[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hey folks, thanks for tuning into the Top Podcast for the food and beverage industry, Taste Radio. I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to Episode 161, which features an interview with Janie Hoffman, the founder and CEO of Mamma Chia, a leading brand of organic chia-based beverages and foods, who chronicles her remarkable journey as an entrepreneur. Tune in on Friday, May 10th for Episode 33 of our Taste Radio Insider Podcast. which includes an interview with Birgit Cameron, the managing director of Patagonia Provisions, which is the food business arm of the outdoor apparel giant. Just a reminder to our listeners, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. Of course, I'd love it if you could rate us on iTunes or your listening platform of choice. Within a year of its debut, it was clear that Mamma Chia was one of the standout brands of its time. From national distribution at Whole Foods to extensive coverage about its innovative and on-trend chia-based beverages in mainstream and trade publications, Mamma Chia was seemingly on the fast track to success. While the company continues to lead the beverage category that it helped pioneer, and has evolved into a platform brand that also markets snacks and other foods, there have been some missteps, including a few that nearly caused its demise, according to founder and CEO Janie Hoffman. In the following interview, I spoke with Janie about the origins of her brand and how she created a foundation for its rapid ascent. She also discussed the importance of a supportive professional network and the painful lesson about hiring for experience versus cultural fit. Janie also explained her belief that, quote, you can't teach attitude and why everyday happiness starts with a joyful spirit. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. I'm here in Carlsbad, California at the headquarters of Mamma Chia. Sitting in front of me is the one and only founder and CEO of Mamma Chia. That's Janie Hoffman. Janie, so great to see you.
[00:02:03] Janie Hoffman: Oh, Ray, it's always great to see you. Thank you so much. It seems like we've grown up together.
[00:02:07] Ray Latif: You know, I was actually going to say that because you were one of the very first entrepreneurs that I talked to when I started at BevNET way back in 2011.
[00:02:15] Janie Hoffman: Wow.
[00:02:16] Ray Latif: And I know you were only two years into the beverage industry at that point.
[00:02:19] Janie Hoffman: Barely. Actually, I mean, we didn't even launch product until October of 2010. So I mean, really, it was 2011 was the year of our coming out.
[00:02:30] Ray Latif: It's amazing. And yeah, growing up together is I think the right phrase to use there. So much has changed with your company. You've developed, you've grown, you yourself as an entrepreneur. Me, I'm pretty much the same reporter I've always been.
[00:02:45] Janie Hoffman: No, everything that you folks have done has just been such a service to the community. I absolutely have. loved how BevNET and Nosh and Taste Radio and all of it has come to life. It's fantastic. I love referring entrepreneurs to all the resources that you guys have. So thank you for being of service.
[00:03:03] Ray Latif: Thank you so much for saying that. And you yourself are so giving as an entrepreneur and just generally as a person. Thank you very much for these avocados that you picked out of your garden and gave to me before we got on the mic. I sincerely appreciate that and can't wait to pop those open.
[00:03:19] Janie Hoffman: Yeah, we just had our harvest today on our avocado farm. So yeah, lucky day for you, right?
[00:03:25] Ray Latif: Indeed it is. So getting back to that first year, it's interesting looking back what your mission was at the time, what your goals were for that first year at the time. And I'm interested to hear, you know, as an early stage entrepreneur, what did you want to do that first year? And, you know, how did you accomplish it? What did you want to get out of those first 12 months?
[00:03:45] Janie Hoffman: Well, we always wanted to be a national brand. We knew that. And we also wanted there to be more organic chia in the world. So when I started Mamma Chia, there was very, very little organic chia, but we also wanted to take our time. I think that I had actually heard the phrase, you know, an inch wide and a mile deep and hearing that from you folks and really believing that. And, you know, it was a very different environment back in in 2011. I mean, we're an organic company, and we were highly functional beverage, very innovative, there wasn't anything like us. And the natural channel is really where we thought we needed to be and and to go an inch wide in that in there and and a mile deep. And, and we did that. But you know, it's a changing environment now. But that was our goal. And in that first year, we were national with Whole Foods within our first year of doing business.
[00:04:42] Ray Latif: That's incredible. There's not too many companies or brands that can accomplish that. So kudos on that.
[00:04:48] Janie Hoffman: It was really interesting, though, because back in the day, that was in Whole Foods actually wanted us to go national with them. And they asked us to do that within our first 60 days. And quite honestly, we did not have the bandwidth to make that happen. That was back in the day when I was doing all my own demos and we were just learning what we needed to learn and we felt that it was important to open region by region by region and give it a lot of attention. But we did, but that was also an interesting year in 2011. We had almost every major conventional retailer approach us and want us to come on their shelves and we had to say no. But again, it was a different day. I mean, now you go into conventional retailers and They have beautiful sets of organic and functional and what used to be called more new agey products and it's fantastic, but that's not what it was like back then. So a lot of say no back in the day.
[00:05:45] Ray Latif: How did you know which retailers to say no to? How did you know your limitations? Because for every national retailer out there, that sounds like a huge opportunity. But if you can't fill those orders, well, that's a pretty tragic mistake early on.
[00:05:59] Janie Hoffman: Right. And there was a limited supply of organic chia. And we were committed to be an organic certified company. We knew, again, that the natural channel is where we really needed to go very deep. And we maintain relationships with those conventional retailers. And I just personally asked them to give us more time, allow us to get more experience in the space, that we were going to be a better partner for them, that also their consumers were going to be growing up. And keep in mind, organic, it wasn't then what it is today. And now people understand the power of organic and why it's so important to us and to the planet.
[00:06:40] Ray Latif: There was a limited supply of organic chia and prior to launching the brand, you had been a big proponent of organic farming and organic farming of chia. What drove your interest in the ingredient?
[00:06:51] Janie Hoffman: So Chia truly changed my life, completely changed my life. I had struggled with autoimmune disorders for two decades, some very serious ones that are traditionally treated with chemotherapy and steroids. And I did not have any relief with those, but I did have some relief with diet. specifically organic, but I still struggled with a lot of muscle weakness, a lot of rash and all of that and it wasn't until chia seeds came into my life that it was a total game changer. Not only did I go into complete remission, I don't even test positive for any of these. And I had a list, there were over a dozen, it's called an overlap syndrome when you get one after another after another, but lupus and scleroderma and dermatomyositis and fibromyalgia and the list goes on and on. And it was having that happen and knowing that Chia was the only thing that was added to my diet and my regimen that was different. I just knew that I needed to get this out there. I didn't at that time know it was going to be in the form of a brand, but that's what it ended up being. So I totally changed my life and it changed my husband Lance's life too. He had chronic acid reflux and he was on some serious drugs that had proven to cause osteoporosis and a lot of yucky stuff. And once I started getting him to throw back a tablespoon of chia seeds every morning, he hasn't had any acid reflux since then. So it was a game changer for both of us. And I knew that my soul's purpose was to help there to become more organic chia in the world.
[00:08:29] Ray Latif: So what is chia? I mean, what makes it this amazing, magical superfood?
[00:08:33] Janie Hoffman: So I know that you hear this, but it truly, truly is the most nutrient-rich food on our planet. It has eight times more omega-3 than salmon. I mean, one bottle of Mamma Chia has 2,500 milligrams of omega-3. That's more than six ounces of salmon. I mean, that's insane. Also protein, 50% more protein than soybeans. And it's a complete protein, meaning it has all the amino acids and all of that and fiber, 25% more fiber than flaxseed and magnesium and calcium and potassium and the list goes on and on and on and it's completely bioavailable. So you don't need to grind it, it doesn't have a hard shell that you can't process and it has fabulous fiber in it. It's really truly if anything was a superfood, it's a superfood, it is. And because the flavor profile is very mild, you can put it into anything.
[00:09:30] Ray Latif: You have put it into a lot of different things.
[00:09:33] Janie Hoffman: We have and more to come. We've put it in some things that we didn't necessarily have the marketing dollars to support once they got out there. And then now we're in the process where we're coming out with a lot more innovation here in 2019. And we have a very deep pipeline of innovation for 2020.
[00:09:50] Ray Latif: some of the things I see on your desk, but we can't talk about right now. So stay tuned, listeners. It's interesting, when you talked about not knowing you were going to start a chia brand, what were you doing before you were promoting organic farming of chia and obviously before starting Mamma Chia? And how did you evaluate this opportunity to start a brand?
[00:10:10] Janie Hoffman: So I had been teaching meditation and mindfulness and spiritual studies for over a decade, but I was definitely a huge supporter of local and organic and those are my peeps and those are my roots.
[00:10:24] Ray Latif: And this was here in Southern California?
[00:10:26] Janie Hoffman: Yes. in Southern California and I was actually a founding member of Slow Money, and Slow Money is an amazing organization and there's chapters nationally and you can check them out too, but that was all before starting Mamma Chia. When I talked to my very first farmer that was a chia farmer, they wanted to know how many metric tons of chia I was going to buy. And I literally said, how much is a metric ton? Well, it's 2200 pounds. So I realized that there was going to, you know, how do you move that much? How do you actually get more and more organic chia in the world? I'm happy to say that we continue to work with growers that were with us in the very, very beginning. And chia was originally in Mexico and Guatemala area, that's where it was born. Now there's gorgeous organic chia that is grown in North America, you know, I have to remind people that Mexico is part of North America, and Central America and South America. And so we work with growers in all those places, so if Mother Nature does a little wacky thing. And now I'm going to go back to your question, you said why a brand, I think?
[00:11:36] Mamma Chia: Yes.
[00:11:37] Janie Hoffman: So really it was how do we get the message out about chia? and how can we do this in the most effective way. And my chia beverages were a huge hit with my friends and family and I had a lot of girlfriends that were becoming certified yoga teachers and so I was powering them in their classes with my chia beverages. And then we have our friends who had the pickiest children. back in the day that would eat nothing. And they loved all of my chia beverages and all of my chia snacks and all of that. And I thought, okay, this is if even the picky Grossman kids like this, I'm on to something here. And I think that there's something we could do. But also, when I did decide to create a brand, we went and we reached out to professional marketing folks, Townsend advisors, and Jackie Townsend is a superstar. And she's local to us here in San Diego. And We did a lot of sampling and a lot of testing. We took our beverages out in a mix of folks and lots of demographics and flavor profiles and packaging and messaging. And then Jackie Townsend through Townsend Advisors also offers an in-depth branding workshop to find out what the heart and soul of your branding is and how do you hone that messaging and make sure that you're able to communicate that. clearly and so we reach out to professionals and we brought them on Brad Avery early.
[00:13:03] Ray Latif: Hiring marketing consultants doesn't sound like the most inexpensive thing in the world. Was all this self-funded for a time?
[00:13:10] Janie Hoffman: It was. It was all self-funded and you know, I will tell you, I did have, because they are female entrepreneurs, we were also able to do some things that were like down and dirty. Like I mean, you know, Jackie at Townsend Advisors would say, Okay, so how much of this information needs to be qualified with lots and lots of charts or how how much of this can we just do down and dirty and make sure that we hit 150 consumers and we're going to be able to give you this or that, you know, something like that. I mean, so, you know, I mean, she would set up shop and her team at a Starbucks and be there for eight hours or in a local natural food store and be there and getting feedback and capturing that, that information. And then, and we did a lot of it on our own as well, but it was worth it. And I think that even then, when we went to go find packaging folks, You know, we went to a company that we wanted a very distinct logo. We wanted something that could become iconic. And we had this big vision. And so we invested heavily in those things in the very beginning. And then they've served us very well, you know, since then.
[00:14:20] Ray Latif: Your packaging has gone through a mild refresh, but for the most part, I mean, the primary elements are still the same as they always have been.
[00:14:26] Janie Hoffman: Yeah, we have our Aztec Chia Goddess. She's still rocking it. And our tagline from the very beginning was seed your soul. And and so that has has maintained we're continuing to evolve. We actually are now in the process of interviewing a whole new slew of packaging designers and and we're going to continue to evolve all of our packaging. So that's something that you're always doing, definitely. But as far as those core ingredients of being authentic, we try to maintain those. So we know who we are and we just want to make sure that when we do bring folks to us that are going to be part of the Mamma Chia family, that they understand what our mission is and what our values are and continue to evolve with us.
[00:15:12] Ray Latif: So if there's a packaging expert who's listening right now, should they be knocking on your door?
[00:15:16] Janie Hoffman: they can knock on Juliet Blake's door. She's right next door. Yeah. And Juliet has, has been with the brand for gosh, well over five years. She definitely embodies the brand. She lives the brand. Yeah. We, I mean, I, I can't say enough about Juliet. I mean, there's so many beautiful people on the mom at here As Mamma Chia and, and in our family and we love them dearly. And Juliet is one of those amazing, beautiful souls.
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[00:16:23] Ray Latif: With all the data that you collected and all the marketing analysis that you did about the opportunity for a Chia brand, was a lot of that for investor decks, retail presentations? What did you do with that data?
[00:16:36] Janie Hoffman: So we've had different data at different times. What I spoke about before with the branding workshop and also the accessibility and the positioning and all of that, that was to find out if I should move forward with this. I wanted to know Do I have something here? And also trying to figure out how much money am I going to need to raise to make this happen? Because we were not in a position that we were going to be able to be continued to be self funded. So I did use that information. And I'll tell you, I was glad I had all of that early information too, because I My very, very, very first retailer call was with an icon in the industry, Diane Snyder. She was the head of purchasing for Whole Foods Market in their South Pacific region. And boy, she was a tough cookie. I was told I was going to be lucky if I had five minutes with her. She grilled me for an hour. And I was so glad I had all of that marketing behind me. I mean, I had done all of my homework so I could tell her how it tested on the East Coast and the West Coast and you know, who that consumer was and what we were going for. And, you know, I had even done my research on what DSD distributors were already pre-approved, and I really wanted to go with DSD. And at the end of that one hour, a session with Diane at Whole Foods, she said, you're not going through DSD, you're going to go through UNFI. And so all of a sudden we, you know, we were thrown into UNFI and, and thank goodness we were able to, and for folks that don't know, it's very expensive to go through UNFI. And it's very expensive to go through DSD too, but you need to know where all those fees are and costs are and what that structure looks like. And and needing to know all of that. And and, you know, thank goodness we had I at that point, walking into that room, I had people around me that were able to help me with that. But it also was hard when I had to go back to Whole Foods within, you know, 60 days when they wanted me to go national and say, we financially can't make that happen. You know, we don't have the bandwidth to make that happen. But that was a great story. I was then being able to take that information and present it to investors with all of our marketing and also having, you know, a key retailer coming on board and wanting to go national. So that helped with the fundraising. And then we've done other research since then. I mean, we've had ANU studies. since then, you know, attitude and usage studies that have been very helpful to find out where Mamma Chia has permission to go into, what other categories, you know, who really is our consumers, you know, and how often are they purchasing and what is that usage. And it's been great. And we've been able to use that in our sales deck with our retailers. We've also been able to use that, you know, with investors, what Mamma Chia is fortunate we haven't, we haven't done an equity raise in over five years. So we're, we're grateful about that. But all of that stuff is, you know, don't do it just to do it. I mean, do it so that you can really make sure you're utilizing it in every arena of your business.
[00:19:48] Ray Latif: Speaking of your earliest investors, Seth Goldman, an investor and advisor almost from the beginning, a well-known figure, an icon, so to speak, in the food and beverage industry, one of the co-founders of Honest Tea, now heavily involved with Beyond Meat. How do you get someone like that on your side? How do you get them involved, especially at a very early stage like you were at?
[00:20:10] Janie Hoffman: Oh, gosh, we were so blessed and so lucky to get Seth. And we had mutual friends because I do have ties that are in that are social and environmental, very forward leaning. We had the same circles. And I was grateful for that. Social Venture Network, which is now Social Venture Circle has been renamed. was a great resource for me to meet folks like Seth. But I actually met them through social venture friends. But I was lucky Seth was a believer in Chia. He actually knew about Chia. And even though I've actually never met his partner, Barry, Barry was a big believer in Chia. And he actually had wanted to do a Chia beverage with with honesty back in the day. And so I got to hear some of that story. And, and, yeah, we were I was able to meet Seth and He was very instrumental in helping me to make sure that we were surrounded by some A quality vendors for packaging and things like that. And he was able to also help, you know, our first round was a $2 million round. And we had the potential to be very oversubscribed. We had folks that wanted to take the whole round and then some, and we could have raised millions more above that. And Seth was great. He said, you know what? 15% oversubscribed, that's it. Don't bring in any more money that you need. Stay as lean as you possibly can. Use the money wisely. You know, there were always gems like that, that Seth, it took me a while to embody some of the great wisdom that he shared with me. I didn't do so well on some of it, but it was luck, a lot of it. But he was a believer. He understood the nutritional powerhouse of chia, and it was totally something new. We were pioneering a whole new category. So yeah.
[00:21:59] Ray Latif: When did you start to realize that the brand was taking off, that you were gaining traction and success, not just getting into retailers and getting distribution, but that consumers were actually buying the products and loving it?
[00:22:12] Janie Hoffman: You know, it was early on, I think that Whole Foods wanting to bring us in nationally so quickly having, again, you know, we were only in 50 stores in October of 2010. And then by the end of 2011, we were in thousands of stores. And we also, even in 2011, we had the big box guys come after us. And we knew we couldn't play in that arena. That just wasn't where we needed to be at that time. So we knew just because the demand was there, the retailers were reaching out to us. I mean, I actually had UNFI call within the first 90 days and said, we've completed all of your national paperwork for you. And I was like, no, no, no, no, we're not going national.
[00:22:58] Ray Latif: What does that mean, completed all the paperwork for you?
[00:22:59] Janie Hoffman: So it means that they had opened up every warehouse for that distributor. And it was because Whole Foods was knocking on their door saying, open it up. And we said, no, no, no, we're not doing that. And also, we want to do our own paperwork. We didn't want to sign up for programs that maybe we couldn't afford with some of the distributors and everything. So again, we were saying no. But we knew we were on to something, and we wanted to be mindful. And we were fortunate that we were able to attract some really wonderful entrepreneurial employees, you know, pretty early on. So we got really lucky really fast.
[00:23:36] Ray Latif: That word again, I don't know how many times we've talked about luck on Taste Radio. How do you define luck?
[00:23:43] Janie Hoffman: I mean, I think that, you know, when they say, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, I think that holds true with life in general. And we were prepared, but then you're never 100% prepared. That's the other kind of thing is that we also got lucky in other things where we were banging on doors and some doors didn't open and look in hindsight, we're grateful that those didn't happen. So I think that luck, a lot of it is, There's so much that's beyond our control that we just don't know. I mean, life truly is a mystery. And at the same time, there is a lot of preparation that goes into this. I mean, we work really, really hard here As Mamma Gia, and we continue to, and we're continuing to look at where we need to go next. And I think that complacency is no place that anybody wants to be. And you want to be surrounded by hard workers too, and somebody that shares the vision and where we're going. So there's no doubt about it. I mean, I look back and I think of some of the people that I met at a slow money conference or a social venture network conference or a certified B Corp conference or a 1% for the Planet conference. Those are things that were genuine and part of not only my soul, but the soul of the company. And so it made sense that like-minded souls were going to be there. So, you know, did I get lucky that some of those people were in the room and they ended up becoming huge supporters of the brand? Yes and no. I mean, call it what you will. I think that I can also be as airy-fairy to say that there is definitely divine intervention that happened at different places and different times. And I can see it in every arena that Mama Xi has played in.
[00:25:28] Ray Latif: And dare I say, you might have met some of those folks at a BevNET live conference or a Nosh live conference.
[00:25:33] Janie Hoffman: Indeed. And I will say that, though. I mean, I highly recommend the first thing with food and beverage folks when they come to me, are you on BevNET or Nosh? I mean, I tell them that resource immediately. I beg them to go to a conference. I'll tell them that they'll never meet as many people as they will in those few days. Ever, they won't. I mean, the caliber of the folks that you guys bring and the generosity of the folks that you guys have there too, that they're willing to share. So no doubt about it. And to be honest with you, I think that I didn't, what's different with you folks, especially in beverage and food, is that you are more leaning towards the organic and it isn't the conventional side. And so it does attract somebody that really has a genuine interest in making the world a better place. That can't be said about every one of the industry functions that I've been to in the world of food and beverage. It just can't.
[00:26:27] Ray Latif: I sincerely appreciate that, Jeannie. Thank you so much. I know our CMO, Mike, is going to love this. Going back to what you said about hard work, you're a very hardworking organization, all moving in the same direction. Does hard work, though, mean, you know, pressing the gas all the time? Or does hard work sometimes mean knowing when to pull back on the reins?
[00:26:47] Janie Hoffman: Yes, I mean, we put some innovation out there too soon that we weren't able to support with the marketing dollars that that it needed. And then we left that innovation out there in the marketplace way too long. So and a lot of that was bad hires on my part. And there were three really rough years where I think that I honestly thought that I could just muscle my way and and push and push and push and, and I really wasn't taking the pulse of what was going on. So I don't know, I don't think that really answered your question, as far as, you know, working really hard. I can share with you that later this month, I'm going to be at a seven day silent meditation retreat, you know, and, and so that will be my time where, where I'm going to, uh, go deeper and, and go into that, that silence and that stillness and, and rest more in my true nature so that when I come back that I'll be more aligned and, and my, hopefully my intuition will be flowing. And, and I also have a team where I know that they're going to be able to to do what needs to be done. And there were many years where I didn't go on retreats. I mean, that retreats and silent meditation retreats were always a part of my life for decades. And then I had a break where there was a long, long period of time. I don't even know how many years, more than five years where I didn't go on a retreat because I simply didn't have the team around me that could have maybe done what needed to be done. But we do now. So maybe that speaks more to that balance.
[00:28:16] Ray Latif: Well, it sounds like some of the hard work that you're talking about is also working on yourself. And, you know, mental health is something that isn't talked about enough, I think, in this industry and really making sure that you are in a place where you can succeed as much as your brand or the company you're working with.
[00:28:33] Janie Hoffman: I think I was actually on a BevNET stage one time when I did say to find a good therapist. And I said that twice. I think that was my two helpful hints.
[00:28:41] Ray Latif: Yeah, I recall that for sure. In those cases where those hires didn't work out, did you hire because of experience versus cultural fit? And was that the problem?
[00:28:53] Janie Hoffman: absolutely the problem. It totally 100% was the problem. We had gotten to a place where I thought we needed to get to that next step. And I valued experience over cultural fit. And they were disastrous. They really were. It's a miracle the company survived it to be honest with you. I mean, it was that's how damaging those hires were. So now we've gone back to what we did in the very beginning, which we take a really long time to hire people and we have multiple, multiple interviews and multiple different type of situations. Everyone As Mamma Chia gets a chance to interview them multiple times and they have to have the same values. I mean they want, they need to want to make the world a better place. They have to believe in organic. They need to believe in giving back every step of the way and really live that. And so, yeah, those were hard lessons. And I thought that I could have this microcosm of like this little United Nations and that we could have this incredible diversity that would allow for all schools of thoughts to come together and be something greater. It just didn't work when it came to the fundamentals. And a lot of that stuff was hidden from me. They didn't come out and say, well, I really don't believe in organics. They would just come out later. We actually had hired somebody who said, you know, I don't really like the word soul. Oh my gosh, you know, our tagline is seed your soul. I mean, we are an incredibly soulful company. Our part of our mission statement is to honor and uplift both the soul of humanity and the soul of the planet. I mean, again, this was, you know, shame on me because I was looking at a resume where they had, you know, built companies and had an incredible success, but they truly were not in alignment with the heart and soul of Mamma Chia.
[00:30:47] Ray Latif: When you're hiring now, are you looking for folks with less experience and trying to build them and promote from within? Is that part of your hiring approach at this point?
[00:30:56] Janie Hoffman: It's mixed. I can't say that that is entirely the case. We still are looking for somebody that has the experience and skill set, but you can't teach attitude. But we definitely make sure that they are going to fit into our culture and we're very tight knit here. So, you know, we're not a huge company and we do have a mission and it is a social and environmental mission that is part of who we are. But they also have to be, you know, smart cookies. And we also try to do more with less resources. So they have to have that entrepreneurial spirit. We like to say now that we're, you know, we're a 10 year old startup. And so not everybody excels in that format. So we like to have folks that maybe have worked with very large multinational, but have also had experience with startups as well. And that's usually a good fit, but they also just have to get along. I mean, you see, most of our workspace here is open space and we're a pretty tight-knit group.
[00:32:00] Ray Latif: Given that you're a 10-year-old startup and the company has evolved and grown so much since 2010, how has your role evolved? You know, how do you operate as a CEO these days? And I got to think it's changed pretty dramatically since back in the day.
[00:32:15] Janie Hoffman: Well, it has changed. I'm thankful that the biggest change and the one that I'm still doing absolute backflips on and one of the best hires I've made is we brought on a president in January. And Sam Blankenship is a fantastic addition. And he has a wealth of knowledge. He also is willing to roll up his sleeves and do whatever it takes. And so I've been enjoying going on sales calls with him to our major retailers and We have a lot of innovation that's going on. And he's a great leader. And he's one of those guys where we literally interviewed him for well over six months before we hired him. And everyone got to know Sam intimately. I mean, we really did. We had him in every kind of situation you can imagine. And it was a unanimous decision to offer Sam the role as president.
[00:33:15] Ray Latif: When you say unanimous, who was involved in that decision?
[00:33:17] Janie Hoffman: Every single employee of Mamma Chia. Every single employee. So yeah, it was fantastic.
[00:33:24] Ray Latif: That's amazing. There he is coming in.
[00:33:27] Janie Hoffman: Yep.
[00:33:28] Ray Latif: Very cool. So what spurred the decision to hire a president?
[00:33:32] Janie Hoffman: Well, Mamma Chia has grown up a lot and we really needed a veteran in the industry that could continue to help us to grow. And again, you know, my background, I was teaching meditation and spiritual studies. And so I, you know, I really needed somebody that was incredibly seasoned and that had relationships. I love that, you know, Sam, You know, he knows all of, not all, but I mean, he knows so many of the players. And we also needed to take a look at every arena and every aspect of Mamma Chia. So our operations, our finance, our sales, all of it. And we did a pretty major reorganization. And we made sure that we have the right people in the company as we're moving. And I need a seasoned partner to help me to take Mamma Chia to the next level. So I had tried to make those hires in the past, and those were some of the disastrous ones when I told you that they just culturally were not a fit. And, um, you know, Sam and I are on the same page. We make a really, really good team. You know, there isn't a day that goes by that we aren't, you know, continuously talking and brainstorming and, and working hard and making it happen.
[00:34:45] Ray Latif: And I know you've always been a competitive person. Just some of the things we've talked about over the years.
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[00:36:02] Ray Latif: Would you describe yourself as a competitive person?
[00:36:03] Janie Hoffman: You know, I look at competition a little bit differently. I think that most like I really believe in win-win. I really do. And I'm sure as probably most female entrepreneurs will tell you that they have complete access to me. I mean, I'm here to cheer on. entrepreneurs and to give them all the support that they can. And I get that some folks think that shelf space and stomach space and all that kind of stuff. And I think that if, if you guys continue to focus on making your own brand, the best that it can possibly be, there's going to be a reason for being there. And so when I think of competition, I think most people think that somebody wins and somebody loses. And I don't believe that. I mean, just even look at now what we're seeing, we're seeing that for Mamma Chia and how do you see me as being competitive? I mean, Obviously, I want us all to win, but I don't think that that necessarily needs to be at the expense. Like I see more organic in the world as being a win. You know, I see folks that like when I was at, you know, here we were at 2019 Expo West, And I loved walking around and that there were so many brands, big and small, that had chia in their products. I mean, it was everywhere I turned, somebody was adding chia to their products. And I love that. I love that chia continues to be this nutrient-rich ingredient that people want to add to their products. So I'm high-fiving them. I really want them to succeed.
[00:37:31] Ray Latif: Yeah, and when I think about the word competitive, I think about, say, 2012, 13, when it seemed like everyone was jumping into the chia pool. Everyone had a chia skew, or folks were coming out with new chia brands, beverage and food. And I recall Mamma Chia really trying to stay on top of that category as the leader, as the trendsetter, as the trailblazer. How do you do that? How do you maintain that focus?
[00:38:01] Janie Hoffman: again, you can't rest on your laurels and we haven't always done a great job. I mean, like I said, there were a few years that were a little bit rough, but we've kept our eye on the prize and the prize for us is being a beloved global brand with organic chia at the heart and soul of it. And so, there was a lot of chia sprinkling going on back then that wasn't really delivering on the nutritional component that chia has to offer. But again, I actually am still supportive. I was actually disappointed when I learned recently last year that one of the folks is no longer in business. And I was rooting for her. And somebody could have said, well, gosh, they were a direct competitor. But I didn't really see it that way. Again, I think that, especially folks that are putting out organic products, I'm not a real big fan of non-organic chia, only because I know what it does to the growers and the farmers that are on that land and working that, but also what it does to Mother Earth as well.
[00:39:05] Ray Latif: Around that same time, as I mentioned, 2012, 2013, there was a lot of mainstream media articles written about chia, the power of chia, the superfood. It seemed it was at the height of interest in trade and consumer. Then there seemed to be a little bit of a lull, which I think, and this is just me talking and my perspective on it, where today you're seeing CBD overload, everything CBD. You go to Expo West and it's just like, good Lord. Did you feel like there was a point where there was a little bit too much overexposure for Chia and people promoting it and using it in ways that were detrimental to the development of the category?
[00:39:43] Janie Hoffman: You know, honestly, not really. I mean, I think that there's so many health benefits with Chia that I think now we're just now having an awareness of what some of those benefits were. I think that back then, maybe more people were becoming introduced to Chia, but now when I'm talking to consumers and to retailers, they're able to know that, oh, Chia is good for you because it's high in omega-3, fiber and protein. And of course there's a million other things, antioxidants and all of that, but now that there is this connection to omega-3 and protein and fiber and antioxidants that there's an awareness now because of that explosion. So now I think what we're going to find is that we're just going to be able to go and build on that awareness and that's what's happening. And we're grateful that a lot of the major retailers have shared with us their loyalty data. And we know that Mamma Chia is one of those brands that if we're not on shelf, if we're not in that beverage case, or if we're not on that shelf where our chia squeeze is, that that consumer is going to walk away, that they're not going to pivot and buy something else. And that high, high loyalty index is very, very important. So I think again, being authentic and staying true, that we're going to keep continuing. You know, I think one of the things that we were talking about before the interview is look out what a beautiful job Guayaquil has done. with pioneering Herba Mate. And now, I mean, how long have they been at it now? I think two decades, right? And it's a sea of yellow wherever you look with Guayaquil's Herba Mate. And people know that it's a beautiful form of natural energy and caffeine. And, you know, it's one of the reasons why we also are energy beverages. and our new energy squeezes have Aromate in them. And we can thank the Guayaquis of the world, you know, well, actually not the, just Guayaqui, for helping to pioneer that.
[00:41:51] Ray Latif: At this point, Guayaquil is almost synonymous with Yerba Mate. Do you see that as being a primary goal or at least a goal of Mamma Chia is to be synonymous with Chia? I mean, Chia is already in your name, so.
[00:42:01] Janie Hoffman: Yeah, absolutely. I think that we're the leaders. We are committed to continuing to be forward leaning in the world of Chia. And yeah, definitely.
[00:42:12] Ray Latif: So big picture, I got to think given the success and the growth of the company that there have been some offers to buy it.
[00:42:20] Janie Hoffman: There have.
[00:42:22] Ray Latif: Clearly you have not taken those offers. Why have you turned them down?
[00:42:26] Janie Hoffman: Um, for various reasons, um, I, you know, again, going back to making sure that it was the right fit and at the right time. And we're very open to strategic partnerships with, with the right people. And we continue to have discussions and, and get to know people out there in the world. There's so much more for Mamma Chia to do. We really feel like we've just begun, you know, we have a very, very low ACV. I mean, we're and still a relatively low awareness, but we know that our consumer base is so loyal. So as we move into this next phase, we are looking to bring more and more folks into the franchise with our various offerings. And so We think that the right partners are out there for us when the time is right. But right now, we're really just focusing on building a beautiful, beloved global brand and doing the very best job we can and offering not only the most nutritious, but the most delicious. And that's something that I think that we've done really well is had really great tasting and really good for you products.
[00:43:34] Ray Latif: Jeannie, it feels like every time I sit down with you or talk to you, you smile about 10 or 15 times during our conversation. Maybe it's just because you're talking to me. There you go. Walk myself into that one. But no, you seem like a very happy, positive person and every experience that I've had with you. And happiness can sometimes be a challenge. It's, you know, not everyone finds time to smile or laugh during the day. What keeps you happy? How do you stay positive every single day? And maybe you don't, but it seems like you do.
[00:44:10] Janie Hoffman: Well, I think, I mean, all of us are human and we all have positive and negative emotions and they come and go, just like positive and negative thoughts come and go. But I think that, you know, the more and more we do rest in our true nature, I think that's where joy is found. So I think there's a difference between having a joyful spirit and just having the passing coming and goings of something being happy or not happy. And I try not to overly attach to those emotions that are all just part of being human and focus on how can I be of service and where does that lie? Where can I best serve? I think that's what brings the most joy. And to be honest with you, I'm not just saying this, but it brings joy to see what you folks have been able to do for our community. I mean, it really is a huge give back that you give. And I'm also grateful that I have an opportunity to talk to a lot of entrepreneurs and be Honest Tea let them know where I really messed up and the things that we did do right. One of the things that is part of my, I guess, spiritual hygiene, if you want to say, is also I like to reread every year Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. And I think that one of the key takeaways of that book is that regardless of whatever circumstances are going on in our life, that we always have the ability to change our attitude and to choose our attitude in any given set of circumstances. So there's a bigger purpose to life than kind of what it looks like on the surface.
[00:45:45] Ray Latif: You said the phrase joyful spirit, which I love. How do you feed that spirit, you personally, and how can people do that in their everyday lives?
[00:45:53] Janie Hoffman: Well, I think being kind and compassionate to our own human nature and to other humans is a good place to begin. Kindness and compassion and empathy for ourselves and to others. And meditation has been a big part of my life. And also knowing that we all truly, I think at our core, really want to do something positive and good in the world. And so if you help to empower other people to do that, to find out what their soul's purpose is and how you can help make that realization for them is always a good thing.
[00:46:29] Ray Latif: That was really well said, Janie. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me. As I mentioned, you know, this is going on eight years, we've known each other and I always feel better after talking to you. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I hope we can continue to talk and continue to have these conversations for many years to come.
[00:46:48] Janie Hoffman: Thank you so much, Ray.
[00:46:49] Ray Latif: All right. That brings us to the end of episode 161. Thank you for listening, and thanks to our guest, Janie Hoffman. You can catch both Taste Radio and Taste Radio Insider on Taste Radio.com, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, SoundCloud, and Spotify. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
[00:47:29] Whole Foods: Hello, I am Melissa Traverse here for the Taste Radio podcast, talking about some of the biggest tension points that CPG brands and founders face when they're scaling a brand, and those are financial accounting and inventory management. I am joined by Matt Lynn, inventory accounting guru from Belay Solutions, and he is going to shed some light on all of this that is going to help everybody out quite a bit. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:47:59] New York: Thank you for having us, Melissa. It's great to be out here at Expo West and it's great to sit down and be able to chat this because it's kind of a passion project of ours, working mainly with CPG brands and hoping to help them scale.
[00:48:10] Whole Foods: It's been such a pleasure chatting with you and the team and learning all about what you do over there at Belay Solutions. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what your role is and the kinds of solutions that Belay gives to CPG brands and founders?
[00:48:26] New York: Yeah, absolutely. My role with Belay, I'm actually our inventory accounting manager. I run our inventory department, so we work with CPG brands, taking them from spreadsheets, putting them on inventory management systems, and really helping connect their tech stack between their sales online marketplaces to that inventory management system, even down to their financial systems like QuickBooks. Belay overall is kind of an outsourced accounting firm. And with that, we're helping teams. We have different levels with bookkeeping, controller level work, even high level into CFO type items. So we really help those brands in any way that they need financially. And then I just have a subset of a department where we're really just laser focused on inventory.
[00:49:09] Whole Foods: It's certainly a complex topic and there are plenty of places to go wrong. Let's start by going right and start super simple. Can you tell us what some of the biggest red flags are that would help a founder understand or, you know, the person running a brand understand that it really is time to get some help with some of these areas?
[00:49:29] New York: Yeah, absolutely. I think some of the early red flags is just everything is chaos. So when they're looking in their financial software, maybe they don't really have an accounting background and they're kind of just piecing it together and doing their best. And what they'll see is that reconciliations take forever, if they even happen. They have a lot of transactions that don't get coded or they just put them into placeholders to just get rid of it so it's not an eyesore. they'll notice they have revenue but no cash or they notice that they have a good amount of cash but their blind spot is really seeing the vendor invoices that are sitting there just needing to be paid and so they just lack that clarity that's going to really be around the corner.
[00:50:06] Whole Foods: You know, you were talking about one of the red flags that comes up that I think makes so much sense. When somebody asks you what your numbers are and you can't come up with the right number, that's a big problem because that's something that you really should be able to share with decision makers who, you know, you're ideally looking to do business with. What should you be able to call up at a moment's notice?
[00:50:31] New York: Really at any time, you should be able to know an accurate margin. It's amazing how many founders we end up talking to that they can tell you their revenue numbers, they can tell you their selling price, and then the minute you start talking about cost or their cost of goods sold, they just get a deer in headlights look. So really it's very hard to tell, am I even making money? Or if you don't know your entire landed cost. Maybe you know what the freight cost is, the duties separately, but you're not really getting that as part of your unit cost. So it's really hard to tell. Am I even making money or am I losing money from the very beginning?
[00:51:04] Whole Foods: And do you recommend that founders are able to call up a margin by channel?
[00:51:09] New York: Absolutely. And depending on the number of products and channels, you kind of want to know what are your best sellers, which ones are making the most and which ones maybe you're not making as much. But especially if you're branching out and you're doing D to C with B to B, absolutely want to know that.
[00:51:25] Whole Foods: Gotcha. You mentioned that when things feel really chaotic, that's probably a red flag. I would say that it probably almost always feels chaotic if you're running a CBD brand. And I know this may be hard to quantify, but is there a revenue number? Is there a number of doors number that would help a brand understand whether or not it makes sense to bring on a partner like Belay? Understanding that so many brands are bootstrapped or they might be tight for cash. What is that friction point?
[00:51:58] New York: a little bit different for everybody depending on where you're at in your process and sometimes just your level of understanding of financial aspects. You know, when you're first starting and you're really cash conscious and don't want to spend that much money, you may keep it on yourself. But as you're growing, as you're getting to those six-figure revenue numbers, and especially as you're approaching seven, you want to make sure you've got good financials. Because as you scale to that point, most likely you're going to be looking to raise capital. And investors, the first thing they're going to look at is your books. And are they clean? And do they show a clear picture of your business?
[00:52:29] Whole Foods: You know, another area that folks might look to to organize some of the chaos are their systems. So many folks stick with Excel spreadsheets for a good amount of time. How do you know that you need to outsource some of your accounting to an organization like Belay Solutions versus maybe signing on to a Synth7 or a NetSuite or something like that?
[00:52:51] New York: Well, that's actually something we really help with when it comes to that cost question. That's something that trips people up. And sometimes if you just have a turnkey business, you buy and sell a finished good, you can maintain with spreadsheets. And we've had clients with million dollar revenue that can do that. But we see so many brands nowadays are using contract manufacturers. and they're just sourcing certain parts of their product. So when you start talking cost, they have no idea exactly what their unit cost is. So that's where we come in and we kind of understand, we'll speak with the customers and the clients and get their needs. And then if we think they're ready for a system, then we'll help put them on that system so they can get some of that clarity. And it's not something we force on anybody. There are plenty of times where founders come to us and we'll tell them bluntly, you're not ready for it right now, but we'll let you know when we think you are.
[00:53:37] Whole Foods: That sounds like excellent advice. What should a founder or somebody running a brand look for in an outsourced accounting partner? Are there certain checklist items that they should make sure that their partner be able to execute or be able to help them understand?
[00:53:54] New York: Absolutely. I think one of the keys, there's, there's a lot of outsourced accounting firms out there. Some focus on service-based SaaS companies, but if you're a CPG founder, you really want to make sure that your accounting firm has CPG experience. I would ask them, you know, what kind of brands have they worked with and even Beyond Meat industry specific, because there's so many subsets of CPG. And that's something that I think is great about what we do with Belay is that we kind of run the gamut. It's kind of like the insurance commercial. We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two across a broad spectrum.
[00:54:24] Whole Foods: Probably getting references is always helpful, right? Absolutely. All right. So this all sounds great. I think we have a really good understanding of would it make sense to hire an outsourced partner? You know, what some of the things you should be looking for are. What does offloading this kind of work mean for the brand? What can this do for lightening the load of a founder or lightening the load of a brand operator? Like, how does that help them in their everyday business?
[00:54:53] New York: It just tries to really help quiet the chaos. So what we're looking to do is just take some of the weight off that founder's shoulder, let them focus on building the brand, building the business, getting that exposure. If you don't have sales, you really don't have anything. So we want them to be able to focus on that while we take care of your back end office work. And we can just present that to you on a monthly basis, you can help make decisions, you can take that to investors. And really, you can just focus on growing your business.
[00:55:19] Whole Foods: I feel like I felt founders and the folks who are running brands collectively sigh. Breath of relief just hearing that. How can people learn more about Belay Solutions?
[00:55:30] New York: So people can text TASTE to 55123 for their free inventory guide to get started.
[00:55:35] Whole Foods: Matt Lynn, inventory accounting guru at Belay Solutions. Thank you so much for joining me here at Expo West. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you and learn about what you all do over there to help founders and brands with their financial accounting and inventory management. For everybody else out there, thank you for listening to the Taste Radio podcast. I am Melissa Traverse and we'll see you next time.
