[00:00:10] Ray Latif: Hello, friends. I'm Ray Latif, and you're listening to the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with Marguerite Zabar Mariscal, the CEO of Momofuku, the admired restaurant group founded by David Chang, and Momofuku Goods, a brand of restaurant-quality pantry items inspired by modern Asian cuisine. Marguerite Zabar Mariscal is rarely satisfied. It's not in her DNA, she says, nor that of the companies she helms, Momofuku and Momofuku Goods. Marguerite, who took the reins of Momofuku in 2019 and co-founded its consumer brand the same year, describes the company's opposition to complacency as, quote, a conscientious objection that has fueled constant improvement. That mindset helped Momofuku Goods generate $50 million in revenue in 2023, the year in which the brand was available in less than 4,000 retail locations. Despite the remarkable growth of Momofuku Goods, Marguerite is, as expected, loathe to rest on her laurels. She is, however, willing to be patient and cautious, perhaps to a fault, when it comes to the brand's next stage of development. I spoke with Marguerite Zabar her leadership and management of both Momofuku and Momofuku Goods in the following interview, which we recorded at Expo West 2024. Within our conversation, she explains why, quote, out-carrying the competition has been a critical part of the company's history and development, the reason that education about how to use its products is just as important as the food itself, how an intimate understanding of departmental operations has benefited her as a CEO, and why she's intent on building a company that, quote, has optionality. Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm honored to be sitting down with Marguerite Zabar Mariscal, the CEO of Momofuku.
[00:02:18] Marguerite Zabar: Hello, hello.
[00:02:18] Ray Latif: Hello, hello indeed. How are you? Good. Great. Happy to be here. Is this your, this is not your first Expo West, is it? It's my second. Second. Okay. Well, I feel like Expo West, whether it's your first or your second, it's still both exhilarating, chaotic, fun. How would you describe this show?
[00:02:34] Marguerite Zabar: It's generally been super, super exciting. And maybe that changes over the years, but I truly think just meeting people like other founders. Last year, because we started this business in the pandemic, I genuinely met some of our investors face to face for the first time, not on Zoom. So it's been cool to just get to connect with people. Last night, I truly met one of our angel investors for the first time. So I'm still making the rounds. So it's been fun.
[00:03:04] Ray Latif: Well, Momofuku Goods was built during the pandemic, but Momofuku Goods a company is approaching its 20th anniversary. Are we already in your 20th anniversary?
[00:03:14] Marguerite Zabar: We're in the 20th. We're in the 20th.
[00:03:16] Ray Latif: That's pretty amazing. You've been the CEO for the past five. You've been with the company for 13 years? Yeah, around 13, yeah. What's your proudest moment being with the company?
[00:03:25] Marguerite Zabar: I mean, honestly, making it through the pandemic, we were a restaurant group for probably 15 of our 20 years and purely a restaurant group. And to be fair, like we really, you know, we had a food magazine. So maybe purely restaurant groups, not even right. We had a food magazine. We had a culinary lab where we're making products that we sold to three Michelin star restaurants around the country. So we've always been very, I would say, multifaceted. But I think really coming out of the pandemic stronger than we went in is something that I'm extremely proud of.
[00:03:56] Ray Latif: But I imagine it was also your most challenging stretch.
[00:03:59] Marguerite Zabar: Oh, yeah. The first six months were horrible. Yeah, absolutely horrible. But I truly believe, you know, nothing's scary after you go through that. And I think it was really expedited in a lot of ways, taking risks. You know, betting big, like you had to, you couldn't really operate in a standard model. You had to do things that were maybe outside of if you were, you know, the pandemic never happened, you would probably be a little more cautious, a little more safe. So in a lot of ways, it was the most challenging time. But honestly, I think I was CEO for six months before the pandemic started. So it also, I think in a lot of ways, was almost the permission to change, right? And change very quickly.
[00:04:40] Ray Latif: Yeah. It was yesterday, March 13th, 2020, when the United States, when they made the emergency declaration that the pandemic was here. Yeah. And a lot of things shut down at that time. And I recall, I thought about that yesterday and I was like, man, that was so traumatizing. And I imagine as a leader, having to get through the trauma personally and still be in charge of a team must have been tough.
[00:05:03] Marguerite Zabar: Well, I think for us, we very much, and I credit David Chang and other people in that, you know, we didn't shut down March 13th. We shut down, I think, March 10th, March 9th. in that we knew that something was happening and we didn't know, right? We didn't know if it was safe. We didn't know how long it would last. We didn't know anything. And so I remember making a decision to close everything down. And, you know, we had restaurants that were like, well, I have a 50% birthday coming in tonight. I have this, I have this. Like, I'm not going to shut down. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, this is bigger than all of us. And so we actually were very proactive about it and I think really saw it for what it was. And I think that something we talk a lot about at Mofuku is like being right in the long term, meaning like taking the grief, taking the near term, whatever it is, negativity, etc. Because we want when you look back in five years to say like you did the right thing. And so I think that's like a lot of how we operate and a lot of what we try to do across like all facets of our business.
[00:06:04] Ray Latif: In hindsight, would you have done anything differently?
[00:06:06] Marguerite Zabar: No, absolutely not. And I think it was tough. It was tough. And I think, you know, as you said, March 13th, the declaration, you know, obviously the months after, I think we just didn't know. And we were very slow to reopen because we really wanted to basically make SOPs, you know, basically procedures, systems, et cetera, that we trusted and believed in and really leveraged our teams on the ground to come up with those, because they were the ones that were actually going to be doing it, right? So it's like, they should feel comfortable and part of the process. But anyway, it was just very much something we talk about a lot. And I think similarly going into is really interesting. We in 2019, we're asking a ton of people, we're talking about CPG, we're super excited about it. And we had so many people tell us that going into the global flavors or ethnic aisle, as people call it, was a bad decision. They were like, you know, oh, it's so sleepy, it's so tired. And once again, it's like, all right, well, like in five years, you know, let's look back and see. And I think that's like very much, I think the perspective we come from. And if anything, people saying it was sleepy, we were like, great, that's where you wanna be. That's like where there's interesting things that can happen.
[00:07:14] Ray Latif: That's a really good point. You had said that as an organization, you think about the long term. You think about the long term impact of your decisions. And I read quite a bit about you and I think I've done enough research on you. By the way, the one thing typically when I do a lot of research on someone is I try to think about what their favorite movie might be. And I can't think of what your favorite movie might be. If I had to take a guess, I would say it's like a Sofia Coppola movie.
[00:07:40] Marguerite Zabar: So I think my two favorite movies are Best in Show. Best in Show, okay, never would have guessed that. Or like Moonstruck. Moonstruck? A variant on Moonstruck. Okay, comedies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:07:49] Ray Latif: Essentially. Yeah. Yeah, right on. Well, Sofia Coppola.
[00:07:52] Marguerite Zabar: I'm flattered that you think it would be a Sofia Coppola movie.
[00:07:55] Ray Latif: Well, I think, you know, you grew up in New York, you flipped your, essentially your entire life in New York, and she's, I feel like all of her movies have that sort of, I don't know.
[00:08:04] Marguerite Zabar: Oh, they're incredible, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sort of city vibe.
[00:08:06] Ray Latif: I'm very pro, yeah. Yeah, yeah, she's amazing. Anyway. One of the other things that Momofuku says a lot or is part of your mission is that we always say that we have to, quote, outcare the competition. I think I read that in the New York Times. But as distinct a brand as Momofuku Goods, it feels like your competition is apathy and contentment, right?
[00:08:27] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, I mean, yeah, something we always say is like, fear apathy, embrace empathy. And I think our history has been like a kind of like conscientious objection to complacency. Like I think we very much, we were a restaurant group, we've been all these things. And I think as an organization, it's growing and changing and killing your darlings. And there's an executive coach who's incredible, his name's Marshall Goldsmith. And he has a book called What Got Us Here Won't Get Us There. And the whole premise is just as you grow, what made you successful in your previous role is not necessarily the thing that's gonna make you successful in the future. And I think that's, think about being a cook, right? You can be an incredible cook. that really doesn't prepare you to be a chef, like a leader, right, of people. And so I think for us very much, as we've continued, you know, 20 years in to grow, it's very much about, you know, how do we rethink what we do? How do we rethink how we do it? And I think that's very much at the core of what we do. And it's what's allowed us to kind of enter these spaces that, you know, I think historically haven't been part of a, you know, restaurant company.
[00:09:37] Ray Latif: Do you think about other emerging restaurant concepts and emerging brands that play in the same spaces as your goods brand as competition or are you just really laser focused on what you can accomplish as a brand?
[00:09:52] Marguerite Zabar: As far as like the global flavors aisle, I think rising tide lifts all boats, right? And we're never going to make all of the products that exist there. And so I really think there is this collective incredible thing that's happening. Like during the pandemic, I really think that people started to, A, we know that people are cooking at home more. I think people got kind of tired of what they had been cooking or knew how to cook. And I think there was this amazing moment where people were really willing to take like risks in the grocery store, right? And buy something we haven't had before or try to replicate a meal that they've had at a restaurant. And I think just the overall aisle has become absolutely incredible and it's going to get better and better and better. very much I don't think about it as competition. I think when I think about competition, I think about the historical brands that have been in the space for so long that are not necessarily incredible. And so it's more about how can we go after these massive brands that are, you know, have for ages been the only thing available. I think that's when I think about competition. It's like going after those guys, not anyone else who's coming up from restaurants or now in the space.
[00:10:55] Ray Latif: But Momofuku has this reputation as being a trendsetting brand in the restaurants, in the goods line. And at the same time, I think people have come to embrace predictability of those brands that you talked about, those legacy brands. And so I wonder how you think about the balance or if there is a balance that you chase between being a trendsetter versus meeting consumer expectations for consistent flavor and texture.
[00:11:23] Marguerite Zabar: Totally, something that has always been, I think for us, it's like community, right? And it's education, and it's the ability to convert people to these products, right? And so, I mean, there's that Henry Ford quote that's like, if you ask people what they wanted, they would say faster horses, right? And so I think for us, you look at something like Chili Crisp, which if you looked at conventional grocery, if you actually were just looking at data, you would say, oh, don't do that, it's horrible. And you look at the trend of Chili Crisp, which didn't exist really in conventional grocery. And the fact that it's now a category, right, where there's multiple players and things happening, it's like, and I think something we think about all the time, right? How much are you looking at data and having that inform what you do versus saying, you know, like, and I credit Dave with this, saying, like, in my gut, I know that this works. I know there are multiple cultures around the world where this is a thing that people want, so let's bring it to them. And so I think as we grow, it's really finding that balance between looking at the data that everyone looks at and seeing where to go, but also not being 100% relying on it because what people don't know is usually the thing that's going to be the most transformative and interesting to do.
[00:12:32] Zabar Mariscal: Vibrant Ingredients is the natural ingredient partner powering food and beverage innovation, delivering flavor, function, and protection through a science-backed portfolio. Vibrant delivers purpose-driven solutions that help brands create extraordinary experiences. Discover what's possible with Vibrant today. Visit vibrantingredients.com.
[00:12:59] Ray Latif: I imagine if Dave were here, he'd punch me in the face for asking this question, but Dave's been wrong sometimes.
[00:13:03] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, totally.
[00:13:04] Ray Latif: And I wonder if he's been wrong when you've advised him to not do a certain thing and what that conversation is like before and after.
[00:13:12] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah. I mean, I think Dave would say if he was here, he would say, yeah, no. 100%.
[00:13:17] Ray Latif: He wouldn't punch me in the face.
[00:13:18] Marguerite Zabar: No, no. I think he would say, he would say, you know, let's, ghost kitchens is a great example. Dave had two concepts that were ghost kitchens, but they were in 2016. And no one wanted a ghost kitchen then. And so you can be right and also have wrong timing. You know, you could say, hey, like, you know, me, so is the future. Like, that's what everyone's gonna be cooking with. And you could be right. But if you're off on timing, you know, like people aren't ready for it, then it doesn't really matter. And so I think for us, it really is about finding that balance of what are people ready for, what can become part of someone's routine, and making sure that we're, as you said, meeting people where they are, right, and not forcing it. So I think a great example of that, when we had the culinary lab, we made these products, we made something called Hozon and Bhanji. Bhanji was essentially, soy sauce, but made with New York State, you know, rye or tomato instead of soy. And we made something called hozon that was essentially miso using chickpea and other ingredients instead of soy. And those were great. And they were delicious. And we use them in our restaurants. But really where I think my voice is, is like, well, have we ever made soy sauce? Right? Maybe people aren't ready for banji. Maybe they will be in the future. But how do you create things that meet people where they are and bring them into these flavors, you know, a change in what they pick up in the grocery store. The thing I think about a lot is like Dave has amazing ideas, truly genius, amazing ideas. The question is just which is the biggest of them, right? What has the most potential? And I think I'm almost more of an editor, right, of like what is now here that people can meet and what is a great idea, but maybe it's 30 years too early in terms of where people are shopping and what they want.
[00:15:01] Ray Latif: Yeah, I feel like one of the most challenging parts about being an entrepreneur, and I'm not an entrepreneur just to put that out there, but one of the most challenging parts of it is when to trust your intuition versus when to accept and incorporate the data and the research that's out there about a particular category, about the restaurant industry. How does that work in your business?
[00:15:20] Marguerite Zabar: How do you approach that? Yeah, it's really interesting. I think honestly, and as we grow, I think it gets more and more interesting, right? Because when you're a restaurant group and you decide to make chili crunch, there's no, it's like, why not, right? There's nothing to lose. I think as we get bigger, it's exactly, we're having the same conversations of how much are we going to do intuition versus looking at Nielsen data and saying that there's a market here.
[00:15:45] Ray Latif: And Nielsen data is very expensive, so if you're going to buy it, you better use it, right?
[00:15:48] Marguerite Zabar: And let me tell you, we did not have Nielsen data until pretty recently. And so it's been, yeah, it's been a journey. And I think, I guess for me, I look at it as like, it's always both. And I think a lot of like, what makes our products amazing is that I use them every day. Dave uses them every day. Our team uses them every day. And that's what makes them good, right? So it's like, you have to look at your expensive data and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, it's like, if you're not excited about it, then I think you lose a little something there too.
[00:16:19] Ray Latif: For sure. I mean, I don't know why anyone would be in business as an entrepreneur if you don't like what you're doing.
[00:16:24] Marguerite Zabar: Especially in food. Yeah, for sure.
[00:16:25] Ray Latif: I mean, food, yeah, that's one of the strangest things when... data does dictate line extensions or innovation, but the entrepreneur behind it is like, yeah, I really don't like this product. We're only doing it because it'll sell.
[00:16:37] Marguerite Zabar: And there are people, I know people who are those kind of people. But I just think maybe coming from the restaurant industry, like I just can't imagine that. Yeah. Like food is so fundamental to everything we do and product, you know, innovation, NPD, everything comes from like what we're excited about and what we want to eat. And I think if we lose that, we lose, you know, everything.
[00:17:00] Ray Latif: You know how to use your products, you know how to use your goods products, do your consumers know how to use them?
[00:17:04] Marguerite Zabar: So we have an amazing community and I think starting direct-to-consumer is a huge part of that, right? Like the ability to educate, to do recipes, everything. And for us it's like it's great that someone bought something but the worst thing is someone buys our products and they sit in their shelf and they never use them and then You know, like for us, it's like, how do you make it part of their routine? How do you make it, hey, you know, once a week, I'm making noodles for my family. And so for us, education around the products is almost as important as the product themselves. So I think, you know, we've been able to make, we have an email list of about 600,000 people. Wow. That we built and we built it in the pandemic, right? It's like it started out with the people who have been to our restaurants that signed up to get updates. And then when we started making products, that's obviously what we updated them about. And then it's grown from there. But That is predominantly, sure, there's promotions, there's new bundles, there's all this stuff. But most of the content is content, it's recipes, it's how to use this. And I think that is also a differentiating factor about being more than just products, but also a brand, right? And both trusting us as a restaurant group to give you a recipe of how to use this product as opposed to just a product. And I think that's the differentiating factor between us and other people in the space.
[00:18:23] Ray Latif: Is it just recipes or do you embed video? What kind of media do you use?
[00:18:27] Marguerite Zabar: Definitely videos. We have Dave cooking. We have our chefs cooking. Recipes have been huge. Yeah, just all the different ways to get someone to try something new. And I think that's like a lot of what we're doing is giving people the confidence to try something new with super simple recipes that, you know, we're basically telling you like you can eat restaurant quality food at home. And that's what we want people to be able to do.
[00:18:51] Ray Latif: My next question, I think you already answered, but I'll ask it anyway. $50 million in sales for the goods line, for the goods brand in 2023. That's kind of unheard of for a company or a brand that launched four years earlier. Given the relatively small footprint that Momofuku Goods has, retail distribution footprint, how has the brand been so successful?
[00:19:10] Marguerite Zabar: I really think it is like 20 years of building something, right? And so there's an amazing stat, which is 90% of the people that follow Dave and Momofuku, so that's over 2 million people, don't live in cities in which we operate restaurants. So there's always been a community of people that know who we are, who are following us, interested in what's going on, that we haven't really been able to reach. And I think the products have almost been the ability to reach more people, to change how people think about cooking and what's in their pantry. And so for us, I really think it comes down to building something and then having these products as opposed to trying to do both at the same time.
[00:19:53] Ray Latif: So the restaurant group, if I'm hearing this correctly, really allows the goods brand to thrive.
[00:20:00] Marguerite Zabar: A hundred percent. I think it's, you know, the way I look at it, which I think is unconventional, maybe, is that it should be symbiotic. And that, you know, there's all these restaurants who historically, right, have licensed frozen food, packaged food to ConAgra and these big brands. And it's almost diffusion. And I think what we're trying to do is to treat CPG not as diffusion but as one to one with what we're doing in restaurants. And so we literally use the products in our restaurants. And so that I think is the differentiating factor between us and most people. And I think like that's what's resonating and that's what's working.
[00:20:38] Ray Latif: Some people might say that The Momofuku empire feels a bit intimidating to at-home chefs and at-home consumers. You know, they don't know that they can make the same dishes using even restaurant quality ingredients. How have you made it easier for people who aren't necessarily familiar with cooking or, you know, just don't feel confident enough to make your product, to make your dishes at home? How do you communicate with those folks?
[00:21:04] Marguerite Zabar: I think it's taking the flavors that we've done in the restaurant, but, you know, we literally did something, I think it was like sheet pan month, where everything, every recipe was on a sheet pan, one sheet pan. We are currently, or maybe it just ended doing like one pot month, essentially, where everything's done in one pot. So it's really about taking the flavors that we've worked with, but then translating them to something that takes 30 minutes, right? Or it's one pot that you have to clean. And I think that, flip or that new way of us looking at how we cook, right, which is different than the restaurants. I think that's trying to bridge that gap, right, where we're telling you how to use this, we're telling you it's not going to take, you know, three days to make it. And I think that is But really the key and really like the content strategy is taking flavors we know work, we have 20 years of knowing what people think is delicious, and then how do you take that and make it simpler than what we do in our restaurants so that you can do it at home.
[00:22:03] Ray Latif: Marguerite, I get the sense that you are intimately involved in every aspect of Momofuku Goods a restaurant group and as of the goods brand as well. It just feels like you know how the business works in every single department. And I could be wrong. It just feels that way.
[00:22:22] Marguerite Zabar: I would never say that.
[00:22:24] Ray Latif: But I mean, is it important for you to really be involved in as much as as complex as a business as this is?
[00:22:32] Marguerite Zabar: I think so. I mean, I think first of all, I think we have an incredible team that's doing all this, right? Like, I'm not coming up with sheet pan months. Like, we have an incredible team. But you like it. Oh, I love it. Yeah. And I think a lot of ways like coming up through the business, you know, coming on 13 years, like having done these jobs, right? Like I was in charge of social media at some point, I was in charge of design at some point, I was in charge of comms at some point. And so as we grow, and you know, I'm not the person doing these things anymore. And I think for me, it's just maybe inherent just having done all these things that it's something of interest. But we have extraordinary people that are doing them today.
[00:23:12] Ray Latif: Just managing the restaurant group feels like a pretty tough job. I mean, there's just so many different aspects to it. And I almost feel like just running the CPG business, would be a great thing to do. I mean, I'm not suggesting that you should stop, close all your restaurants, but, you know, as you continue to grow and as you continue to have to manage all different aspects of the business, do you ever say to yourself, you know what, I might want to just hand the reins off of the restaurant group to someone else or, you know, have a general manager or someone else run the goods line? I mean, how do you think about delegating as the company continues to grow?
[00:23:50] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, I think as both companies continue to grow, cuz we're growing on the restaurant side too, we're gonna need more and more resources to support that. But I do believe that having someone who can look across all aspects of this, right? I mean, everything says Momofuku, right? Everything has Dave affiliated with it, and I think the ability to use those as an advantage, right? And I think that's, once again, the unique part of our business is, The rising tide lifts all boats, right? And the idea that the coordination, being able to have Chili Crunch on the table of our restaurant in Las Vegas that hundreds of thousands of people come through every year is incredible. And so will I need more help 100%? But I do think there's a beauty in the continuity that is, I think, unique to our business.
[00:24:37] Ray Latif: What keeps you motivated to continue to lead such a dynamic and challenging business?
[00:24:42] Marguerite Zabar: Truly, I think every year I've worked, you know, I think working in restaurants, working for the same business for 13 years is insane. CPG, I don't know if I've been here long enough to know whether that's insane or not, but.
[00:24:53] Ray Latif: What you're saying is that you don't necessarily, people don't necessarily stay at the same restaurant group for 13 years.
[00:24:57] Marguerite Zabar: No, no, no. It's a notoriously high turnover business, but I truly think every year I'm doing something different, whether it's a new role, a new CPG business. For me, the motivation is really continuing to evolve the company and change what we do. And I think at the end of the day, and the thing that I'm super excited about is you know, in a lot of ways, like trying to democratize these flavors. And I think Momofuku in 2004 was able to really change people's perception of, you know, what is ramen, right? And what is fine dining? What is, you know, all these things. And I think it's really exciting now to be able to similarly in the grocery store, change the perception of what is in the American pantry. And I think if you look at restaurants, obviously, you know, education, like people now understanding the difference of Sichuan versus Cantonese, where it used to be Chinese, right? And if you look at the grocery store, the knowledge in olive oil has changed substantially. Now there's finishing, there's extra virgin, there's all these things. And so I truly believe in our lifetimes, we will see the evolution of the grocery aisle. And you think about sriracha. And how that's now next to ketchup. Like, I think that there's such unbelievable change that's possible. And I think everything's moving in that direction. People's food knowledge is moving in that direction. So being able to impact the American pantry is something that's just super exciting to me.
[00:26:27] Ray Latif: And you've only scratched the surface again in terms of retail and distribution. How are you attempting to determine the best? locations for Momofuku Goods, you know, are you in a position right now, given your revenue and given the cache that Momofuku has, are you in a position to say, we want to be here, but not there?
[00:26:45] Marguerite Zabar: Oh, 100%. I mean, to your point, I think we're in less than 4,000 doors right now. And we very much have taken like a stair-step approach, I would say, with a lot of our retailers, where the retailer might be like, all right, let's go national. And hey, we're just dipping our toes into conventional retail. Let's start with $200. Let's start with $400. Let's see how it goes. I think we're We're inherently pessimists, I think, at our company in that we're never going to assume anything's a slam dunk. We're never going to assume that anything's going to work. And so I think we've taken a very deliberate, slow approach to growth to basically prove out at every stage that hey, this works, right? This works in natural organic, we're seeing this work in Publix, we're seeing this work in XYZ, and then going from there. So I think we've maybe been overly cautious, but I think for us, the future is more doors, it's growth, but I think we've had the privilege maybe of being very deliberate about where we are.
[00:27:48] Ray Latif: Was that advice you received or is that just your general strategy as it relates to the goods brand?
[00:27:55] Marguerite Zabar: I don't know, I think probably more internal because I, you know, I think the advice that I've gotten is that, you know, obviously if you go national, it's like you maybe can negotiate for more, right? More support and caps, whatever it is. I think as I said, I think we're just inherently at Mofuku, glass half, you know, empty people. And so I think that approach, and maybe that comes from working in restaurants. And so I think the cautiousness is just kind of like baked into our being.
[00:28:22] Ray Latif: Yeah. Well, I mean, getting into CPG, as you noted, is not an easy thing to do. Being successful is even harder. And, you know, people listen to podcasts like Face Radio and they work with consultants and they have advisors and they have a board and, you know, everyone is offering some kind of feedback, advice, insights as to how to build your business. And sometimes you get the wrong advice. You know, sometimes it's advice that you should not have taken. I mean, how do you, How do you take advice and know when to incorporate into your strategy versus just say, no, that's not something we'll do?
[00:28:55] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, I think something I've loved about working in this space is just how generous everyone is with their time. And, you know, I was literally at a dinner, you know, this is the beauty of Expo, right? I'm at this dinner, you know, two nights ago, and I'm next to someone who's doing, you know, $200 million in D2C sales and the generosity of saying, hey, we're completely, we're both in food, but completely non-competitive businesses. Like, yeah, I'll get on a call with your team and talk through what I'm doing. And so we've been super, super lucky across many brands. One of our board members is the founder of Magic Spoon, for example. And they are so far beyond where we are in D2C that having these people you can call on and getting multiple perspectives to your point, not like getting advice and then taking it, but it's like, hey, I'm going to talk to like three people who've been here and done that and kind of like aggregate everything that everyone's saying and then make a plan from there. And I think that restaurants during the pandemic, there was way more of that than there's ever been, but there's not the same kind of community collectively than I've experienced in CPG.
[00:29:58] Ray Latif: It also helps when you have Melissa Ficino as an investor in your company. Melissa's great. She's been on our podcast. I've worked with her a number of times. She's great. She's really knowledgeable about the business and having folks like that, that you can lean on is great. But investors in general, I mean, I think trying to navigate who you take money from and what their real intentions are can sometimes be difficult.
[00:30:20] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah. And I think with Melissa and Citi and with all of our investors, we very much went with people that got what we were doing, right? And that we're okay with a stair-step slower approach, right? Like we definitely had people that were like, you know, we'll give you this money. And then if you quadruple your sales in X years, we'll give you more money. And like, For us, even if we do do that, it was important to have people around the table that kind of saw the long term. And I think that goes back to what I was saying in the beginning, which is like for us, I mean, I grew up in a family run business. Dave grew up in a family run business. I think we're looking at this not of like churn and burn, but very much, hey, this business is built over 20 years. We can't fuck this up. I don't know if I can curse. You just did. You just did.
[00:31:08] Ray Latif: Uh, you've mentioned Dave a number of times and I almost feel like, you know, superstar chefs was a big thing 10, 15 years ago. It still is. But I almost feel like we're entering this phase of sort of post-chef culture. Yeah. How does that affect perception of Momofuku now and in the future?
[00:31:27] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, I mean, I think Dave is doing really interesting things right now. He has a live show on Netflix, and it's the first ever, as far as I know, live cooking show. So it's just, there's no swap outs, there's no, you know, whatever. It's truly like live cooking, and if he like burns toast, he burns toast, right? Like, it's just what it is. And I think in a lot of ways, it's almost like evolving what restaurants are, right? And so for Dave to cook for two people, but have it be on Netflix, and be able to be viewed by millions is kind of the future as opposed to having a 12 seat restaurant like Dave did in 2008. So that's where he's spending a lot of his time and focusing. And he's very involved in products and all that. And I think something we talk a lot about is, and I think what's really cool is as the Brandt Gehrs and as we go into more conventional grocery, we're engaging with people who have no idea who Dave is. And Dave loves that. You know, it's like, for us, the coolest thing is the product speaks for itself. It could just be this random thing you picked up, but the quality's there. It's genuinely a superior product to a lot of what's out there. And so that is, I think, the most interesting thing is it almost, as we grow and grow, we're moving more and more away from the demo that would know Dave and recognize Dave as a superstar chef.
[00:32:48] Ray Latif: Does his cooking show benefit one of the companies more than the other? Does it benefit the goods company more than the restaurant group?
[00:32:56] Marguerite Zabar: It's both. I think, yeah. I say this for the third time, rising tide flips over. It's like, I, you know, Dave being on, he had a show on Netflix called Ugly Delicious that had a, you know, let's call it 10 to 15% bump on covers for the restaurants. Right. And so now with this, with this new show, I mean, It's tangible. It's tangible. And I think that that's what's really exciting and interesting and goes back to this symbiotic relationship of what a lot of what I'm trying to do is you have Dave doing media, you have CPG, you have the restaurants, and how does all of that benefit each other? And I think that that's what's like fun and exciting.
[00:33:33] Ray Latif: Is it fun and exciting to think about maybe selling the company one day? I mean, and, you know, taking a break.
[00:33:39] Marguerite Zabar: The thing that I think we talk about internally is optionality, meaning being profitable means that you get to decide what you want to do and when you want to take money and who you want to take money from. And so I think it's way more important to us to be able to make those decisions in the future and focus on building a company that has optionality. I think that is the exciting thing right now.
[00:34:04] Ray Latif: One more quote that I read of yours. And you said, I'm never going to be the person who says that we're done, that we're done. Okay. I take that to mean you can't be satisfied with where you are, but at a certain point you're going to have to be kind of done. And I think, well, maybe not. I mean, that's a good point. I mean, as long as the energy is there, as long as the enthusiasm, as long as the passion is there, but you know, in the short term, you know, what's next?
[00:34:34] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah, I don't know. I think it's continuing to do this. I think not being done, I think it's, you know, as I said, my job has been different every single year. So right now it's running this company, it's the restaurants, it's all of it. But yeah, I don't know. Like, I mean, Dave has no shortage of ideas. So, you know, it's like the number of times we've talked about, it's like, do you run, you know, like basically, okay, you have products, do you have a store, right? Like, I mean, just truly endless. And so, and I'm the person who's like, no. There's enough things to focus on. But yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, we'll get to a place where we've done, hopefully, a really great job with this company. And I guess what I would just say is, I think Momofuku has proven that it's not just a restaurant group. It's not just products. It's not just all these things. And so what Momofuku Goods like in the future could be a myriad of businesses and different ideas. And that's what's exciting. But I'm also very focused on just getting this right.
[00:35:30] Ray Latif: reigning him in.
[00:35:31] Marguerite Zabar: Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, if he was here, he'd say the same thing.
[00:35:36] Ray Latif: Yeah. Marguerite, it's interesting, you know, in some ways your family business is the reason that I'm here right now, because Zabar's was my dad's favorite store. Yeah, yeah. It's the reason he started a chain or a big part of the reason he started a chain of gourmet food stores. So in the 80s, 70s through the 90s, I was in a chain called Oakwood Farms. And my brothers have carried on the tradition. They have a retail store in Connecticut now. And I used to grow up going to the fancy food show. Yes, all the time.
[00:36:05] Marguerite Zabar: So yours is like a staple of a fancy food show. Yes, exactly.
[00:36:10] Ray Latif: And every time we'd go to New York, the fancy food show would go to Zabar's. And sometimes multiple times. And we'd be eating like, you know, lox and bagels in the car on the way home and stuff. And it's really inspiring to be in the food business, to cover the food business, to meet people who are passionate about it and who have a deep history and tie to the great things that come from feeding people. I always remember my dad used to say, you know, we're doing good things because we're feeding people good food.
[00:36:38] Marguerite Zabar: I think food is one of the few businesses where going back, like out carrying your competition actually matters, right? Because it is about feeding people and nourishing people. And yeah, it's a cool, it's a good place to be. Yeah.
[00:36:52] Ray Latif: And again, you know, being here at Natural Products Expo West, I think that nearly everyone here would say, we're trying to do better. You know, we're trying to give people better food, to make them healthier, to make them happier, and to, I guess, transform a system that wasn't intended to be. You know, we were never intended to eat crap. I'm sorry to say it. And little by little, I think we're all here to make things better for everyone. Yeah. Once again, Marguerite, this has been an honor for me. Thank you so much for taking the time.
[00:37:20] Marguerite Zabar: No, thank you.
[00:37:24] Ray Latif: That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNET.com, Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cracci. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski, and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram. Our handle is BevNetTasteRadio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
[00:38:15] Marguerite Zabar: you
