[00:00:02] Justin Kendall: On numerous occasions, I've had tough conversations with entrepreneurs and basically said, you know, you need to lean in harder. You know, just because that didn't work out doesn't mean it's not going to work. You know, get back up, get back in the ring and go make it happen.
[00:00:20] Ad Read: This week's episode of Taste Radio is sponsored by BevNET Events.
[00:00:23] Clayton Christopher: Calling all better for you packaged food brands. Join us this June 4th and 5th for Nosh Live, At Natural food industry conference gathering A-list speakers from top brands, investors, retailers and more. We're gonna navigate the food industry, discover what's next, and help you find your next critical partnership.
[00:00:40] Ad Read: And beverage brands don't feel left out. BevNET Live takes place on June 6th and 7th to analyze the current challenges and trends in the non-alcoholic, ready-to-drink beverage space.
[00:00:50] Clayton Christopher: We know you guys spend a lot of money and time at the big trade shows, and those events do a fantastic job at connecting brands with retail buyers. But let's face it, there's a lot more to your business beyond retail relationships.
[00:01:02] Ad Read: BevNET events focus on the decisions you make every day. The quality of these decisions ultimately determine the success or failure of your business. We gather the community to provide you with forward thinking, case studies, lessons learned, and industry connections that enable your brand to make the best decisions.
[00:01:20] Clayton Christopher: Wanna learn more? Head over to bevnetlive.com and noshlive.com and feel free to reach out to us directly by emailing sales at BevNET.com if you have any questions. We hope to see you there. And now Taste Radio.
[00:01:42] Ad Read: Thanks for listening to BevNET's Taste Radio. I'm Mike Schneider, filling in for the injured Ray Latif who was two-footed at Old Trafford last night by Granachacka. Actually, he's actually out of the office. I'm with Jon Landis and Jeffrey Klineman. We're recording from our studio in Watertown, Mass. In this week's episode, we feature two interviews with kitchen-to-exit entrepreneurs. Two founders who have really personified the entrepreneurial dream. First, we speak with veteran entrepreneur and investor Clayton Christopher, the co-founder of Sweet Leaf Tea, Deep Eddy Vodka, and private equity firm Kavu. We then speak with John McDonald, the founder of iconic craft beer company Boulevard Brewing. And in this week's edition of Elevator Talk, we hear from Kabir Gambhir, the founder and CEO of innovative beverage brand Bevia. Just a reminder to our listeners, for you Ray, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send an email to ask at Taste Radio. And of course, if you love Taste Radio, we do ask you to do us a solid and review us on iTunes. This week, Well, over the past couple of weeks, we've had a few great visits. First, we had Beacon come in. B-K-O-N. Jeff, you visited with Beacon. Is it Beacon or Beacon?
[00:02:52] Clayton Christopher: You know, they said Beacon, and I'm glad it is Beacon because it reads Beacon. Beacon! Beacon. It's a technology that has the potential to actually deserve that kind of forceful B-con kind of name. It'd be a great stock symbol. What is it? It's an extraction process? Yeah, it's a flavor extraction process and you know, I'm not a food scientist or even allowed to play one on TV. But these guys come out of the coffee business, they're fourth generation roasters. They wanted to figure out a way to really show the terroir of the beans that they're extracting from. And they seem to have created a pretty effective system for capturing full flavor. We didn't do any side-by-sides but their methodology yielded some pretty great tasting water and tea and cold-brewed coffee products.
[00:03:56] Ad Read: And a special delivery from you to my desk, which doesn't always happen. I enjoyed that.
[00:04:02] Clayton Christopher: It was good stuff. What I thought was interesting was that that product itself was several months old and still had an incredible amount of differing flavor notes. You could tell it came from a single source bean. And some of the water samples, the flavored water samples they left behind had a real pop to them without any kind of sweetener. At a time when people are starting to wonder, as our friend Bill Creelman is staking his business on, at a time when many people are starting to wonder about flavor sourcing, this product seems to have an edge. Now, I don't know the financials around it, I don't know the sustainability around it, but they seem to be at a point in their development where they said they wanted to come show it to us.
[00:05:04] Ad Read: Exciting stuff from BConn. And speaking of difference, we also had a visit from Waku this week, formerly known as Wanku. Wanku. Wanku. I know, it's Waku.
[00:05:15] Clayton Christopher: Yeah, definitely glad he pulled the N out of there. Makes it a little bit easier on the palate. I can't wait for the next evolution to Waka and then to Waka, Waka, Waka.
[00:05:28] Ad Read: And we've got Wacko to my right here.
[00:05:30] Clayton Christopher: Waku's got a really interesting botanical blend of 20 different herbs and flowers from the Andes Mountains that is more of a traditional type of a brewed product that they drink up there and he's bringing it to the States. You know, a Babson MBA grad, he just finished his MBA program. I think it was the last day of his program when he visited us in the office. So definitely look for that in the Boston area and he'll be at BevNET Live too, so you get to meet him there.
[00:05:59] Ad Read: Yeah, good to see the evolution of the brand and we were like super grateful that he got it to us early and we were able to give some feedback and I think that he said it's worked out pretty well for him.
[00:06:09] Clayton Christopher: Yeah, we also had another person coming to BevNET Live in the office the other day, Fred Hart from Interact out in Boulder, one of the more well-known prolific designers nowadays in food and beverage. He's been working on
[00:06:24] Ad Read: Fred Hart from Freddie on the spot.
[00:06:26] Clayton Christopher: So many, so many different products and brands in the last two years, three years really. And it was great to have him hang out with the team here. Always great to have a visit from Fred. He's very passionate about brands and about design. Also, always great to have a visit from a Babson MBA. It seems like they're constantly pushing into great positions in the food and beverage industry. Shout out to Rachel Greenberger over there doing some great work with their Food Soul program. Absolutely. And shout out to alumni like Andy Steele, Bob Burke.
[00:07:05] Ad Read: We mentioned Fred Hart is going to join us at BevNET Live. We've got Nosh Live and BevNET Live right around the corner here. June 4th and 5th for Nosh Live. June 6th and 7th for BevNET Live. Jeff, we just made an announcement of both full agendas. You can get them at noshlive.com and bevnetlive.com. What's exciting, Jeff?
[00:07:24] Clayton Christopher: Well, one thing I think that is exciting is the full weight of the entrepreneurs who are going to be presenting at Nosh Live, including Natasha Case from Coolhaus, Livio Besterzo from Hippies, Kyle Ransford from Scheft. Porvy Patodia from Vienna Snacks. Right around the corner. Just spoke with her yesterday. Joel Clark from Kodiak Cakes. These people are representatives of brands and platforms and they're coming to share their specific challenges, their specific thoughts about how they are faring in the marketplace and ways that other entrepreneurs in the audience can either excel or can learn from mistakes.
[00:08:14] Ad Read: I've been looking through the audience and who's coming to this show. We've got a lot of investors signed up for the show. You know, there's going to be some great networking happening at Nosh Live.
[00:08:22] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. And to Jeff's point, you know, the entrepreneurs and brand owners in the audience, You know, you guys make a lot of decisions every single day and it's really important to hear what when other people were faced with similar challenges and had to make similar decisions, what they did, what the outcomes were, and that helps inform you and make you feel more confident in the decisions that you're making. Part of my theory about what makes these people speak and what delivers value to the audience is Look, none of these companies are the exact same. They're all kind of limping on one out of four specific areas, be it finance, operations, sales, or marketing. Our entrepreneurs in particular are able to give a lens into what they take into consideration as they start to decide how they want to grow. And when they give these cases, they're not being prescriptive. This is what you do in every case, but it's... Yeah, this is what happened. This is what happened. And this is how we thought about it. And this is the decision tree. And it offers enough steps that the entrepreneurs in the audience can substitute in their own variables.
[00:09:41] Ad Read: Well, what great entrepreneurs have you recently announced for BevNetLife?
[00:09:45] Clayton Christopher: Well, for BevNET Live, we've got a very interesting crew of people, including a rare discussion with Ken Uptane, who's a really incredible thinker. He's also had this cool hand at the tiller at Essentia Water over you know, what's been probably a decade, more or less, growing this brand out of Seattle into one of the largest new age water brands in the country, and one that cracked $150 million last year. And beyond that, one that has really elegantly handled budget shortfalls, created a tribe around the brand, and then moved out of the incubation channels into much broader retail. And watching this brand grow and hearing Ken's insights into how you manage that growth is going to be really interesting. I'm really excited to hear Ken up on stage. Anecdotally, real quick, you know, he has been working on this brand for like 12, 15 years, something like that. And about five years ago, he decided to come to BevNET Live. He'd never really gone to any industry events. And that's when he attributes a lot of this starting to take off to him getting involved in the community at BevNET Live. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. I had a great sit down with him last year about it. It was awesome. Well, that's fantastic.
[00:11:15] Ad Read: I'm happy to take credit for Ken's I also have Vita Coco in my hand here. We've got Michael Kurban speaking on stage. We've got a lot of great speakers. You can find them all at bevnetlive.com and noshlive.com. Again, they're right around the corner, so visit sites, sign up. We'll see you there. Our first interview in this episode is with Clayton Christopher, speaking of great investors, a highly successful entrepreneur and investor best known as the co-founder of Sweet Leaf Tea, which was acquired by Nestle Waters in 2011, and Deep Eddy Vodka, which just five years after its launch was sold to Heaven Hill Distilling for a reported $400 million. Since then, he's joined up with the famous Rohan Oza and another investor, Brett Thomas, to launch Kavu, a very active food and beverage focused private equity shop. Editor-in-chief Jeffrey Klineman brings us this interview with Clayton Christopher. Let's have a listen.
[00:12:08] Clayton Christopher: This is Jeffrey Klineman, editor-in-chief of BevNET and Project Nosh here for Taste Radio with the esteemed Clayton Christopher, founder of Sweet Leaf Tea, Deep Eddy Vodka, and currently a managing partner at Kavu, a very high-rolling private equity firm in the nutritional, natural food and beverage space. As well as the cosmetic space now, how does it feel to be working with makeup?
[00:12:42] Justin Kendall: Well, we haven't made any cosmetic investments yet, but we've come close and we're certainly paying close attention to that category. There's a lot of disruption happening there, just like there has been in the food and beverage world for a while, but we Brad Avery lightly there because it's not exactly totally in our sweet spot. Yeah, but the ingredients are moving that way, which is interesting. Yeah, more transparent. I mean, you know, let's face it, you know, our millennials aren't eating Cheerios and drinking Coke like we were when we were kids. And they're also not buying as much Revlon and Estee Lauder like our parents were. So they're wanting more authenticity, good ingredients, you know, sourcing all the way to the field. And it's happening across the consumer product space.
[00:13:31] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. Which do you like better? That sort of scrappy startup, get it to the shelf, get the product right phase or the let's accelerate, put the pedal to the metal, heavy marketing, heavy pull phase?
[00:13:46] Justin Kendall: I'm probably too lazy these days to go through the scrappy startup again. Those are always memories you look back on, just sweet memories, and I cherish those days, you know, with the sweat and the blood and the tears of being in the trenches and scraping pennies together. And the lessons that you learn are invaluable there, because you can't read the book. You've got to live it. And so I kind of lived that, but the second time around with Deep Eddy, I didn't want to go through that again, because I'd been there once. And so I felt, in the early days of Sweet Leaf, if somebody had, like I said, dropped a million or $2 million in my lap, I wouldn't have known what to do with it. So I probably would have wasted it, you know, making some expensive mistakes. I learned what to do with it as we grew, and I raised more capital. But with Deep Eddy, I knew what to do with it out of the gate, so we moved pretty quickly.
[00:14:36] Clayton Christopher: Do you still have, I still have nightmares about ending up back in high school. Do you have Sweet Leaf scraping pennies nightmares?
[00:14:46] Justin Kendall: Not anymore. Not anymore. I got through this, but it was very motivating, because not having ever graduated from college, I knew if Sweet Leaf didn't work out, You know, I didn't want to be flipping hamburgers at McDonald's.
[00:14:59] Clayton Christopher: Now you're in a real teaching role and an enabling role for some of these smaller companies. Do you like that better or the entrepreneurial stuff better?
[00:15:11] Justin Kendall: Gosh, I like them both. I mean, I get to live vicariously. to a certain degree through the entrepreneurs that we work with. I think of my job now as kind of like half coach, half stripper, you know, helping them carry the load, helping them look for perhaps a blind spot that they don't see, opening doors that they may be having a tough time getting open. So, gosh, I love the entrepreneurial days, but I also love the intellectual challenge of, you know, we've got 16 portfolio, companies now and I learned from every one of those entrepreneurs and every one of those companies are getting to share those lessons kind of across all of our companies. One of the greatest lessons I'd say we learned from Sweet Leaf was just the, if you get knocked down seven times, get up eight times. And there's no doesn't mean no. It just means not yet or try a different way. And I can remember calling on Whole Foods for over a year, getting no calls back. And then finally getting this postcard in the mail that you could tell was like, you know, the buyer had a stack of them on their desk and they said, thank you, we are handwritten, not interested in your product at this time, you know, for further. And, you know, we found another way to get in there. We contacted the head of the distributor that at the time Whole Foods was distributing a lot of products internally. and just found another way to get into the store and get the Products Expo the shelf. And it was just that mindset of being super scrappy. And then knowing when she got in the store, we had to prove success. So many entrepreneurs get excited about landing the chains. And really, you gotta be excited about the velocity. They spend too much time focusing Jon Landis more stores versus creating a success story inside the individual stores.
[00:17:08] Clayton Christopher: Are there times when you're forced to tell that kind of story to portfolio companies to say, you know, get up, you can do this? Or is it more like get up because I did this, so you got to go do this?
[00:17:22] Justin Kendall: Absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of times what entrepreneurs just need to hear is some encouragement, you know, that they've got people around them that believe in them, that not just have capital in their companies, They're really encouraging and supportive. I mean, I've unfortunately seen too close at hand what a bad board environment can look like. And, you know, the healthiest management teams and the healthiest board dynamics is when you are surrounded by a group of people that really trust. and respect each other. And when you have that trust and respect, you can disagree with each other. But you disagree in a way that you know it's coming from a place of love. And when you feel that level of support, it really keeps you in a creative mindset. I mean, physicians have done MRIs on the brain. And when someone's given a hug, And they're in that state of trust and support, and they know they're in a safe environment. The brain is fully functioning. We're using all of our capacity, and that is when our creative ability is at its greatest. When we're feeling attacked from people that we don't trust, we as humans go into fight or flight mode. So I think I'm very sensitive to, and in terms of a board dynamic, to make sure that CEOs have that healthy board dynamic and unfortunately have had to force some people off boards at times because they were toxic to the board. And unfortunately have had to force people out of management teams. Also my own management teams and the management teams of companies when they create that environment. So I think that, you know, for entrepreneurs, making sure that they're surrounded with people that they trust, they can have healthy disagreement with each other and challenge each other, you know, I demand that.
[00:19:18] Clayton Christopher: It reminds me of one of the stories that you told on stage from the Sweet Leaf days, which is that many of the board meetings weren't geared around revenue goals.
[00:19:30] Justin Kendall: They were geared around strategic goals. Absolutely. Oftentimes on some new boards that I've joined, I see way too often that it's a one-sided dialogue. of kind of the management team or the CEO, CFO presenting the numbers and the data and kind of giving updates as to what's going on versus the way I feel the best board dynamic is, is one, have sharp, experienced people on your board that you trust that can be those sharpers and help you along the way. But most of the time, because that is, you know, that's precious time together, should be spent in open dialogue, working through your greatest challenges, your greatest opportunities, and your greatest problems, and helping solve those together.
[00:20:16] Clayton Christopher: How are we working to get this done together?
[00:20:19] Justin Kendall: Exactly. It should be a two-sided dialogue at all times, because, you know, if you've got great people on your board, you should absolutely lean on them to get there. At the end of the day, I don't want to run a business. That's the entrepreneur's job. I've done that. But I absolutely want to help that entrepreneur every way I can. And so that's got to be a two-way dialogue.
[00:20:41] Clayton Christopher: Although are there times from a board seat where you want to tell the entrepreneur, hey, it's time for you to trigger that fight response? outside of this room, back into the marketplace, back with the team?
[00:20:55] Justin Kendall: Absolutely. I mean, on numerous occasions, I've had tough conversations with entrepreneurs and basically said, you know, you need to lean in harder. You know, just because that didn't work out doesn't mean it's not going to work. You know, get back up, get back in the ring and go make it happen. Example. Example, Company X that I've been an investor in since it was an idea was looking to fund a project and they had been working on this for a while and it came back too expensive, didn't look like it was going to be a good ROI. And I knew in my gut and from experience that they weren't looking hard enough and that the ROI was going to be there and that by making this project successful, it was going to help them significantly. It was absolutely going to change the outcome of this company in a material way if they could get it done. And I knew they could get it done. So I basically told them, that's fine if the ROI isn't there, go find another location. And you've got to be committed to the project. Don't necessarily be committed to the specific tactic. You've got to be committed to the project overall. Yeah, and there's a tendency to say, well, we've got this, we need to protect this. There's a little bit like, hey, we tried, we gave it our best effort, you know, let's not pursue this anymore. And, you know, all the data said you absolutely need to pursue this. Let's just be smarter about it.
[00:22:28] Clayton Christopher: Knowing the kind of pressure that can come on an entrepreneur, both internally and externally from, say, a board, what are some effective ways you think that they should think about managing their life throughout the growth process?
[00:22:47] Justin Kendall: Look, growing a business can be extremely stressful, especially you've got usually other people's capital in there. A lot of people have worked very hard for that money. There's a lot of trust in you. There's a lot of responsibilities. You have responsibilities for the families and the people that are working for you, your team members. So I can completely empathize with the pressure that comes along with running a business. But at the end of the day, what we're doing is not brain science. It's not open heart surgery. Nobody's going to die. So I think it's easy to take our jobs too seriously. And don't get me wrong, we're doing important work here. I think you've got to believe in the Products Expo're creating and that we're disrupting for good and take a lot of pride that we're creating better products. But at the end of the day, Too many entrepreneurs, I think, take themselves too seriously. Sure. So practices that have helped me hold it more lightly, if you will, you don't get it from reading a book. I don't think there's this aha moment and you think about everything differently. It's practices. You know, there's daily practices that you can employ in your life that help change your outlook on life, your perspective, if you will, because if we're given to the ways of this world, It's never enough. We're never big enough. We're not fast enough. We don't have enough money. We don't have enough whatever. There's always a lacking of something when you read the tabloids and look on the billboards and watch TV. I think it has to be something daily, you know, whether it's getting outside for me, it's meditation, you know, it's, it's prayer. But it's hard when you're running an 18 hour day. It is, you know, my dad used to call it punch drunk. He's like, son, you've just, you've been in the ring too long.
[00:24:37] Clayton Christopher: We call it getting billied, which is my dad working out for three hours past the point of all comprehension and just sort of wandering around sounding like a, like an AM radio host.
[00:24:49] Justin Kendall: Yeah, it's taking time off, you know, and that's why I think getting away from the freaking phone and the computer and just shutting that stuff down at least for a solid day, you know, every week and focusing on things other than work, it makes you make smarter decisions. When we're less emotional, you're just going to make wiser choices. How long did it take you to learn that? Many many years.
[00:25:14] Clayton Christopher: Yeah, I'm still working on at least at least two companies, maybe three right right right Industry to industry though how tapped into that ability to let go is At Natural products food and beverage industry versus say, Wall Street, tech, banking, all these things that you see in the mix in Austin.
[00:25:40] Justin Kendall: That's a great, I mean, we're in such an amazing industry and this industry definitely supports that type lifestyle, I'd say, than a lot of others. You know, I think on Wall Street, you know, tell somebody that you wake up and meditate and pray and hike in the woods every weekend and they may look at you a little funny and say, wow, that's extra time that you could be making money. Whereas I think in At Natural food industry, they know that there's a deeper appreciation that you've got to take care of yourself in order to take care of other people, which is taking care of your business.
[00:26:14] Clayton Christopher: Although you read about meditation apps in the journal, you think this industry is starting to imprint...
[00:26:21] Justin Kendall: It's certainly becoming more in vogue. I think it tends to feel a little faddish, you know, on the Wall Streets of the world. I mean, Ray Dalio certainly does it on a daily basis and talks about it. But I think it's, you know, it's been alive and well within At Natural food industry for a while. But I think people just need to talk about it because it's real easy when you're running a fast-growing business to forget about that and not take care of yourself.
[00:26:46] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. I do want to talk about the influx of some of that investment class money into the business and how it compares to you as someone who grew out of the business. I mean, do you find the sort of institutional capital that's not coming from the entrepreneurial world has tilted At Natural products industry for the good or for the bad?
[00:27:18] Justin Kendall: So much capital has flown, come into this industry. I mean, it's grown exponentially. Like I said, when I started Sweetly, if it was $14,000 of my own money, and then a year later I raised $20,000 to help buy a second van. You don't hear as many of those stories anymore. Things are moving at a much faster pace. It's made it more expensive for a lot of brands. I think that there's a lot more competition. So it's much more competitive than it was 10 years ago. Just the number of brands, there's not necessarily more shelf space, but there's a lot more brands and there's a lot more capital. So you gotta be a lot smarter. You gotta surround yourself with the best and the brightest. I think the need for human capital is greater than it's ever been. The best and the brightest people aren't looking for work. They're gainfully employed, so I think it's paramount that entrepreneurs focus on attracting the best and the brightest, oftentimes finding great partners that have been there and done it a couple of times that they bring in on their boards as investors can help them attract those people faster.
[00:28:31] Clayton Christopher: Do you ever find yourself in a place where what I always thought of as sort of the Clayton and David method for getting things rolling fast isn't going to work here? And have you developed alternate strategies?
[00:28:45] Justin Kendall: Completely. I mean, the industry has changed tremendously, you know, direct to consumer and e-commerce. is growing quickly. It's here to stay. The way that consumers are shopping and purchasing is changing dramatically, and we've got to change with it. We're becoming digital and DTC and e-commerce experts. We have to. We've got two of our companies now that are, you know, north of $40 million in revenue and over 50% of their business is online. I think we're going to continue to see more of those companies. So I think entrepreneurs have got to get smart about e-commerce, about direct-to-consumer, because it's here to stay. And it's certainly something that we know at Cavu that we've got to become experts at or we're going to be irrelevant.
[00:29:34] Clayton Christopher: Yeah, absolutely. And it's also becoming an extremely expensive talent to bring on, right?
[00:29:42] Justin Kendall: It is. Luckily, you know, myself and Rohan and Brett have had some success before we started Cavu. So, you know, we significantly over-invest in infrastructure. Yeah. You know, we, I would say, have the talent on our team that looks like we're probably three or four times assets under management than we have.
[00:30:02] Clayton Christopher: Cool. Hey, Clayton, any last advice you'd give for the entrepreneurs who are going to be running around out there?
[00:30:11] Justin Kendall: Man, I would say enjoy the journey. The quality of a life is made up of the quality of one's memories along the way, the proverbial top of the mountain. uh, is overrated. I've been there on a couple occasions and it's, it's nice when the wire hits your account, but it's really the, the journey is more important than the destination. So, uh, don't, you know, don't forget to just appreciate and cherish the journey.
[00:30:39] Clayton Christopher: Well, best of luck on the journey as it goes on for you, sir. Thanks Jeff. Awesome spending time with you. For Taste Radio, I'm Jeffrey Klineman.
[00:30:53] Ad Read: So many great insights here. Clayton Christopher said, so many entrepreneurs get excited about landing the chains. And really, you got to be excited about the velocity. They spend too much time focusing Jon Landis more stores versus creating a success story inside the individual stores.
[00:31:09] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. He's always been great at managing chains and also figuring out ways to get those, those brands a little more active in those chains. I mean, clearly we got a beverage guy here, right? Cause when you talk about beverage, it's volume is the name of the game and he knows that. And this is something for smaller brands to take note of too. You know, if the further out you expand from your geographical area, the more trouble you have keeping up with maintaining your accounts and keep it close to home and work on getting those same store volume sales up and growing because that's really the key indicator that a lot of people are looking for. I'll never forget when David and Clayton told me that they had closed a nationwide DSD network Sweet Leaf. They were so proud. It's a rare feat. One other thing I think that's super important to take away from the interview is the care and feeding of the entrepreneur. And I think that Clayton, both from the investor and the CEO standpoint, seems to be really interested in that particular aspect, be it in a board situation or in terms of how an entrepreneur can keep a cool head.
[00:32:27] Ad Read: I like the way that Clayton Christopher is talking about an active board. There are a lot of boards out there that are just set up for companies to say, hey, I've got this person on my board and they don't ever actually meet. It's really important, I think, when you pick an investor and when you choose your board, to choose your board wisely and to have people who can bring something to the table for you and also who, per what Clayton is saying here, you know, you have that trust, you have that respect in our your kind of people.
[00:32:53] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. And it's funny because going back almost a decade, Clayton was talking about his board and even the investors on it were meeting with him about strategy. It wasn't so much focused on quarterly revenue. How are we getting to our next strategic goal? And you could see the results when they were able to sell Sweetleaf.
[00:33:23] Ad Read: I like that Clayton's tone in this interview was at times demanding. It was a really good example of how an investor thinks and what they expect. I also like the flip side of that, where at the end of the day, too many entrepreneurs, I think, take themselves too seriously.
[00:33:39] Clayton Christopher: He knows what it takes to get it done, both as an investor and as a CEO. And I think we can all take heed from what he was saying about meditation, prayer, taking some time to recenter yourself and do the things you need to do as an entrepreneur, because What we see every day is that it can go on and on. And you can work those 20-hour days. You can be strapped for cash. You can be worried about when your next house payment is coming. And it's amazing that most of these folks are able to stay incredibly centered as a route to success. This is one of the more unique interviews I think we do because this person, both these guys, John McDonnell, who we're going to hear from in a minute, and Clayton Christopher, both started a business. They ran it by themselves. They slowly grew it. They grew out to teams of tens and then hundreds of people, and they remained a leader. And a lot of what Clayton talks about is, you know, leadership qualities. And for a lot of the CEOs and founders out there who started their own business, The likelihood of you being able to be a leader for a group of 10 people and a group of 500 people is very low. At some point, you're going to need someone to help step in and help out with that kind of stuff. And this is a very rare type of person, this Clayton Christopher. you know, ability to go from one to hundreds. I think a lot of it is in all this leadership, in the transparency, in providing a roadmap and making sure everyone knows where you're going and having that level of trust from, you know, your boots on the street to your board members. It's important to keep that throughout the entire company every day and be leading by example.
[00:35:32] Ad Read: And making sure that you surround yourself with the best people who you know can help you get there. Because at some point, when you're the CEO of a 10-person company, it's a lot different than being the CEO of a 100-person company, and you need to let go of some things, and you need to have that trust.
[00:35:48] Clayton Christopher: You got to trust those people and value their input. And a lot of what Clayton talks about And what you were talking about, Jeff, with the meditation, being a leader isn't just trying to instill these properties into other people. It's by showing them yourself by living it and breathing it. And that's why he can talk this way, because he walks this way.
[00:36:11] Ad Read: Speaking of people that walk this way, let's go from one end-to-end entrepreneur to another. John McDonald is something of a godfather in the beer business, having founded iconic craft brand Boulevard Brewing in 1989. Since its launch nearly three decades ago, Boulevard has led the craft scene in the Midwest and is the largest specialty brewer in the region. Brewbound assistant editor Justin Kendall recently visited Boulevard HQ in Kansas City, Missouri, where he spoke with McDonald about the origins of the company and its early days as a pioneer of the craft beer category, through to its 2013 acquisition by Duvel Moortgat USA. As part of their conversation, McDonald shares war stories from Boulevard's journey and why he never allowed himself to believe that the company was going to succeed for a very long time.
[00:36:58] Clayton Christopher: This is Justin Kendall, assistant editor of Brewbound, and I'm here in Kansas City with Boulevard Brewing Company founder John McDonald. John, thanks for joining us on Taste Radio.
[00:37:07] Sweet Leaf: Well, thanks for having me, Justin.
[00:37:09] Clayton Christopher: Yeah, it's really cool to be back here in Kansas City and see the changes that have sort of popped up around the brewery.
[00:37:17] Sweet Leaf: Yeah, we've done a lot in the last five or six years, so it's amazing. I don't remember when you left, but it was... some time ago, right?
[00:37:26] Clayton Christopher: It was a couple of years ago. And I guess there's buildings everywhere now with the canning line that's up and Cellar 5 is up now. And I was here for the Beer Hall and that's such a beautiful facility and a great view of the city. So did you ever think that, you know, Boulevard would sort of develop in the way that it did?
[00:37:48] Sweet Leaf: No, never in my wildest dreams in the early days. I mean, I hoped that it would grow into a decent-sized business, but it amazes me how far we've come. And I think we're continuing to grow. And as you know, the beer business is tough right now for craft, but I think we're holding our own. Yeah, I think the future is bright.
[00:38:11] Clayton Christopher: It's been nearly 30 years since you delivered that first keg to Ponex, a Mexican restaurant here in Kansas City. What was it like to finally, you know, sell that first keg and start what's been a 30-year journey?
[00:38:27] Sweet Leaf: Wow, big question. I mean, a long time ago, I, well, I was a lot younger then, for sure. And, you know, it was kind of a crazy time. You know, we had to get all our ATF licensing and all that, I remember. And finally, when it was time to sell beer, we were like, well, who are we going to go to first? And I remember we had a little discussion on should we go you know, left down Southwest Boulevard towards the Kansas line, or should we go east into Missouri? And we decided to go to the Kansas line because it's only a quarter of a mile that way, and we thought that was a manageable thing. So we drove down the road and we went to our first place. which was Ponax, which is this Mexican restaurant. And they had said they would take the beer, but my first lesson that I learned that day was that you can't sell somebody a keg of beer until they run out of, you know, the keg they're gonna. So he didn't want to buy the keg from us. And I was like, dude, you have to buy the keg. And so finally, when I told him it was our very first sale, The guy that ran the place then, a guy named Chuck Mahold, he said, well, OK, we'll buy Keg and we'll tap it as long as you give me, you know, the first invoice, which was an invoice from the stationary company down the road that, you know, we wrote Ponax in on. It was totally generic. And I think that is still maybe down at Ponax. They made a big deal of it. So it kind of worked out for both of us.
[00:40:04] Clayton Christopher: That's a really cool souvenir that they have.
[00:40:07] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Clayton Christopher: So I guess in the late 1980s, when you basically cashed out your savings and borrowed your inheritance from your father in order to start the brewery, did you realize the level of risk that you were taking at the time?
[00:40:22] Sweet Leaf: Well, I was scared for sure. You know, I was scared about my money, but I was even more scared about losing the money that I had taken from investors who had invested in the brewery. So I was pretty intent on making the thing work in one way or another. Obviously, we had no plans to build a business the size that we did. But yeah, it's worked out well. And I think my father-in-law said it best. I think he said he was too stupid to know better, which is probably true. You know, I was just ate up with the whole idea of it. And I remember not really knowing exactly where we would go, but that we would figure that out as we went. And that's kind of really what we've done. And I've got a feeling that's what we're still doing. So, which isn't a bad place to be.
[00:41:14] Clayton Christopher: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about initially then, how hard was it to raise capital for a brewery? And how has that changed in, I guess, the current climate?
[00:41:28] Sweet Leaf: Well, then it was very hard to raise capital. I mean, I got the money from a lot of small investors, and I think it wasn't such a big amount that they would miss it if they lost it. which I think is a good thing. What was interesting at the time, though, there was absolutely no way I could get a bank loan, because I had over 50% of the equity in the startup, which is a lot for a startup to have that much equity cash. And I couldn't get any bank in Kansas City to even talk to me. So my father actually agreed to be the bank in the beginning, and he lent me, I don't know, $50,000 or something like that. And he finally cut me off and said, dude, not giving you any more money, and we had to make it work, and we did, we figured it out. How did you sort of figure it out? What was that? Well, you know, the business went a lot like my business plan said it was gonna go, except that we had spent a lot of our nest egg money to keep the business going. So we just didn't have that, and thanks to, I had a couple contractors that let me, one in particularly, our electrician, who I think we owed $80,000 or $90,000 to, And he let us slide for a whole year, as long as I called him at 8 o'clock on the first of every month and told him I was going to pay him. And back then it was before you had all these calendars and stuff. So, you know, I had a note on my desk calendar that said, call the electrician and tell him you were going to pay him. And we finally did pay him. So it was all good.
[00:43:17] Clayton Christopher: I bet he's happy. Yeah.
[00:43:18] Sweet Leaf: Yeah.
[00:43:19] Clayton Christopher: When we talked during the silver anniversary, I think that was like four years ago. you'd mentioned that there was a wholesaler that you took beer to.
[00:43:28] Sweet Leaf: Basically, one of the early lessons I learned in this business is you can't make people drink your beer. You know, they got to want to drink it. And I think back then, particularly, it just wasn't normal. You know, these guys were in the beer business. They only drank, you know, their brand of beer that they sold. And so, you know, I always just, said, well, if we can just get one or two of them to drink the beer. And that was usually the case. A couple of them did try it and like it. But, you know, they were no different than the rest of the cross section of America. You know, a few people were willing to go outside of what they just knew to try something different. But I always said, too, that even though people don't like your beer, if they like you or they like your company, then they're going to keep giving it a try, I think. And I think we really kind of sold that and tried to, you know, befriend and do good work with our wholesalers and support them. And I think they were appreciative of that. And we sort of won them over, I think, over time. It wasn't easy, actually.
[00:44:39] Clayton Christopher: It sounds like it was really in knowing that you can't force them to drink it and befriending them. It sounds like you were able to really rally people behind the brand.
[00:44:50] Sweet Leaf: Yeah, I think so. I think back then, you know, craft brewing today is pretty commonplace. You know, they're popping up like mushrooms. And so it's accepted. But back then it was not accepted. And so it was a slow, steady selling of the idea of it and the flavor profile of it. I can remember, uh, You know, the first times we showed beer wholesalers our unfiltered wheat beer and they were like, you're crazy. There's no way somebody is going to drink a cloudy beer in the Midwest. You know, if it's not clear, they're going to think something's wrong with it and they're not going to drink it. Of course, we went on to sell a whole lot of cloudy beer and still do.
[00:45:34] Clayton Christopher: At what moment did you realize Boulevard was going to succeed?
[00:45:38] Sweet Leaf: Well, you know, that's a tough question. I, uh, you know, I kind of never really allowed myself to believe it was going to succeed for a long, long, long, long time because I always thought something bad was going to happen at some point. And so I don't know. I mean, we've been successful, but, you know, a business is just, even if it's successful, it's full of challenges all the time. You know, and I think that one of the things that destroys good businesses is a lack of caring about the business. And I think when you allow yourself to believe you've gotten there, it's probably time to kind of move on because A business is always challenging. Even the good ones, I think, are constantly in need of retooling and reworking and working on all the aspects that don't work, like how you take care of your people, and how do you do that as a company gets bigger? It becomes much, much harder. So it's just a constant battle, I think. You know, I know that after two or three years, we were at least able to pay our bills and we're kind of growing. And, you know, I was lucky that—I'm not a financially very astute person, actually. I am more interested in— operational side. Actually, the making of the beer was, you know, the part I liked the most. And the engineering, even though I'm not an engineer, but I like all that kind of stuff, the doing part of it. And I was lucky to have, you know, Jeff Crum as a CFO who really took care of the financial side of the business. And so I really didn't worry about it too much. You know, I think a lot of business people do. I'm not or wasn't that kind of business person. I was more focused on brewing and the society of brewing and the social aspects of brewing. So that was kind of my thing.
[00:47:44] Clayton Christopher: John, you mentioned the sale to Duvel Moortgat in 2013, and you really seemed to be sort of at the forefront of a time right before a lot of other major craft brewers decided to sell. There was Founders and Ballast Point and Lagunitas and many others from then on. Why was that the right move at that time for you?
[00:48:11] Sweet Leaf: Well, I don't know. I'm probably just a little older than those guys. But I don't know. It was a combination of things. A little bit of it was, I'll go back to what I said kind of before, I think that maybe I was getting a little too relaxed in my situation and trying to plan for the future and do the right thing. I felt like we needed You know, we needed to make some changes. And I really never looked at it just for the money. I looked at it, who would be the best partner for us? And you know, when I look out there, I can tell you I like the Duval guys a lot. They've been really good partners. But it hasn't been easy. But I'm sure glad that we're with a brewer that understands brewing, that isn't just money motivated, And I believe that we're in it for the long haul. So, you know, when I look back, I can't think of a better thing that I could have done other than possibly do some sort of an ESOP thing. But I did study ESOPs over a 10-year period before I sold the brewery. And for whatever reason, we never went there. And the one thing I do know about ESOPs is when times are good, is when you should do the ESOP, and you should have it all done by the time things are bad so that everybody's used to running the business. Because if you don't, it can be troublesome and problematic.
[00:49:50] Clayton Christopher: For brewers out there who are in a situation where they might be ready to find a strategic partner or to sell, what advice would you offer them?
[00:50:01] Sweet Leaf: Well, I think the landscape has changed greatly since I sold the brewery to Duval. So, I don't know. I think one thing that somebody told me when I was thinking about selling is, You know, make sure whoever you sell it to, you'd like to sit and have a beer with them after work. And I still feel that way with Michelle. I mean, you know, I really like the guy and I, you know, wish him the best and I love it when I see him and a lot of the D'Youville people. And so I think, you know, you have to feel pretty good about the person you're going to sell your brewery to, you know. And so, you know, I was lucky, though, because it wasn't for me, it wasn't completely a money motivated thing. So I was able to really pick what I thought was the best solution for me. And I think that might not be the best solution for other people. I also think for some small brewers, selling to ABI or Miller Coors is not a bad solution. You know, it might be the right thing for them. You know, it gives them immediate distribution. There's a lot of value there. But it has changed, and I think there are fewer buyers, and I think they're You know, I think it's just a different world today than it was when I sold the Arbury. How involved have you stayed in the business since selling? Well, I would like to think I was fairly involved for a while, but recently I've been remodeling a cabin down on my farm. And so, I don't know, they might fire me one of these days. I don't know. I've not been showing up for work like I should. But it's almost done, so I plan on kind of spending a little more time. And it's really an interesting, we've gotten to be good friends with the Firestone Walker people, and of course to get to know the Oma Gang folks. And I think we're all getting used to being a little bit bigger family. And there's a lot of distance between the three breweries here in the United States, but then there's the wealth of knowledge and experience from Belgium. You know, my daughter now sells beer for Duval and Boulevard Brewing Paris. So, you know, it's kind of interesting. We're kind of part of more of an international flavor.
[00:52:23] Clayton Christopher: Do you see potential for those entities to all sort of work together and collaborate in some way?
[00:52:32] Sweet Leaf: I do. I think there's been a lot of it done. But I think that's one of the real challenges is how do you do that over lots of miles and lots of people. But we've got a lot of really good people that work within the organization. If you look at all of Belgium and what's in the United States now, I think there's a lot of possibilities. And so I think it's up to us to all to work together and figure out how we're going to make this a really great business.
[00:53:03] Clayton Christopher: A couple of years back, I think you had started working on a project in Kansas City's East Bottoms to sort of breathe new life into that area. Where is that project at this point?
[00:53:14] Sweet Leaf: I'll tell you, I leased part of that building to a local distillery called the Rieger Distillery. And I just recently sold them the main building that I own, but I still own a bunch of other property down there that I plan on developing. And I don't know where it's going to go. It's very close to downtown. old brewery site. In Kansas City, we have the West Bottoms, which is already kind of coming back and a popular place. It's where we have Boulevardia every year. And then the East Bottoms is sort of the stepchild of the West Bottoms. But I like it over there. And I have a little bit of an office there. And I don't know where it's going exactly, but I'd like to see it develop in some way. I think it's kind of a rundown area, but I don't know. I see a lot of opportunity there.
[00:54:06] Clayton Christopher: And that's where the old Heim bottling plant was, the Heim brewery bottling plant.
[00:54:11] Sweet Leaf: Heim brewery and bottling plant were there. It was interesting. The Rieger guys, I knew it was there. There was an old tunnel that was dug between the brewery buildings and the bottle shop that we owned. And I could see where the door was forever. But once I sold the building to the Rieger guys, they decided to, in their spare time, they pried the concrete away and they dug, I don't know, 20 feet down the thing and found all this stuff. But I don't think they, I think they've stopped. I think they've worn out. Didn't find any buried treasure or anything. But I'm sure that during Prohibition, you know, people were running booze, you know, through there because the Heim Brewery closed in 1917. And that building, the bottle shop, was bought by the Abner Hood Chemical Company. And the Abner Hood Chemical Company had a license to sell food-grade ethanol. And so you can imagine, All the hooch in Kansas City was probably coming out of the Abner Hood Chemical Company, which was the old bottle shop from the Heim Brewery. And I've got a feeling they probably went down that tunnel and came out in the brewery somewhere, which it was no longer a brewery. It's pretty cool.
[00:55:31] Clayton Christopher: That's very cool. And that seems to be another way that maybe you're trying to build upon the legacy that you've already sort of built with Boulevard here by revitalizing that area. Is that sort of how you view it?
[00:55:46] Sweet Leaf: A little bit of that. I mean, you know, where the brewery was now, where the brewery is now, looked a lot like the East Bottoms 30 years ago. So, I mean, it was a pretty rundown area here. And through DST and a lot of people that have rebuilt it, it's really come back. And I really believe that I'm a big believer that cities are super important. I mean, Kansas City was a classic white flight suburban city that didn't have a whole lot going on 20 or 30 years ago, but today has become a very vibrant and interesting city, and I think due to, you know, people like me and the brewery and the people that have sort of built businesses here and grown the city.
[00:56:31] Clayton Christopher: Well, John, thank you so much for joining us on Taste Radio today. I'm really appreciative of your time, so.
[00:56:38] Sweet Leaf: Yeah, Justin, thanks a lot. It was good to see you again.
[00:56:39] Clayton Christopher: Great to see you.
[00:56:40] Sweet Leaf: Come back anytime.
[00:56:41] Ad Read: I plan on it. We're now joined by Justin Kendall. Justin, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. You guys remember the first boulevard you tried? Mine was a Tank 7, and it was mind-blowing. I mean, I remember the first time I had a Tank 7, and I was like, hell yeah.
[00:57:00] Clayton Christopher: I loved Tank 7, but my first was a Wheat. Mine was a long, strange trip, baby.
[00:57:07] Ad Read: So in the interview, Justin, John said, even though people don't like your beer, if they like you or they like your company, they're going to keep giving it a try. Talk a little bit about craft beer as a relationship business, as a passion play. Is this still a strategy today?
[00:57:22] Clayton Christopher: Oh, it's definitely a strategy today. That's one of the big things about Boulevard is that they've really done a good job of building relationships in their home market. You kind of see that with their partnership with the Kansas City Royals. There's a giant smokestack in the outfield of the Coffman Stadium. And they're just all over town. They're in every bar, every restaurant. They're in, you know, every concert venue. They're all over Kansas City. I mean, they've really built themselves as the Kansas City brand.
[00:57:55] Ad Read: Jon said, I never allowed myself to believe Boulevard was going to succeed for a long, long time. I mean, is this a mindset we often see in craft? And why do you think that is?
[00:58:05] Clayton Christopher: There's really the narrative of, you know, Big Beer versus Kraft. So there's always that underdog David versus Goliath fight going on or, you know, narrative that they've sort of created. I think probably one of the crisis points for Kraft right now is they don't know how to kind of handle the success of the category that the fact that some of these brands are getting bought and that some of these brands are successful nationally kind of takes away that David feel to them and all of a sudden they have to face their own success.
[00:58:47] Ad Read: And the way that they build these businesses is based on, you know, better ingredients, better beer, you know, this sense that they're going to create this product that is going to be a cut above. And, you know, there's this unspoken message between craft breweries that you're not going to sell out. And it's interesting because what is selling out? Why shouldn't you succeed in the business of beer? Exactly.
[00:59:12] Clayton Christopher: And I think one of the things that McDonald's spoke to really well is how to succeed with a little bit of class and live with yourself. Yeah. There are multiple perspectives in craft. I mean, there's the ego driven businesses where the founder is sort of you know, very bombastic, such as like a Tony McGee from Lagunitas. But then there's, you know, John McDonald who maybe exudes some of that, you know, Midwestern values sort of, you know, neighborly, you know. Absolutely.
[00:59:48] Ad Read: Because he's taking time off to build his cabin or?
[00:59:51] Clayton Christopher: Just in general, I mean, Boulevard has always been sort of like a good neighbor thing, not to steal Narragansett's tagline. It's a show me beer. Yeah.
[01:00:04] Ad Read: He said one of the things that destroys good businesses is a lack of caring about the business. When you allow yourself to believe you've gotten there, it's probably time to move on. But I didn't get a sense in the interview that he stopped caring about the business.
[01:00:16] Clayton Christopher: No, I don't think he ever stopped caring about the business. I think it's a little bit of feeling too comfortable when you feel too comfortable. Maybe it's time, you know, to reevaluate and shuffle the deck a little. And I guess looking at, you know, the dual deal, there was a lot of things that the company has been able to do. after that, you know, they were able to grow in ways that they probably wouldn't have been able to with just, you know, John running the show, you know, they've added a canning line. They've increased their capacity considerably. They built a recreation and tap room. That's become really, you know, like a gathering spot in town, like a hub for Kansas City.
[01:01:00] Ad Read: Exactly. One of the things that he said, we just talked about, you know, this concept of selling out, and I'm doing the air quotes. He said, finding the right acquisition partner is critical, and Anheuser-Busch or Miller Coors might be the right partner for some. Is this a statement, Justin, that you'd expect from the founder of one of the top craft producers?
[01:01:18] Clayton Christopher: No, because it's always, we talked a little bit about that narrative of us versus them, you know, big beer versus craft beer. It's not really typical of something you'd hear from somebody in the craft club, but it's also a pretty level-headed response from somebody who realizes that, you know, your journey may be different than my journey.
[01:01:40] Ad Read: Yeah, I'm wondering if this is one of those, you know, tipping points for the beer industry where you start to see, you know, someone from craft who clearly is one of the beers that defines what craft is. You know, craft personified boulevard, you know, having this kind of change of heart and realizing that there are a lot of different kinds of outcomes for the craft community.
[01:01:58] Clayton Christopher: Growth can change what the party line typically is. Well, Landis, you mentored before.
[01:02:05] Ad Read: You've got to reinvent yourself. You know, it's one of those things where the CEO, when he was the CEO of a one person company or a 50 person company is very different than now.
[01:02:14] Clayton Christopher: And to think of our perception of Boulevard today, how different it is from our perception of them in 2012 before they sold the Duval and in 2013 afterwards and, you know, in the early 90s when people in Kansas City were enjoying their local, you know, homegrown brand, which Justin in our meeting told us that the truck on front of some of their bottles is still that truck that delivered the first kegs of Boulevard. So there's still you know, essences of that original brand and story, but it's evolved so many times that it almost gets completely reinvented in the minds of the consumer. And it's just something for your company to look out for that as years go by, you know, people will be introduced to your brand and have a completely new perception of them and someone who knew you two years ago. And you got to be comfortable with that evolution to be able to succeed. I think that's a really good point, John. A lot of what we're talking about is giving me flashbacks to the Peter Rahal episode of RxBar where he's talking about not being extroverted and needing to overcome that. John McDonald similarly had not the most optimistic sense maybe of seeing long term success for the business from the onset and realize that he needs to be challenged and maybe get bored if things just kind of go as they go. And those are exactly what I was talking about in that episode. It's not about having all the things that you think you need to win. It's about identifying the areas that you know you need to change and finding the areas that you know you need to address as a leader. To that point, I think that John recognized that the financials weren't his strong suit. So he went out and he got a CFO named Jeff Crum, who was able to sort of help the business there. He had Bob Sullivan helping him, you know, he built a team that was there to sort of fill in those gaps. So I think that's an important point to make that if you feel that you're not strong in an area, then, you know, find somebody who's going to fill those gaps.
[01:04:20] SPEAKER_??: Yep.
[01:04:20] Ad Read: It's great how we had Clayton Christopher set them up and John McDonald just came and knocked them all down, right? I mean, we had the points made and then John McDonald was living all those points without explicitly making them. Well, let's move on to our Elevator Talk here. Kabir Gambhir is the founder and CEO of Bevvia, a recently launched brand that markets innovative tonics made with organic coffee fruit, ginger, and botanicals. Kabir recently visited BevNET's West Coast branch in San Diego, where he joined us for an interview included in this edition of Elevator Talk.
[01:04:55] Nestle Waters: It's time for our Elevator Talk, where we put a founder in an elevator with their dream investor. Let's hear what happens. What is your company's mission?
[01:05:04] Deep Eddy: Well, our mission is to create drinks that sustain and uplift you, in addition to sustaining and uplifting our planet. Everyone in our company stands by our mantra, which is every drink matters. Everything we do can benefit ourselves, in the planet, one bottle at a time. It benefits farmers, it benefits their communities, and most importantly, it allows us to share this amazing and untapped resource.
[01:05:38] Nestle Waters: What is your product and how is it different?
[01:05:40] Deep Eddy: Well, our wellness tonics are made from organic coffee fruit, ginger, and a variety of botanicals. We've crafted these super fruit drinks to be full of flavor while also being low in sugar and lightly caffeinated. We've recognized the value of coffee production waste, and we've taken that and upcycled it, and we're using this in our drinks. There's no other Products Expo the market that's as sustainable, healthy and delicious as our tonics.
[01:06:14] Nestle Waters: Who is your target audience and how do you quantify the market opportunity?
[01:06:18] Deep Eddy: We've spent a little over a year in San Diego selling and sampling our drinks on draft at lots of restaurants. We've also attended dozens of events, beer festivals, and different farmers markets, so we can learn firsthand about our market. Fortunately, most people love our drinks, and we've learned that the people that gravitate towards our flavors and functional benefits include locavores, or people who like to eat food produced regionally, urban foodies, and definitely working professionals. Everyone who really loves our drinks tend to be very mindful of their health and wellness as well.
[01:07:07] Nestle Waters: What has been the biggest surprise in starting your company?
[01:07:10] Deep Eddy: A little over a year ago, a very large coffee company that many of us know came out with a drink made from coffee fruit, also known as Cascara. And we were really excited because this company spent a lot of money on marketing and education, and we felt that their marketing efforts would help our own because we were a new company sharing the benefits of this amazing fruit. In reality, we felt that something was lost in translation. The coffee fruit and cascara was buried under really strong flavors, and it didn't relate well. It was hard for people to grasp. So we felt that we needed to change our own marketing language and strategy. And as a result of that lesson, the feedback has been great and the reception has been incredible about how we've recently positioned ourselves.
[01:08:11] Nestle Waters: What stage of growth is your company in?
[01:08:13] Deep Eddy: We are definitely very early stage. Most of the folks that founded Bevia, including myself, we've not focused on growth out of the gate. Rather, we focused on having a really strong understanding of the market, our competition, and where we believe will have the greatest impact. It's as if we've been training for a race and we've been prepping and doing all of our exercises, but we've not entered the race yet. But now, since we've done all of our preparation, we feel like we're ready and we're gonna run as fast as we can.
[01:08:55] Nestle Waters: What do you need from a partner or an investor to go next level?
[01:08:58] Deep Eddy: Well, aside from capital, we'd love to work with an investor that really understands the food and beverage value chain from top to bottom. We know there'll be lots of challenges, but having a strategic partner or an experienced investor will definitely point us in the right direction.
[01:09:19] Nestle Waters: Why should I invest in you?
[01:09:20] Deep Eddy: Well, I'm relentless. I'm very creative and I'm passionate in everything I do. I'm definitely not a rookie to startups. I've spent 19 years in the med device industry in a number of roles. I became really good over the years at translating ideas into something real and tangible. From developing products into something that is disruptive and unique. And I've taken all of those experiences in my years in MedDevice and used that to create this amazing and unique line of drinks.
[01:10:09] Ad Read: Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thanks to our guests, Clayton Christopher, John McDonald, Justin Kendall, and Kabir Gambhir. Once again, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of John and Jeff, I'm Mike, and we'll talk to you next time.
