[00:00:10] Trey Lockerbie: Hello, and thanks for tuning into the Top Podcast for the food and beverage industry, Taste Radio. I'm editor and producer Ray Latif, and you're listening to episode 182, which features an interview with Greg Vetter, the co-founder and CEO of groundbreaking organic dressing brand Tessamaze. Tune in on Friday, October 4th for episode 54 of our Taste Radio Insider Podcast, when we're joined by Ashley and Trey Lockerbie, the co-founders of fast-growing kombucha brand Betterbooch, who joined us for a conversation about the good, the bad, and the ugly of a brand revamp. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. Of course, we'd love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Greg Vetter doesn't pull any punches, at least he didn't in my conversation with him. His transparency is on par with that of the brand he co-founded, Tessamaze, which makes organic dressings and condiments known for their simple and clean ingredient lists. Greg and his two brothers launched Tessamaze in 2009 and the brand almost immediately got off to a hot start, as in breaking single week sales records at Whole Foods Hot. In the years that followed, Tessamaze continued upon its rapid rise and was pegged as one of the next great natural food brands. Things have since cooled off, however, and Tessamaze, while still a well-respected brand with a loyal following, has faced a number of challenges. I met with Greg in Baltimore, a few miles away from Tessamaze headquarters, for a conversation about the brand's impressive start and how a decade in development has come with huge wins and unexpected losses. Greg also explains why Tessame's, quote, positively intense approach is not for everyone, the undesirable association with bro culture, why he has some regrets about revealing sales projections, and why he has a different perspective on growth for the company than in the past. Hey, folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. I am in Baltimore, Maryland, and sitting with me right now is Greg Vetter, the CEO and co-founder of Tessie Maze. Greg, thanks so much for being with me. I'm excited. I'm excited as well. I told you this before we got on the mics. I'm embarrassed to say this. I tried my first bottle of Tessie Maze this past weekend. And I brought it home for my family to try. And we got these wonderful heirloom organic tomatoes, locally grown. And my wife put some tessimes, this lemon garlic dressing on the tomatoes, and people went nuts.
[00:02:42] Greg Vetter: People loved it. The original. Yeah.
[00:02:44] Trey Lockerbie: The OG. The OG. Yeah. Let's talk about the original and how you came up with this company, because you have an interesting background. Yep. Before you were an entrepreneur, you were a professional lacrosse player?
[00:02:55] Greg Vetter: for three years, yes. And then I was also doing employee benefits, so selling insurance and human resources to companies. So I would use myself as an example of, hey, if you have employees like me, you probably need really good benefits and human resources because you never know what someone's going to do. Gee, Greg, that sounds like an incredible job. I can't imagine why you quit. It was one of those jobs when you got to a certain kind of financial point, you're like, I don't think I want to do this for the rest of my life at all.
[00:03:28] Trey Lockerbie: I can imagine you would. I mean, it sounds like one of those things where you're sitting at a desk, earning a paycheck, you've got benefits, but what does that all mean? A lousy life. Yeah. Yeah. You don't care. So how did the idea of starting a dressing company, originate.
[00:03:47] Greg Vetter: The idea found me. I didn't realize that salad dressing could be a business. I wanted to start a business. But it happened when I came home for lunch. My mom used to make me two liter bottles of the lemon garlic dressing because it didn't exist. So my brothers had it in their college homes, and I had it in my townhouse with my wife. And I came home for lunch, and this two liter bottle of salad dressing was missing. And you do not misplace a two liter bottle of salad dressing. So I started calling all my neighbors, and I finally get to this guy who doesn't eat salad. He's a fast food guy. And I said, hey man, random question, have you seen my salad dressing? And he, yup, woke up this morning, was jonesing for it, hopped on the scooter, knew the code to your house, and now I'm over at my house crushing a salad. And I said, OK, well, can you bring it back? And he's like, oh, for sure. And I just thought to myself, what kind of man steals another man's salad dressing? And I decided at that moment that I was going to bottle it, and we were going to start a company, and we were going to take this lemon garlic dressing to the world. Not knowing anything about the food industry.
[00:04:56] SPEAKER_??: Nothing.
[00:04:57] Greg Vetter: Nothing.
[00:04:57] Trey Lockerbie: What did your family think about this idea?
[00:04:59] Greg Vetter: Initially, they said it was never going to work. Actually, my mom said that. My brothers and my wife.
[00:05:04] Trey Lockerbie: Your mom, of her own recipe, said no one's going to buy this.
[00:05:07] Greg Vetter: Yeah, no. My wife and my brothers were like, OK, well, let's see what happens. And I said, if I can get us into Whole Foods, then that's really going to be the test. And if it goes well, then we will triple down. you know, bet our lives on this thing. And so I Googled my way into becoming a food manufacturer. We got in for the grand opening of the new Annapolis Whole Foods May 1st, 2009. I set up a demo with a local lettuce company, and we sold 60 bottles of salad dressing in 30 minutes when the store opened. And that was kind of our sign that, wow, people really like this. We should probably do more of it. And so then over the course of the week of that grand opening, we set a national sales record, sold 650 bottles out of one store of one SKU. And that's when we, well, I liquidated my 401k, my wife's 401k. I took out 20 credit cards and we embarked on the Tessie Mays journey. Only 20. Yeah, as many as I could get until they said you can't have any more. And so for the first year, it was me and my mom pretty much. And then my wife was helping buy raw materials and order things. And my brother Brian and Matt were helping do demos in store. We did a lot of demos. And after a year, we kind of made a decision that we're either going to triple down everything or we're going to just get rid of this thing. And so we decided, all right, let's see what it's going to take to be the number one selling salad dressing in the Mid-Atlantic region of Whole Foods. So I got my dad to sign over his house, and we got a line of credit. And we ended up opening our own manufacturing because nobody could co-pack it to the quality that we needed. And we became the number one selling salad dressing in the Mid-Atlantic region, which then kind of gave us a really good sample size and indicator the country is going to like it because the mid-Atlantic region of Whole Foods actually stretched into Ohio and Kentucky. And so a lot of people were saying, oh, you know, people aren't going to buy it because it's not local. And we were in, you know, Lexington, Kentucky. And I'm like, they don't think Annapolis is local. And so I really think we have legs and this is going to work.
[00:07:25] Trey Lockerbie: I gotta ask, because I think I read this somewhere. For that first Whole Foods sale, did you bring the guy lunch? Is that what I read?
[00:07:31] Greg Vetter: So for the first ever yes, we didn't have a bottle. We weren't a real company. And so I brought him a salad in a Tupperware container with lemon garlic dressing on it. You had a scheduled meeting? Yes. OK. Yeah. scheduled meeting, meet me at the Annapolis Whole Foods, find me, you know, I'll be walking around. That's as close as you're going to get for a scheduled meeting. So I'm walking around the store with this Tupperware container and he's like, okay, man, where's the packaging? Where's the product? And I'm like, you're busy. It's lunch. I brought you a salad. And he looks at me like I'm on drugs. And I go, have some. And he just takes this piece of wet lettuce out of this Tupperware container, doesn't even eat the lettuce, licks the dressing off, and goes, this is the best salad dressing I've ever had. You need to call the regional office. And so that was the first yes ever.
[00:08:26] Trey Lockerbie: And so from that point, you're like, OK, now I need to find a manufacturer.
[00:08:29] Greg Vetter: So I went to the regional meeting. The guy's name is Eric Brown. He's a Massachusetts guy. Right on. He had a similar reaction. You know, I brought him a Tupperware container. He looked at me like I was on drugs, tried it, and basically said, yeah, you know, fill out 200 pages of paperwork, bring four cases from the grand opening, and, you know, shoo, shoo. And so I just started Googling. What is a HACCP plan? Where do I find a certified kitchen? Where do I find food scientists? And so I Googled my way through 200 pages of food manufacturing paperwork, sent it all over, got it all approved, got the packaging approved, got in for the grand opening, and, you know, the rest is history.
[00:09:13] Trey Lockerbie: So initially, you used a co-manufacturer, a co-backer for it?
[00:09:16] Greg Vetter: No, we handmade it.
[00:09:17] Trey Lockerbie: You handmade it?
[00:09:18] Greg Vetter: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Trey Lockerbie: You found like a community kitchen or a shared kitchen?
[00:09:20] Greg Vetter: Yeah, certified kitchen. Yeah. It was a rib restaurant in Eastport, which is in Annapolis, and I knew the owner. And I said, I don't have any money to give you, but I need to come in when you guys close, and we're going to hand-make salad dressing. And he's like, I'm not letting you in when we close. And I said, what am I going to take, man? Fountain sodas and uncooked ribs? And so he laughed, and he said, all right, yeah, I'll let you in. And I said, I'll give you free salad dressing for life. Come on, that's a great deal. And so he let us do that for three years. Are you still giving him free salad dressing? Of course. Right on. Brian Toomey, shout out to my man. So what was that? What was the next step? We were in 68 Whole Foods. We were in the Mid-Atlantic region and the South region and we had just got approval for the Rocky Mountain region. We were going region to region pitching it. And we're looking for like 6,000 square feet for manufacturing. And this 36,000 square foot perishable food manufacturing facility came on the market in Essex, Maryland, which is seven miles up Pulaski Highway, I guess north of the city. And so we just made an offer, you know, an as-is, we'll take it, tiered lease. You guys don't have to do anything to it, just let us move in. So then we got an SBA loan for a piston filler. What year was this, by the way? I mean, how far? This was October of 2012.
[00:10:50] Trey Lockerbie: So you were three years in.
[00:10:51] Greg Vetter: Yeah. OK. And so we signed the lease. I had to sign over my house and my dad's house as collateral for the lease. And then it was, you know, Vetter Brothers and my wife and my family and everybody, we kind of looked at each other and go, well, we got to fill it up now, right? We can't pay the rent if we're only in 68 Whole Foods. So then we went into aggressive sales mode and, you know, we filled it up. So. And the facility is affectionately known as? The Tree Fort. The Tree Fort. Yeah. Why? I mean, that's where cool stuff happens when you're a kid. And so, you know, now we're adults and we still think cool stuff happens there.
[00:11:32] Trey Lockerbie: Was the role of CEO always what you wanted? Were you always the right person to run the company? Did you ever think maybe one of your brothers or someone from outside, you know, would be better off doing this?
[00:11:42] Greg Vetter: I always wanted it. I think In the brother dynamic, I think I'm the best one to run it out of Vetter Brothers. I think each one of us has a very strong skill set. Our youngest brother Matt is really kind of perfect for clean manufacturing and inventing that and figuring all of that out, you know, with the help of us. And then if you've ever met my brother Brian, you know, he can sell ketchup popsicles to a woman in white gloves. So, you know, he was just kicking down doors and not taking no for an answer. And so, you know, I kept the vision going and the innovation side and the design side and kind of the brand, right? So my job was build the brand, build the people and lead by example. And so, you know, we in a trifecta did that. My wife in the beginning was our chief operating officer for the first five or six years. She's good at following rules, us not so much. And then we ended up having four kids and so she took some time off, but now runs all of our marketing and brand stuff. So she does a good job with that.
[00:12:53] Trey Lockerbie: You know, in reading about you before the interview, there have been articles about Jesse Mays and about you and your brothers. And there's a bit of this word bro that comes up. You know, what are your thoughts on that? Like being called a bro and, you know, being part of the bro culture and food and Bev.
[00:13:10] Greg Vetter: So I kind of blame Wayne Wu from VMG because he would always say the better bros because we're brothers and we always traveled together and we're very energetic and we're very intense. And so- And for context, how's Wayne involved in- He's not. Okay. It was just like we would see him around and he would give us his two cents and he is a big fan of Tessie Mays and we think he's a smart guy and does a good job. And then when you're kind of a young brand and you're trying to get people to care, people call you and you hire PR firms and you do all this stuff and they say, hey, this magazine really wants to do an article with this angle, how three lax bros took on the salad dressing world. And you're like, sure, if that's gonna get us in fill in the blank magazine, we played lacrosse and we're brothers. It's not not true. Right. If you want to consider us in the bro culture because we're. Former athletes. Yeah. Former athletes and we're brothers and we're intense and OK. But you know when I think about bro culture I think about you know the tank top backwards hat frat boy and I would not say I fall into that category. I'm not getting that either.
[00:14:32] SPEAKER_??: No. No.
[00:14:32] Trey Lockerbie: Has it ever hurt you though? I mean, it sounds like it's gotten you into some magazines, some publications, it's gotten you some interviews and definitely exposure for the brand. But has there been an instance where you're like, hey, I don't want to hang out with those guys because I've heard they're like bros?
[00:14:45] Greg Vetter: Usually you don't know if it hurts you because the people that say they don't want to hang out with us, you never hang out with them. But I do think we hear more often than not, we are not what they expected, right? So we are positively intense. You could throw us in the aggressive category. But we are super passionate. You know, one of our core values is have passion, bleed love, and spit fire. We have that. And that's not for everybody. And so our joke about the Vetter Brothers and Vedders in general, right, because we have 10 kids between the three brothers. Oh, my gosh. Is you will never find someone that says, I kind of like the Vedders. They either love us or they hate us. And I'm all right with that. Makes things very clear.
[00:15:31] Trey Lockerbie: Can you work in business with someone who doesn't like you?
[00:15:35] Greg Vetter: in terms of our culture or as a partner? As a supplier partner, as a retail partner, distributor? It depends. I think it all at the end of the day, we're trying to find really great authentic relationships in our lives because it's our life and we want to be working with people that we like. You want to minimize stress and pain and if you don't have to deal with it. I think we're at a point in our company and our culture and our journey that for the most part, we don't have to deal with people that we don't enjoy being around. So if people don't like us and they want to treat us like shit, then we're not going to be around with you. We're not going to hang out with you. And so we try and work with people we really care about. And all of our retail partners are amazing, and they believe in the journey, and they understand who we are and what we're doing. But it's taken 10 years to get there, because in the beginning, you're shouting from the rooftops that, please believe that this is going to work, and that my product is worth it, and all these great things. And then you realize that some people aren't worth your time. And maybe that was a waste of time. And maybe you weren't being as authentic as you should have been, because you were trying to get into a magazine, three lax bros, take on salad dressing, or whatever. But as you grow and age through this process, and it does age you, you look at the world a little bit different as you get older.
[00:17:03] Trey Lockerbie: You gotta like your investors, and they've gotta like you too, right? One of your most prominent investors is Kevin Plank, the founder of Under Armor, which is also based here in Baltimore. How'd that come together?
[00:17:14] Greg Vetter: So Kevin Plank Scott Plank are brothers, and they're both large shareholders in Under Armor, and they really, really care about Baltimore. And so one of their main guys for Sagamore Ventures is kind of what their private stuff is called, is named Damian Costa. And he's a wonderful, wonderful guy, former Navy SEAL, super smart. and he was at the time out in the community trying to see what brands were doing what in the Baltimore area that could potentially have a similar impact to this region that Under Armor did. Any brand. Yeah. It was like there was a skateboard company, and there was a bag company, and there was us, and there was all these different types of groups around Baltimore, and he was looking to invest in them. So we ended up, meeting somewhere and just kind of hit it off. And I was my normal self and he was his normal self. And he was like, you know, you may just be crazy enough to build the next great salad dressing brand. And so that's how it all happened. And then we met Kevin Plank Scott and they came in toward the facility and, you know, really believed in us and put the money where their mouth was, I guess. And so they've been really great partners over the past. I guess they invested in 2015. past four years. It's been a journey.
[00:18:40] Trey Lockerbie: What did the initial investment do for you guys in 2015 and was it significant enough to do what you needed to do?
[00:18:46] Greg Vetter: Yeah, I mean the initial investment allowed us to really certify ourselves organic, launch it nationally for a national reset and all the major retailers and then propel us forward with a packaging refresh. And so without that, I mean, when we did that packaging refresh and did kind of a reformulation and a certification of organic, it increased our shelf sales by 300%. And so it was just, you know, timing's everything in life. And it was perfect timing for us to kind of go from high school to college and really just take it to the next level. So it was really important. And it was significant.
[00:19:29] Trey Lockerbie: So after the investment, sounds like you guys were on fire. Yep. How do you stay level headed when you're growing that fast? Because there's got to be pressure to accelerate, to run faster than anyone, even when it might not be in your interest to do so.
[00:19:44] Greg Vetter: Well, I think sometimes we did go too far. The key to this game is surrounding yourself with people that you really trust and have your best interest at heart, because a lot of people don't, right? It's all about the exit. It's all about, you know, quick money in, quick money out. You know, that can go for investors and that can go for employees, too. And so a lot of times when we've made the wrong decisions, which there have been about a million, it was because we trusted the wrong people that had the wrong intentions and the wrong line of sight. And I think the great part about us being able to recoup whatever happened is we're willing to fight for what we believe in. And a lot of people aren't. The fight to stay on track is such a hard one. And it takes so much work, and it takes so many tough decisions and tough conversations. It's just not for the faint of heart. And so there was definitely a lot of let's go chase top line, right? There was definitely a lot of let's chase top line or let's beat this competitor because we just want to go beat them. And the strategy or the rationale looking back now was incorrect. And I really think in recent years, we've just done what we do best. We focus on ourselves. We focus on quality. We focus on our consumer. We focus on our employees. And we really say, OK, this is what we want to do. And this is the pace that we should be operating in. And it's been working.
[00:21:23] Trey Lockerbie: If you could go back and identify those characteristics and qualities of the people that gave you the wrong advice, what would you have identified? What would be the tell, I guess?
[00:21:36] Greg Vetter: That's a hard one. Because you don't really know until they're in there. Because I think so often, everybody does a really great job in the interview process of telling you exactly what you want to hear for that specific role. And not until times get a little tough or greed sneaks in, do you actually see people's true colors? And so in that sense, you just have to be super protective of your culture. And so we try and run it like a professional sports team or a college sports team. There's a depth chart. We have to protect the culture. We're going for these goals or these championships. And if you are a net negative, to this brand and to this culture, then you're no longer going to be a part of it. And so, you know, I think that's definitely an approach that has helped us in recent years.
[00:22:38] Trey Lockerbie: Was it most challenging to find advisors that you could trust or employees that you could trust? It's equal.
[00:22:44] Greg Vetter: Yeah. Because I think the motivations of both are very similar. You know, I think a lot of advisors want to come in and almost be employees sometimes. And I think sometimes some employees want to be advisors. So it's the same.
[00:23:00] Trey Lockerbie: As you were growing really, really fast, there was a lot written about Tessie Mays and there were projections for where you would be in terms of revenue and in what years and whatnot. Some of those didn't really work out the way they had been reported on. Do you have any regrets about that, sort of the way that that was portrayed?
[00:23:19] Greg Vetter: I don't have any regrets because it taught us who to trust. And it taught us how to communicate it. And it taught us what was important. Because I think at that time, we were trusting the wrong people. Some were advisors, some were employees. We were trusting the wrong marketing and PR consultants. We were trusting the wrong motivations of some people. We were trusting the impact of those types of outlets and what they were going to do for our business?
[00:23:53] Trey Lockerbie: I should give our listeners some context. I mean, it was out there that you would be a $100 million company or at least 100 million in sales in a couple of years of whenever that publication or that article was written, which that's a- It's a lofty goal. That's a very lofty goal to go from where you were, which is what I want to say 30 million. Then in two years, you'd be at 100 or something like that.
[00:24:13] Greg Vetter: Yeah.
[00:24:13] Trey Lockerbie: I mean, that's pretty aggressive.
[00:24:16] Greg Vetter: All you can do is learn from your mistakes, and I think we have a different view on growth now, and we have a different respect for the process than we did at that time, and that's all you can do. You can learn, and you can trust people, and you can realize what's important, and focus on those things every day. Were there any offers to buy the company outright? Yeah, we've had a couple.
[00:24:39] Trey Lockerbie: Yeah. Yep. You've turned them down, obviously.
[00:24:41] Greg Vetter: I think the universe has turned them down. Two of the groups ended up getting acquired during the process. Oh, okay. And so... None of them got really, really, really heavy, but we were in that middle stage of meeting executives, discussing what does this look like in a year, two years, or three years? Would you want to stay on in a year, two, or three years? They never really felt right. I don't really think that we were onto something big, but the interest has always been there. We've had interest since I think we got our first offer in like 2015, but everybody's looking for a value deal.
[00:25:28] Trey Lockerbie: It is what it is. So what would motivate you to sell? Because this is a company that you built from the ground up. You and your family have the blood, sweat and tears to show for it. What would it take?
[00:25:43] Greg Vetter: You know, I don't know. I think everything has a life cycle. I don't think We're at the end of our life cycle. I think we're at the beginning. I think if we had not launched into the shelf stable and pantry world, the refrigerated world outside of completely new product extensions was reaching its limit of where we could go outside of international. And so once we were able to create the quality standards in shelf stable with our creamy dressings, because that was really the true test. Could we make a clean, shelf stable, organic, ranch dressing without thickening agents or any kind of weird natural flavors, citric acids, etc.
[00:26:32] Trey Lockerbie: That also tasted amazing.
[00:26:34] Greg Vetter: That tasted amazing, right? Because that was it. And once we did that, it changed our perspective of what the life cycle was going to be.
[00:26:43] Trey Lockerbie: So the shelf-stable line critical to your growth strategy going forward?
[00:26:46] Greg Vetter: 100%, right? The big component of our growth strategy moving forward is the Tessie Maze pantry line. The Tessie Maze classic refrigerated dressing line isn't going anywhere. We've actually seen sales increase and continue to increase even with the launch of the pantry line, which has been really cool to see. But now what you're looking at is you're looking at 10 years of work, 10 years of sweat equity with your customers, and now you're giving them something that they've been asking for for a really long time. And it has taken us call it six months to get into the same amount of grocery stores that it took us 10 years to get into in the refrigerator line. And so now it's about getting the right skews on the shelf. And we're just seeing unbelievable returns and impact with this shelf stable line from the moment it hits the shelf. So we're really, really excited about it. And when you look at the size of that category versus the size of the refrigerated dressing category, you can see that we are now, we're at the starting line, right? And it's looking promising.
[00:27:59] Trey Lockerbie: If there are brands or entrepreneurs out there that you really respect and think highly enough of to say, okay, I would love for Tessie Mays to look like this brand or follow this brand's path, or I'd love to follow the path of this particular entrepreneur, are those people, are those brands out there?
[00:28:16] Greg Vetter: There's not one that is all-encompassing. I think there's probably a couple different that do really cool stuff at different stages of their growth and life cycle. If you look at what Kind Bar did, I thought that was really awesome. If you look at what Patagonia continues to do, I think that's unbelievable. If you look at what Howard Schultz did with coffee in the beginning stages of what Starbucks was, I think that's unbelievable. If you look at what Lululemon did in the beginning stages, that's unbelievable. If you look at what Kevin Plank Scott Plank did with Under Armor, that's unbelievable. And so those types of guys and gals that just kind of went out, created something out of nothing, did it against all odds, and somehow were left standing, I think that that's amazing. And so again, I've read all the books that you can read on all those people, and they're all amazing and wonderful. And I respect different aspects of their journeys at different times. And so that's how I look at it.
[00:29:23] Trey Lockerbie: Well, I sincerely appreciate the time, Greg. I know you're a busy guy, and I appreciate you coming out this way. Good luck with everything going forward. And thanks for introducing me to Testimase, because it's pretty fantastic stuff.
[00:29:36] Greg Vetter: It was great meeting you.
[00:29:37] Trey Lockerbie: All right. All right. That brings us to the end of episode 182. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks to our guest, Greg Vetter. You can catch both Taste Radio and Taste Radio Insider on Taste Radio, the Apple Podcasts app, Stitcher, Google Play, SoundCloud, or Spotify. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at Taste Radio. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
