Latif: Okay. So I think what needs to happen here though, is we need to order some of this stuff. And when I walk there, we could definitely have used a little more soap. I'm just saying.
[00:16:15] Mike Schneider: I don't even want to think about it.
[00:16:18] Ray Latif: We're gonna have to order this stuff and by the way Jackie the deodorant the Dunkin Donuts one you get one for 13 bucks the body washes and Shampoos 10 conditioners 10 and a body lotion is 14, so maybe we buy some of stuff use it for a week See how our families feel about this see how each other Yeah, and then kind of go from there. No sure is it a deal? Yeah, I'm down for it. We'll do a challenge.
[00:16:43] Jacqui Brugliera: We'll do a Seven-day challenge I'd like to know if anyone would even notice that you smell like Dunkin' Donuts.
[00:16:50] Ferm Fatale: Yeah.
[00:16:51] Jacqui Brugliera: Probably not. Uh, I don't know.
[00:16:53] Ferm Fatale: Maybe it's just like, you know, like the body wash. It's just vanilla sugar. You know, it's just like a normal scent, but they Dunkify it.
[00:17:04] Ray Latif: Last week, the Surgeon General of the United States called for adding a cancer risk to health warning labels on alcoholic beverages and called for, quote, a reassessment of the guideline limits for alcohol consumption to account for cancer risk. And I don't think a lot of folks saw this coming. I know there was a lot of talk about alcohol leading up to the new year because of a variety of reasons or for a variety of reasons. There was a report that came out a couple of weeks prior to the new year that talked about the potential health benefits of drinking alcohol, at least a limited amount weekly. And so, you know, you think about the really big brands out there and how they're affected. You think about some of the smaller brands. You think about how consumers may rethink alcohol consumption. And at the end of the day, I kind of see this as being a short-term impact more than a long-term consequential statement or assessment of alcohol.
[00:18:05] Jacqui Brugliera: Yeah, I feel like the timing of this is impeccably bad, I would say. Just in that, you know, we're about to have a new administration come in and this seems like, you know, putting it out before another event that is going to make people forget that this probably ever happened. Also, just as maybe a cynic of how our System works with lobbying and whatnot. I think the chances of this happening are probably near zero anytime soon and beyond that I don't know, you know, there are other countries that have warnings on alcohol and It's not like people have stopped consuming alcohol. It's pretty different than like tobacco where, you know, it's on a package that people hold and carry, as opposed to, like, I don't know, it's probably, if you go into a bar and order a beer, like, one of those signs, like, you know, the ones in California, outside of everywhere, that say there might be cancer-causing things. Does that really dissuade anyone, you know?
[00:19:08] Ray Latif: No.
[00:19:08] Jacqui Brugliera: Probably not, or your favorite, the, uh, don't go in the hot tub if you have active diarrhea, which I know has never stopped you, Ray, but, um... You know I think it's it's just one of those things that it seems so far Away to believe that that will happen right now.
[00:19:28] Ray Latif: Yeah, I think that well that's why are you doing that? well because I took a photo of the hot tub at the Marriott in Anaheim. No, you stole the sign. No, I didn't steal the sign. Was that Jeffrey Klineman? No, Jeff stole the sign, but it was a different kind of sign that we're talking about. But you know, I think as funny as that is, I think there's some truth there.
[00:19:47] Mike Schneider: I mean... Ray, there's some truth to what you do?
[00:19:51] Ray Latif: To your habits? Somehow none of this is going to be cut.
[00:19:56] Jacqui Brugliera: Ray goes in with a bottle of booze with a warning and some cigarettes too.
[00:20:01] Ray Latif: Like no rules. I mean, at the end of the day, like the risks of smoking tobacco have dramatically impacted the sale of and consumption over use of tobacco in this country. You know, that took decades and maybe in decades we will see. It did.
[00:20:18] Jacqui Brugliera: But I think the other like difference with tobacco versus alcohol is that the direct and immediate impact on others of you smoking a cigarette in a public place And how it impacts me, who's not is like instantaneous, you know, whereas if you're going to get cancer from having too many drinks, like, do I give a crap that you're sitting next to me slugging down, you know, whatever?
[00:20:42] John Craven: You actually have to get up and punch somebody for it to, you know, impact them.
[00:20:46] Ray Latif: Well, or get in a car, you know, or something like that. Yeah. I mean, do something physical.
[00:20:51] John Craven: Yeah. To the other person for it to impact them.
[00:20:54] Ray Latif: For sure. For sure. Well, the big beverage alcohol companies took a bit of a hit in terms of their stock prices and. their value, so to speak. But again, I don't see this as being a long-term, impactful decision.
[00:21:09] Jacqui Brugliera: Memory is short-noted.
[00:21:11] Ray Latif: And you might be right, John, in that once a new administration comes in, which ironically probably will be sympathetic to this statement, I just don't see it being the kind of thing that's going to really shatter Americans' perspective on alcohol.
[00:21:25] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean, look, I put it in the same camp of, you know, federal legalization of marijuana. It's just one of those things that I think constantly falls in the lower tier of what the most pressing priorities are at any point in time. So it constantly like, will it get talked about again? Probably. But I just feel like it's one of those things that like actually putting these things into action. is sort of complicated. It's going to have a lot of people that don't want it. It's going to have certainly, again, the lobbyists and whatnot, which, you know, beverage alcohol is strong in this country. And to be clear, yes, Congress will have to act to add that warning label. Maybe someday, and I'm not saying it's not the right thing to do at some point, but it just isn't like an immediate freak out type of thing. I'm sure stocks will recover.
[00:22:18] Ferm Fatale: And I feel like as far as like consumers and what they're thinking, people are already, they already know that alcohol is not the best thing for them. So I don't think that they're going to be spooked by this one, you know, piece of news or this one piece of legislation. It's just like, you know, everyone has vices and what's the lesser evil. I mean, people transition from cigarettes to now they're vaping and there's always going to be something. And I think people are just going to try and pick the best option for them.
[00:22:49] Ray Latif: Well, in Mexico, I recall they added a warning label to sodas, didn't they? Because of the amount of sugar that is in them. Yeah, a lot of places have it on sugary stuff. Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, you should not consume too much alcohol. But for me, just being in this country as an American, I think obesity is perhaps the bigger issue and the amount of sugar that people consume on a daily basis. would be, for me, the target. But anyway, we'll see. We'll see indeed.
[00:23:16] John Craven: We just picked a more obvious enemy, that's all. There you go. Is it time to try products? Yeah, there's lots of products to try.
[00:23:23] Ferm Fatale: I have Caffeined. It's a new startup beverage. I believe that they are in, like, Joosta Grocery right now. It's C-A-F-I-E-N-D. And they have these cute little, like, fruits on the front. So they have a little watermelon guy and a little pineapple guy and it says kindly geeked. So the whole idea is that it's an elated tea. It's like low caffeine, 50 milligrams, I believe, from black tea. And then it has a bunch of adaptogens like L-theanine, ashwagandha. It also has like lion's mane powder and marshmallow root powder.
[00:23:58] Ray Latif: How do you spell it again?
[00:24:00] Ferm Fatale: It is C-A-F-I-E-N-D.
[00:24:03] Ray Latif: Caffeine interesting.
[00:24:05] Ferm Fatale: And it's definitely, you know, early stages. I think they have like some things to evolve on the packaging. Some of the call-outs are like that are important that are on the back. It's a black and white can versus, you know, maybe doing some more color call-outs based on the flavor rather than just these little guys in the front. And you have to look at the back to actually see what's in it. Like the adaptogens and all the goodies, because the ingredients are actually really great.
[00:24:30] John Craven: And the font's not doing them any favors either. Like, from our vantage point here, like, that's the equivalent of it being on shelf, I'd say, and it's... Is it tasty? Is it, like, one of those things where the liquid's great and, you know, they can make the package tweaks?
[00:24:46] Ferm Fatale: Yeah, it's nice and light. It's like a nice, light, like kind of juicy tea. So the taste is there. Let's get him on the horn and help him out. The taste is there, the ingredients are there. I think just some package updates and they have all the, you know, trending adaptogens and things that people are looking forward to.
[00:25:03] Ray Latif: Oh, caffeine. I get it. Yes. He's a little slow. There we go. We got there. I saw the label and I was just like, okay. Those little guys should be a little more evil looking, you know?
[00:25:14] Ferm Fatale: Yeah, they're too friendly.
[00:25:16] John Craven: They're too friendly for beans.
[00:25:18] Jacqui Brugliera: So slow. You did go to BU, so it's OK. Oh, that's also in the newsletter. Oh, yeah? Yes. All right, well, moving on. I've got a great product. You know when you get a product press release and you're kind of like, is that real? Are they ever going to make that? Well, that's what Barbarian Water is here, which has a very unique ingredient I have not seen before. 50 milligrams of bovine blood powder.
[00:25:43] Ray Latif: I gotta be honest because I received that same outreach from the same PR person and I declined samples Well, I did not I got you plenty.
[00:25:52] Jacqui Brugliera: Oh god this is the Bleed to death blood orange flavor bring it I have brought a bottle of water to race gonna pour zones.
[00:26:02] Ray Latif: There's no extra Things in here 750 milligrams of sodium a lot of sodium.
[00:26:09] SPEAKER_??: Oh
[00:26:09] Ray Latif: 60 milligrams of magnesium You're making a shake I added water in it.
[00:26:21] Jacqui Brugliera: Oh my it's like frothy what yes, it definitely looks like a it looks like a One of those Ramos fizz cocktail.
[00:26:28] John Craven: I gotta try this
[00:26:30] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean it smells like orange. It's got stevia in it too. Slide that down here.
[00:26:34] Ray Latif: Oh my god.
[00:26:35] Jacqui Brugliera: I'm getting some of the uh... No.
[00:26:37] Ray Latif: Okay. I mean... I inhaled some of the powder. Oh god.
[00:26:41] Jacqui Brugliera: I'm not gonna lie, it's hard to get past the thought of bovine blood powder. Not for me. I don't know if 50 milligrams is an efficacious dose or not, but I just feel like water is the wrong term for this.
[00:26:52] Ray Latif: It doesn't look like water. Can I have some water, please? There is some water. I mean, once you get past the head of the beverage, it's watery, but all roads bleed through a barbarian.
[00:27:02] Ferm Fatale: That's the tagline. What are the benefits? Like, what are they claiming the reason you need this in your life?
[00:27:08] Jacqui Brugliera: Oh, here we go. Learn the Barbarian Water the barbarian, uncage your mother effing Barbarian Water's a lot of F-words on this thing. It's giving me very bro vibes. I mean, it clearly is like a hydration product. It's promoting sodium, potassium, magnesium, certainly, I think, ingredients with merit in here. The flavor's a little, I just don't know about that weird foam. The foam is kind of where I'm getting hung up. Yeah, it's very easy to get hung up on the foam. It looks like cinnamon in that foam.
[00:27:41] Ray Latif: What is that flavor?
[00:27:42] Jacqui Brugliera: Also, I don't think barbarians consume stevia leaf. Another one that I was like, is this for real? This is the new AI energy drink from those of you who probably remember Bang Energy Drink, Jack O'Walk's new company. I think there's like four flavors. I've got a peach and a grape, anyone? Sure, that was definitely designed on AI. Oh, God. We keep doing this. We got to have a better way. I like I should have put it on the side and roll it. But yeah, I want to see Mike's flavor reaction here. So it's just called AI energy.
[00:28:11] John Craven: It's got Jack on the side. Jack's on the side, yeah.
[00:28:14] Ray Latif: Well, Jack was on the side of the bank cans, wasn't he? Don't recall, unfortunately.
[00:28:17] John Craven: Oh, wow. That is this is powerful. Cheers Jack, so what flavor is that you're drinking? My great. Oh, he's got peach.
[00:28:27] Ray Latif: I have great Why does it say 18 plus only are you not supposed to be drinking this if you're a younger consumer?
[00:28:33] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean, I think well, I mean he's he's Maybe trying to learn from the past here, but I mean it's labeled as a supplement I don't I can't read how much caffeine's in this.
[00:28:43] Ray Latif: I'm sure it's a lot Taking the high road you probably shouldn't be selling this to people under 18 Justin proc now would have or take some issue with calling it a drink which the Instagram handle is AI energy drink and Having a supplements facts panel on there, so I mean my only thing with the name is that?
[00:29:06] Jacqui Brugliera: trying to find this drink in a search for AI and energy probably are going to yield something different than this drink. And there's a lot of noise around the phrase AI, which is being used on everything. Right. So I kind of wish it had like another word to it, but you know, we'll see. I would never, um, I'm sure, you know, knowing what Jack is capable of, this will at least be, it'll be interesting and it'll be something that I'm sure he'll be out there pounding the pavement. Trying to make this thing work, so good luck to him for sure. I'm sure it'll be interesting for us to cover. And I think we already, we just covered an interview with him.
[00:29:45] John Craven: You asked me how it tastes. Tastes good. Okay. Yeah.
[00:29:49] Jacqui Brugliera: I mean, these are, these are like candy, kind of candy-like approachable flavors.
[00:29:53] Ray Latif: I mean, that was the Bang approach. That's the Bang approach. Yeah. I, uh, I will say this, Jack, if you're listening or if you're anyone from your team is listening, we'd love to have you on Taste Radio. Just send us a note, rlatif at BevNET.com or ask at Taste Radio.com. Love to talk more about what you're doing with AI and how you're trying to compete in this very, very competitive set and succeed in the same way you did with Bang. So let us know. That will be interesting. Yeah.
[00:30:17] John Craven: Last but not least, TalkBack Spicy Shortbread, and I'll say it is appropriate to have giant spicy, especially on this one. Anyone interested in trying some TalkBack here? Is it really spicy? Well, okay, so the TalkBack Spicy Shortbread Chocolate and Ancho Chile? Yep. Perfect.
[00:30:39] Jacqui Brugliera: Okay. Very well matched. What do you got over there? What's the other one?
[00:30:41] John Craven: But the cumin and green chili is set your face on fire.
[00:30:45] Jacqui Brugliera: Alright, I don't want to set my face on fire. I like ancho chili.
[00:30:48] John Craven: I'll do it.
[00:30:52] Ray Latif: Here we go. Oh my god. Alright, we got the gram. This is for the gram, Mike. Do it. Here's the thing.
[00:30:59] John Craven: It's basically like you took actual cumin, opened it up, and did a shot. Here, you might need some water. With green chili, it has a lot of spice. It's really tasty. The way Mike just swallowed hard. If you could see this, folks. If you like green chili and cumin, you'll love this one. This belongs... Like on hot ones or something? No. Have you ever had white chili? You have white chili with the white beans. It's really delicious. This would be the perfect side for it. It just will spice it up even more, and you just keep going with the amazing chili flavor.
[00:31:40] Jacqui Brugliera: This chocolate and ancho chili, I think, is really delicious. It's awesome. I would say my challenge with this, and this is like, you know, it's the ancho chili, sort of like, not that spicy, but sort of builds and lingers. I don't think I could eat that many of these at once, which seems like kind of an important thing for a cookie brand. Yeah, it's described as shortbread, but I love that the ingredients. I think you can eat three of those. And I kind of wish it was in like a box or something a little fancier. As opposed to a pouch? Yeah, because it, I mean it's just, these feel kind of like they've got that dry texture that like, I feel like you're gonna end up with a lot of crumble sort of in here and I don't know, you could upscale this a little.
[00:32:21] John Craven: I mean, it's also kind of like a thicker, Crumbly or cookie. I would like that and like pure shortbread form to like yeah crispy little shortbread the flavors awesome, and I I do think you'd like that yeah, thank you, but in green chili although the thing about it is I The heat just keeps coming. All right. You know who would love this?
[00:32:45] Ferm Fatale: I would definitely love this.
[00:32:47] John Craven: All right. We should wrap up before Mike dies over here.
[00:32:48] Ferm Fatale: I want to feel the spice. Jackie would love this.
[00:32:50] Jacqui Brugliera: We're going to do last rites in a moment. Cut him off mid-cackle.
[00:32:56] SPEAKER_??: All right.
[00:32:59] Ray Latif: Alright, let's get to our featured interview for this episode. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Julie Cielo is the founder of Ferm Fatale, an ahead-of-its-time brand of fermented, non-alcoholic cocktails. Launched in 2015, Ferm Fatale was conceived as an alternative social beverage designed for health-conscious consumers and marketed as a mixer or a drink that could be served on its own. In the years that followed, the brand's positioning and packaging evolved to align with growing interest in sober living and rising demand for alcohol analogues. While Ferm Fatale built a significant online business and was carried by natural retailers in Southern California, including Erewhon, the brand faced operational and financial challenges that were difficult to overcome. Last year, Julie made the decision to shut down the company. In the following interview, Julie talks about her original vision for Ferm Fatale and the reasons behind the brand's successes, missteps, and eventual closure. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I'm honored to be sitting down with Julie Cielo, who is the founder of Ferm Fatale. Julie, great to see you.
[00:34:10] Surgeon General: Hi, Ray. It's so wonderful to be here again.
[00:34:12] Ray Latif: I know. Here in Marina del Rey at Nosh Live. We're not at BevNET Live, but we're here in the lower level of the hotel upstairs. Jennifer Garner is about to take the stage right now. It seems like maybe you've run into her a few times here in LA.
[00:34:26] Surgeon General: Yeah, it seems like she goes to the gym like I do.
[00:34:30] Ray Latif: Okay. What gym is that? So people can stalk that gym.
[00:34:33] Surgeon General: Well, we used to go to Santa Monica Equinox, but recently there's a new exclusive gym that's opened up in Venice called Youm.
[00:34:41] Ray Latif: H-U-M-E. H-U-M-E. Okay.
[00:34:46] Surgeon General: Yeah. It doesn't even have a sign on it. It's a very Venice vibe.
[00:34:49] Ray Latif: Okay. Very good to know. I like this. We're sharing details here on the podcast that we probably shouldn't be sharing. But anyway, if you go, it's fine, right? Now, people who are watching the video are probably wondering what the heck is bubbling over, about to bubble over in the center of the table here. It is the original version of your non-alcoholic kombucha brand, which was intended to replace alcoholic beverages called Ferm Fatale. As people who are familiar with BevNET probably remember, you were on stage as part of our New Beverage Showdown.
[00:35:23] Surgeon General: Was that six years ago? Nine years ago.
[00:35:25] Ray Latif: No, it couldn't be nine years ago.
[00:35:26] Surgeon General: Yes, it was 2015.
[00:35:28] Ray Latif: Oh my gosh.
[00:35:29] Surgeon General: And this is a very special product and I actually only have two bottles of it left.
[00:35:35] Ray Latif: Oh my gosh, I'm honored.
[00:35:35] Surgeon General: It's like liquid gold and I decided to open one up to share with you this morning, Ray, because this interview feels like an aged ferment in a way, after everything that's happened in the non-alcoholic space. So it's, it's a special moment for me and I wanted to share this ferment with you.
[00:35:54] Ray Latif: Well, I am honored. Thank you so much. We actually have video of opening the bottle. We were a little worried, or you were a little worried that we were going to have an explosion, but it turned out to be Very bubbly, but not explosive.
[00:36:06] Surgeon General: Yes, yes. I'm not surprised to see this level of activity in this bottle after nine years. It has not been refrigerated until last night, but it just goes to show how resilient Life is.
[00:36:24] Ray Latif: Absolutely.
[00:36:24] Surgeon General: Life can be.
[00:36:25] Ray Latif: Okay. I wasn't expecting to drink kombucha from a nine year fermented kombucha this morning, but since it's open, uh, if you could bring me a glass here, that'd be fantastic. Let's go for it. You can pour yourself one as well. Look at that. Look at that. Indeed. I got a little scobe in there as well. This could be problematic.
[00:36:44] Surgeon General: Don't be afraid to drink the scoby. It's actually really good for you.
[00:36:48] Ray Latif: Okay. Yep, that's good.
[00:36:51] Surgeon General: Do you remember in 2015, it was not fermented. There was tons of sugar in it. And I brought a bottle of tequila. Yes. And I was calling it a convertible social beverage at the time. And the reason why I was doing that is because I didn't think that people were quite ready to hear non-alcoholic beverage. At the time, I don't think society was ready for where it is now.
[00:37:19] Ray Latif: And more specifically, non-alcoholic cocktail or alcohol analog.
[00:37:24] Surgeon General: Right.
[00:37:24] Ray Latif: Yeah. So I think what firm Fittal started out as was intended to be a replacement for alcoholic beverages. And, you know, that sounds very commonplace today because we see ready to drink non-alcoholic cocktails all over the place. You go to pretty much any restaurant in the United States, they have a non-alcoholic cocktail menu now. Nine years ago, definitely not the case. Definitely not the case. So you were way ahead of the curve. Yes. Way ahead of the curve. Now let's taste this. Cheers, Julie. Welcome back.
[00:37:55] Surgeon General: Mmm. You get the alcohol in the nose right up front. Now that I'm 74 days alcohol free, I'm pretty sensitive to
[00:38:06] Ray Latif: Alcohol. Yeah. And so let's just clarify to our audience here. There is alcohol in this because it's been fermenting for nine years. Yes. So how much alcohol is in here at this point?
[00:38:16] Surgeon General: If I had to guess being a fermentation enthusiast, but not chemist, I would probably have to say somewhere between three and 4% alcohol.
[00:38:25] Ray Latif: Okay. So not too bad. It's like near beer level.
[00:38:28] Surgeon General: No, I mean, I think it tastes amazing.
[00:38:30] Ray Latif: It does. It does taste amazing. And I feel like this is something that modern consumers, especially here in Southern California, you know, certainly on the East Coast, parts of the East Coast as well, would love. Talk a bit about your interest in creating a product like this and why you thought that there was demand and white space for it out there.
[00:38:52] Surgeon General: Well, the inspiration for creating the product was inspired by a memory that I had 15 years prior. And that memory was me being at a Dave Matthews concert and sick with autoimmune disease. And I couldn't have alcohol. And I was 24 years old. All my friends were tapping a keg and I felt super left out. And when I was thinking about what do I want to do now that I've moved to California? I stepped away from a very successful private practice in Florida. What do I want to do with my life? I thought I'll create a non-alcoholic drink company to appeal to the people that can't drink because there's nothing like that out there other than a Shirley Temple. So my idea really came from a deep place of not wanting anyone else to feel left out the way that I did.
[00:39:49] Ray Latif: Yeah. Again, a lot of great ideas come from a personal need. And it turns out a lot of times that the personal need is one that's shared by other people. But in 2015, it seemed like there wasn't the kind of demand, frankly, there was not the kind of demand that we're seeing for non-alcoholic cocktails, non-alcoholic spirits today. Did you see or did you anticipate challenges in being able to scale this opportunity given that the interest was pretty small at that point?
[00:40:25] Surgeon General: I didn't think that way, and my mind doesn't really operate that way in general, being a lifelong entrepreneur and somebody that left home with $800 in their pocket on a Greyhound bus. I just had an idea, pitched it to a couple millionaires, had $150,000 in my bank account the next morning, and I didn't think about tragedy. I didn't think about what the world was ready for at the time. I made a decision to move on something that, I mean, it was the hardest venture I ever was a part of other than marriage. So I wasn't thinking about, am I going to succeed? I just assumed that I would somehow. As you know, there's the like an 80% failure rate for beverage and higher than that. And the fact that I survived as long as I did in the industry, I think is a sheer miracle in itself. And I think a lot of it is because I was one of the first brands.
[00:41:29] Ray Latif: Do you feel like Firm Fitzhall would have a better shot or would have had a better shot had you launched say last year?
[00:41:34] Surgeon General: Absolutely.
[00:41:34] Ray Latif: Yeah. Why is that?
[00:41:37] Surgeon General: Well, I had to keep raising money through a time period when people were telling me that my product was like wearing a rain jacket in the shower. I got a lot of hate in the beginning.
[00:41:48] Ray Latif: I see what you're saying. Why would you drink a cocktail unless it has alcohol in it? Exactly.
[00:41:53] Surgeon General: So I went through a hardship in the beginning of convincing people that this category was coming. I spent years in the beginning, you know, convincing people. It was only Bethnet that really saw the vision that I had in the beginning.
[00:42:11] Ray Latif: So, you know, part of this conversation for me, Julie, is about informing the audience about ways to avoid mistakes and avoid a lot of the pitfalls that you unfortunately fell into or tripped over. So I want to go over just a list of brand attributes, you know, company strategy that you think you could have tweaked or in hindsight that you think you could have done better with.
[00:42:44] Surgeon General: Oh boy, there's lots.
[00:42:45] Ray Latif: Sure. I mean, that's, that's why we're here. So let's start out by talking about your knowledge or your ability to understand the beverage industry at the outset of the brand. Did you feel like you were prepared to have conversations with beverage industry insiders, retailers, distributors, or did you feel like you really needed to know a lot more at the outset?
[00:43:09] Surgeon General: I think that my answer is twofold. because if I would have known what I know now, I wouldn't have done it. I remember Barry on the telephone saying, run, run now.
[00:43:26] Ray Latif: Who's Barry?
[00:43:27] Surgeon General: Isn't he the editor of BevNET?
[00:43:28] Ray Latif: Barry Nathanson is the publisher of BevNET magazine. A little different than an editor for sure. But I thought that was the Barry you were talking about.
[00:43:36] Surgeon General: Yes, the Barry told me to run. And I said, how rude.
[00:43:41] Ray Latif: You went Stephanie Tanner on him.
[00:43:42] Surgeon General: I did. And in hindsight, I wish I would have listened to Barry.
[00:43:47] Ray Latif: However, really, I got to back up there. I mean, it feels like you got a lot out of this journey. I did.
[00:43:55] Surgeon General: I did. I'm being facetious, but it was a struggle. I mean, I, I sacrificed a lot in order to bring the brand as far as it did. The end was tragic. I was the one that made the decision to close the company, which we'll touch on. But to answer your question in full, I would say that it was a good thing I was naive. I wouldn't have done what I did, balls out, so to speak, if I wasn't so naive. And if you recall, I didn't even know what CPG meant when I was on stage in 2015. I think I had to ask you.
[00:44:38] Ray Latif: You're not the only one though.
[00:44:39] Surgeon General: What does CPG mean?
[00:44:40] Ray Latif: You might be one of the few people to admit that, but it's true that there are a lot of entrepreneurs who don't know the lingo.
[00:44:45] Surgeon General: I had no idea what I was getting myself into.
[00:44:49] Ray Latif: Well, you got yourself into it. I guess I'll ask the question a slightly different way. Do you feel like you would have been better off operating the business if you had a better understanding of retail strategy or how to raise money? No, not at all.
[00:45:06] Surgeon General: No, I feel like the time period that I was doing what I was doing I was actually having buyers contact me. I didn't even have to do very much in the beginning because I was the only one available for them to reach out to. So it gave me an advantage.
[00:45:26] Ray Latif: brand name goes a long way. I see new products come to market and their packaging or their brand name is really attractive. And I say, Hey, I want to learn more about this. I feel like that was true with Ferm Fatale as well. There's obviously an alliterative name. There's something about it that seems kind of edgy and I wanted to learn more. But looking back, do you feel like the brand name was a strength or something that you could have adjusted?
[00:45:54] Surgeon General: I love the brand name and I would have never, I would never change it.
[00:45:59] Ray Latif: Did people understand, did they have a sense of who you were, what the brand represented? Or was it something where you said Firm for Tall and they were like, Oh, what's that?
[00:46:11] Surgeon General: People would ask me where did I come up with the name for Ferm Fatale, but it was always well received by everyone that I spoke to.
[00:46:18] Ray Latif: And obviously it's a play on Ferm Fatale, but Femme is the...
[00:46:21] Surgeon General: Right, right. I mean, it's a fermented product, live clean, drink dirty. The slogan was oftentimes confusing for some. But just like any brand new product or brand new category, so much education goes into everything. So the name just became another part of what needed to be educated upon.
[00:46:42] Ray Latif: I remember seeing your products in Erewhon, I think it was probably five years ago. And I was so happy for you. I was so proud to see your product there. You've told me though, that sometimes, and in this case, it didn't do as well as you'd hoped because why?
[00:47:00] Surgeon General: A global pandemic.
[00:47:03] Ray Latif: Yes.
[00:47:04] Surgeon General: I launched at Erewhon four months before a global pandemic hit. I was the founder at Venice Erewhon doing tastings and fucking crushing it. And then a global pandemic hit and all of a sudden I had to pivot and figure out what to do. I had a silent investor that said, should we pause the company? I thought that was a ridiculous idea because, you know, as an entrepreneur, I've learned to plow through when you need to plow through. Should I have done that? Huh?
[00:47:42] Ray Latif: Well, what's interesting is that at the outset of the pandemic, it seemed like there were a lot of people drinking more. And then a few months into the pandemic, people were starting to pull back and really think about their health and their alcohol consumption. That opportunity was a great opportunity, but you couldn't do in-store demos. What was your strategy at the time getting people to try Ferm Fatale?
[00:48:05] Surgeon General: Trying to get people to try Ferm Fatale, I just laid hard into Facebook ads and went straight into D2C and I did really well at it. I just leaned heavily into D2C and it worked. until it didn't anymore.
[00:48:18] Ray Latif: Why did it stop working?
[00:48:20] Surgeon General: Because then retail started to open back up and I was trying to figure out how to get into retail whenever I'd been spending all my time on D2C and I was a one woman show. I had no one helping me. I had zero team members and a silent investor that was dripping $1.8 million in very slowly, which kept my hands tied behind my back. That was a bad decision.
[00:48:45] Ray Latif: You've mentioned investment a few times now. The initial investment, which got you $150,000. The $1.8 million over a period I would think of eight years. That's still a lot of money to raise. And there are a lot of folks listening right now. They're saying, hey, I would just love the first $150,000, but $1.8 million, that would be huge for my business. I guess talk about your relationship with that investor and what made it work and what are some of the things that you wish you could have changed about that relationship during the years of Firm Fetel?
[00:49:20] Surgeon General: This is a very sensitive subject. People have asked me all along the way, how did you get someone to give you $1.8 million for a brand? Well, the fact of the matter is, is I mentioned my first career. She was a client of mine. I sat with her whenever her husband died of cancer and was very invested in her well-being for many, many years. This relationship I think I've had for well over 20 years. So when I came up with the idea, in a way she wanted to live vicariously through the experience, but she was not active. She did not make any decisions. Being so, so silent and having a personal relationship with her prior, the personal relationship started to bleed into the business. And I started to develop a lot of resentment towards her. And what is resentment but drinking poison in hopes that the other person dies. And it was starting to really affect me. And I didn't like the person that I became, Ray. during that time period because of the resentment that I had. And I still, if I'm honest with you, I still struggle with forgiving. But, you know, at the same time, she didn't know what she didn't know. So I try to give her and that relationship the same grace I try to give myself now, because being an entrepreneur is the deepest spiritual path that you'll ever go on. You want to find out what you're made of, become a beverage founder and do it alone. You know, but back to other mistakes that I made. So I selected a co-packer that got away with a bunch of shady things in the beginning and I let them slide in order to keep going.
[00:51:13] Ray Latif: What were some of the shady things?
[00:51:15] Surgeon General: he wouldn't put the labels on the bottles because he didn't have an adequate machine to put the labels on. And the contract said that it was his responsibility. But since he refused to do it and said he couldn't find a machine and I didn't want to change the custom glass bottles, I would fly up to Portland and sit for 16 hours a day by myself In the cold with sideways rain coming through a door with a blowtorch to heat up the glass to get the adhesive to stick. When I say I've made sacrifices for this brand, I'm not kidding at all.
[00:51:56] Ray Latif: Sometimes there's a legal recourse when a contract isn't going the way it's supposed to. Did you ever consider suing the co-backer?
[00:52:04] Surgeon General: We haven't even gotten to the juicy part of what happened with the co-packer at the end. But the answer is that, yes, we thought about it, but we knew it was going to be very challenging to find someone like him to create our live, shelf-stable, fermented product. These people are very challenging to find. He wasn't challenging to find in the beginning. I don't know if I've told you this story, but how I found him is I went into Erewhon and I stood in front of the wall of Kombucha, and I'm a big believer in manifestation, and I said to Spirit, show me my next co-packer. And I closed my eyes and I went like this. And when I opened my eyes, I was pointing at his brand. I contacted him and said, Would you co-pack? And he said yes. And the rest was history.
[00:53:00] Ray Latif: Wow.
[00:53:01] Surgeon General: But every other brand on that shelf that Erewhon at the time, you know, you don't co-pack for other people. Like you're so focused on your own brand. But this guy that I found was willing to do it.
[00:53:15] Ray Latif: Sure. If he has excess capacity.
[00:53:17] Surgeon General: He was a bit of a, you know, eccentric guy as well. It takes kind of gangster type people to do gangster type things.
[00:53:27] Ray Latif: I would say so. Yeah. Copacking can be, I think every beverage founder that I've ever met has at one point said, yes, finding the right copacker is extremely important. And everyone has a horror story or maybe not a horror story, but a story about something that went wrong.
[00:53:43] Surgeon General: Yes.
[00:53:43] Ray Latif: And in some cases, Something that goes so wrong that you lose whatever investment you put into that co-packer. So if it's a $50,000 run, something goes wrong, they're like, sorry, we're not going to run it again for you.
[00:53:55] Surgeon General: The worst is what happened during the rebrand.
[00:53:58] Ray Latif: When you went to a can.
[00:53:59] Surgeon General: When we went to a can, I raised $65,000 for the rebrand and relaunch. $65,000. So we're in the middle of it and a gasket blew in the middle of the production run and I saw the black plastic go all through the margarita.
[00:54:18] Ray Latif: And I said, this was actually in the beverages.
[00:54:22] Surgeon General: I was there for it. And I said, halt, throw it all away. Get rid of the margarita. We're done with margarita. So we filled the other three flavors about two weeks after all of my Moscow mule started to pop off like bombs in the. in the warehouse. So I knew that there was a problem with the Moscow Mule formulation. I sent it to a lab and found out some information that, again, another shady move and some lies that I had to deal with. And I ended up launching, relaunching with just two flavors. At that point, The co-packer knew that we were going to likely sue him. And he went out of business, went bankrupt. And the investor said, I don't want to go through with a lawsuit. Let's just push forward with the relaunch. Nobody knew what was going on at the time. I kept it really quiet because it was embarrassing. And I didn't know. I mean, I watch Instagram now and see these young CPG founders out there, you know, sharing every detail of their experience. God bless their souls. I wasn't that founder. I hid behind the brand in a way. I didn't share information because it didn't feel safe being the only person running the show to be that vulnerable at the time.
[00:55:48] Ray Latif: I can now, but... Yeah, you know, I wish founders would be a little bit more open about the mistakes and the problems that they're going through. But I can understand the other side because you're trying to present a good face. You're trying to present a business that is running well to investors, to retailers. Nobody wants to hear, hey, you know, we lost $65,000 during that because it makes you look, and even though you're not, and certainly not in the wrong in this case, but it might make you look incompetent. And so an investor might say, well, I'm not going to give this person any more money.
[00:56:22] Surgeon General: Yeah. I struggle with the same issue now as a healer, you know, going back to my old career and working with clients. I, you know, like, do I really want to share my childhood trauma story to somebody that I'm trying to help them heal theirs? It's, there's a fine line with, you know, how to be the professional person and, and how to be vulnerable. I think it's a, an issue that many people in a leadership role face.
[00:56:51] Ray Latif: I loved the new look. I loved the can. I loved the rebrand. I thought it was great. It sounds like at the end of the day, there wasn't enough money. There wasn't enough interest from your investment partner and trying to find another co-packer
[00:57:07] Surgeon General: Well, it's actually not true.
[00:57:08] Ray Latif: No. Okay. Go ahead. So what, what exactly happened after you decided that you had the right package, the right liquid, the right positioning to go forward with?
[00:57:18] Surgeon General: You're the first person that I've told what actually happened. So at the end, when he, he went out of business and the co-packer went out of business, took my proprietary ingredient. And we also realized that the formulation wasn't exactly what he had been telling us it was. I needed to step away. So I didn't fail. I chose to close.
[00:57:43] Ray Latif: Had you found another investor that said, Hey, we're going to give you a half a million dollars. Would you have continued?
[00:57:49] Surgeon General: If I would have had a proper team? Yes. The only thing that I really feel like I was missing was team. And if I could speak directly to any founder out there right now, I would say, do not lone wolf this. Don't. You gotta have a team in order to succeed.
[00:58:08] Ray Latif: Well, I gotta tell you, Julie, you know, I really appreciate you sharing your story. Your journey is so unique, but it's also one that I think is somewhat similar to other CPG founders who have started and then closed their brands or businesses for one reason or another. The difference between you and those founders is that you're willing to share your story. And it's so helpful. It creates, I think, a lot of solidarity among founders who are going through it right now, trying to figure out how to plug those holes, which landmines not to step on, or the ones that at least are going to be fatal for the brand. And I really think that this is going to be so helpful to anyone who is starting a business or in the first couple of years there have been this. So thank you so much for taking the time. While I'm certainly sad that Ferm Fatale is no longer on the market, I'm so happy that you had this experience as an entrepreneur and that you were introduced to us here at BevNET as a result, which is so great.
[00:59:12] Surgeon General: And it's so ironic that I did not find the capacity to become alcohol free myself until after I closed this company.
[00:59:21] Ray Latif: That is ironic.
[00:59:21] Surgeon General: Life is a very ironic thing. And I'm just so grateful for the experience and for the friends that I met along the way.
[00:59:28] Ray Latif: Thank you, Ray. Thank you so much, Julie. And once again, actually, I should, I should mention this, you know, there are people out there that are probably Like, hey, you know, can I bend Julie's ear a little bit longer? Are you open to speaking to other folks? Absolutely. What's the best way to talk to you? What's the best way to reach you?
[00:59:43] Surgeon General: Julie at Julie Cielo.
[00:59:45] Ray Latif: Very easy. All right, Julie, thank you so much again. I'm going to finish this, the rest of this drink. It's delicious. It really is delicious.
[00:59:52] Surgeon General: Thank you again, Ray.
[00:59:53] Ray Latif: Thank you. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is bevnettasteradio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening. And we'll talk to you next time.
[01:00:46] Mike Schneider: you
